on www.organizingcreativity.com/2018/02/what-makes-a-good-outliner/

someone says what are the main features that makes a good outliner

what's the best outliner you use? please include your main use that sets the outliner apart from all the other software/outliners

would it be workflowy at the current point in time? http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/8021/0/workflowy-roadmap


---


i'd need an outliner of each that

1) had a tree view/structure of the folders/files/notes at all time (yes dynalist has this but it's incredibly limited in so many ways)

2) or one that had significantly better search like being able to search 'title only' (because with too much info/notes, you'd have to have way way better search)

As noted elsewhere, I think the two "best" I use are Notecase Pro - a two pane outliner that really does everything and more that I need it to - except let me work with it on a Chromebook or iPad (there is a Mac version). I mostly do writing, and it provides an encrypted solution. But it doesn't do outlines at the paragraph level.

Dynalist does - a sort of rapid-development version of Workflowy. Cloud based. Auto-backups to Dropbox and Chrome. Usable on anything.

I do like Checkvist - another fine writers tools with terrific export functions. I never bit on it, though - as I recall, I just found the text screen too wide. But it seemed like, in the end, it might be the most powerful. Great calendar integration, and really keyboard friendly. I'd have to see what they're doing with mobile now.

The outliner I use daily is Dynalist, but I wouldn't necessarily say it is overall the best outliner. It's just that it has features that work for me:

- quick and easy entry and structuring of information
- inline notes
- availability for use on Windows, MacOS and iOS
- hoisting and folding
- favoriting (so I can winnow all my many outlines down to the ones I need access to regularly)
- color-coding of entries so I can separate variabilities (for example, I keep a bullet journal in Dynalist and the color-coding allows me to separate work related entries from others)
- exporting in useful formats
- folders that can be nested for organizing my outlines
- applying checkboxes on an entry by entry basis

Some other, but not crucial, features I like:

- tagging
- the ability to add due dates
- off-line, desktop versions

Steve Z.

On the other hand, I still think the best outliner remains Tinderbox. I wrote about the reasons here:

https://welcometosherwood.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/outlining-with-tinderbox-6-6-2-to-be-precise/

And the app has only gotten more powerful in version 7. I don't use it every day because it is only available for MacOS.

Steve Z.

Excellent piece, Steve, thanks for posting. "Banging out an outline" in ways that are obvious is a big piece of what I need, too. What I like about Dynalist (and Outlinely) as opposed to Checkvist (as good as it is), is the plain text editing feel. Modeless editing is easy. On the other hand, there's power in two modes (so much simpler to manipulate structure with a few keystrokes), but there's also that little jolt as you move from just editing to waiting for the little software toggle switch to flip. I suspect that Tinderbox is just more firepower than I need. But then I continue to be drawn to Emacs, which is a rabbit hole that runs to Pelucidar. At any rate, I appreciate your writing.

Thanks for the comments, Jaslar. Speaking of appreciation, I appreciate your reference to Pellucidar!

Dynalist seems to be the best option right now. And the developers are very active. If you find it limited I suggest working with Dynalist to improve their product. Workflowy has picked up a bit recently, but I'm still not convinced that they can catch up. Outlinely hasn't updated in 7 months. Mubu (Chinese only) has a nice native app on iOS but otherwise is somewhat more limited than Dynalist (not to mention keeping your data on Chinese servers). I don't like OmniOutliner at all. That's pretty much it as far as I'm concerned. I don't know of any other apps out there that meet my needs for a decent outliner. I know other people on this forum are perfectly happy to use folding text editors, task managers, and other apps as an outliner, but I need a dedicated outliner for some of my work and these are the only ones I've been able to find that are any good. Like I said, since Dynalist seems to be the best of the lot, it seems worth supporting their efforts. It isn't just a matter of what is the best right now, but which app shows the most potential to grow in the near future, and for me that is Dynalist. (Take a look at their roadmap on Trello.)

Outlinely had potential, but as noted it hasn't been updated in quite a while, its developer has remained anonymous, and its blog is defunct. Not good signs.

Checkvist is one alternative I'm not sure has been given a lot of attention. I haven't parsed its details but it seems to offer the same general feature-set and UI as Workflowy/Dynalist, and offers an open API for integrations with Zapier and other tools (like Evernote or Asana). I haven't used it, but it also has a mobile app in addition to web view. Free, with pro version that add 1Gb attachments (no inline image attachments though), calendar integration, repeating tasks and reminders, read-only sharing and Dropbox integration. Pricing is $39/yr or $3.90/month compared to Dynalist's $96/yr $9.99/month and Workflowy's $49/yr $4.99/month

I'm so thoroughly enamored of NoteCase Pro that I aid in its development as a volunteer.

I do a lot of online research and writing in aid of legal research and historical articles, as well as other notetaking.

NC Pro has a multitude of features. Everything I expect from a client-side outliner, but most importantly for me:

* Runs on multiple operating systems, *nix, OS X, WIndows, etc.
* Exports to simple HTML with a hyperlinked table of contents, suitable for pasting to all online apps that accept raw HTML.
* Hierarchical and flat list views of nodes (list view can be filled by, inter alia, user actions, document search, and scripts; enables to escape the limits of the hierarchy; e.g., double-click on a tag to list all nodes that have that tag; list view is in memory only)
* It just may be the most extensible outliner on the market, currently with 373 programmable methods exported to the embedded and extremely fast Lua script interpreter (one of those methods can execute most user actions). I've written well over 500 extensions for it.

Other notable features:

* customizable GUI with 3-5 panes (tree view, list view, note pane, tags pane, attachments pane; tags pane can be small or full column)
* rich text editing
* very large number of import/export formats
* strong document encryption
* five native file formats
* networked distribution, installation, and updating of plugins.
* up to 20 documents loaded concurrently
* clipboard history of clips made with other programs
* hoisting
* play/record audio notes
* per document node bookmarking
* hyperlink to nodes and inline text
* node cloning (maintains ability to edit from the original or any clone)
* node file attachments
* node tagging
* node and document custom properties
* node joining and splitting
* columns views and sorts by 14 node properties plus custom node properties
* extremely versatile document search: text string, Perl-Compatible regular expressions, boolean (search results can be displayed in list view of all nodes with hits)
* auto-linkification of URLs
* document sync via a networkable server
* document merge with diff display
* AutoCompletion of strings
* AutoReplace abbreviation expansion (can also launch scripts)
* spellchecker support
* markup and code syntax highlighting
* customizable toolbars and keyboard shortcuts
* multiple level undo and redo
* shares 2 native document formats with NoteCase Pro Android version (less mature), enabling synchronization
* ships with a wide variety of scripts

There's a more detailed feature list here. http://notecasepro.com/features.php

While the NC Pro basic features are simple to use, the program is capable of satisfying some of the wildest urges of a outliner geek user. It scratches my itches.

Marbux wrote:

I'm so thoroughly enamored of NoteCase Pro that I aid in its development
as a volunteer.

Notecase Pro is a very descent software. Unfortunately, even the last version for macOS (v4.3.4) is only 32-bit. So it wil not run anymore under future versions of macOS.

I'm sorry but I have to say it: Emacs org-mode is the best outliner.

At least on Windows there is really no competition -- which has been really frustrating for me -- and it doesn't look like there is anything on the way. On the Mac there is some decent software available. But when it comes to features org-mode has it all: text editing, structure editing, column view, latex support, all kinds of linking and tagging, e-mail integration, calendar integration, contacts integration, web-browsing, bookmarking, password management, exporting (via the standard org-export or with pandoc [basically into every possible text format including table-of-contents, formatted citations, cross-references with template support and automation]), making websites, publishing to blogs etc.

Of course there is the "learning curve" argument. But (1) it's justified by the feature list, (2) it's really not that hard to learn. If you can learn Python-scripting for ConnectedText or LUA-scripting for NoteCase, then I would assume you can also learn a little elisp to customize Emacs/org-mode. (Most of it can be copied from public configuration files on GitHub anyway).

Bernhard wrote:

Notecase Pro is a very descent software.

It should be decent, of course! Sorry.

Like Steve Z., I think that the best outliner that I have current experience of is Tinderbox. It is, of course, only for the Mac and its learning curve is legendary. But its capabilities are extraordinary.

At a day-to-day level, I favour OmniOutliner. Yes, I know that for some it seems a lot of shine and not a huge amount of substance. For me, its biggest flaw is that it doesn't have clones. But what it does have is staying-power. It's been developed on and off since the early days of Steve Jobs' second coming at Apple, and the nature of Omni's development team (and the other products they've created) means that there's a good chance it will continue to be developed for some while yet. If you decide to learn how to use OmniOutliner, which is anyway not difficult, you can be fairly sure that it will still be there in active development next year and the years after.

On Windows, I find InfoQube to meet virtually all of my requirements. It goes way beyond Ecco Pro's capabilities and is very reliable with data. Very close in second place is Ultra Recall.

Although I really like Scrivener (it has a decent outliner) I do most of my drafts in WhizFolders. Why? Not sure - it does what I want it to do and I've used it for a very long time. RightNote deserves mention too. At times I consider using it for my drafts because WhizFolders can get clumsy when dealing with tables, images and attachments.

I would use NoteCase more but its rendering of web clips, limited formatting, and lack of tables restricts me.

Jon

One thing I forgot to mention is WhizFolders' ability to open various topics in their own window. This coupled with having several WhizFolders documents open provides great flexibility.

Jon

Jon Polish wrote:

On Windows, I find InfoQube to meet virtually all of my requirements. It goes way beyond Ecco Pro's capabilities and is very reliable with data.

Thanks for mentioning InfoQube Jon ! I do my best to provide the best information management tool, outliner-like or not (because outliners are not always the Holy Grail)
I'm sure you'll like v108 even more, as it includes 24 new features and 20+ bug fixes:
http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/4145

Pierre
IQ Designer

My current top tools are:

Notion.so, v2: This is a web and desktop app with a novel flexible data model. Notes can be children of other notes (standard stuff), but also simulateously exist across a variety of metadata-supported views (calendars, kanban boards, database tables, etc.). Like Ecco, you can create subitems from any view, so you can for example create subnotes directly on a calendar item. The user interface is very good, it's got a lot of buzz, and the company has venture capital backing, so I'm hoping it stays around for a while.

Tinderbox: Unfortunately Mac only and can sometimes feel like a research project, but there aren't any other really good tools for using spatial views to make help sense of a large jumble of notes with arbitrary metadata. Really only necessary for complicated projects, but invaluable if you need it.

Scrivener 3: Solid writing tool, versatile, quite impressive in the latest version.

I'm not using Emacs Org-mode as much any more, but it deserves an honorable mention because it's able to do an enormous amount of things if you're willing to put in the time. Tiddlywiki is the same way. It *can* do everything ConnectedText used to do, but using it beyond a basic level requires getting involved in the community because everything is custom (batteries are not included) and resources are spread everywhere. It's actually more of a rabbit hole than Org-mode, which does come with some batteries included.

Bernhard wrote:

Notecase Pro is a very descent software. Unfortunately, even the last
version for macOS (v4.3.4) is only 32-bit. So it wil not run anymore
under future versions of macOS.

I'm informed by Miro that 64-bit macOS will be supported when the port of the program to GTK 3 is complete (now in progress; I'm running a GTK 3 development build on Linux).

Does this mean that formatting in notes (tables, bullets, numbered lists) will be improved or implemented?

Jon

Marbux wrote:

Bernhard wrote:

>Notecase Pro is a very descent software. Unfortunately, even the last
>version for macOS (v4.3.4) is only 32-bit. So it wil not run anymore
>under future versions of macOS.

I'm informed by Miro that 64-bit macOS will be supported when the port
of the program to GTK 3 is complete (now in progress; I'm running a GTK
3 development build on Linux).

Whenever I refer to Stephen Stephen Zeoli's Tinderbox tutorials, I'm immediately compelled to open Tinderbox and pour my life into it. Perhaps I should remove the competing programs from my Mac altogether. I remember doing that with Ecco Pro in my Windows days.

Jeffery

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

On the other hand, I still think the best outliner remains Tinderbox. I
wrote about the reasons here:

https://welcometosherwood.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/outlining-with-tinderbox-6-6-2-to-be-precise/

And the app has only gotten more powerful in version 7. I don't use it
every day because it is only available for MacOS.

Steve Z.

It's nice of you to say that. Thank you.

I started writing about Tinderbox several years ago when Scrivener users got a special discount on Tbx and a lot of them bought it, then complained they couldn't figure out how to use it. I tried to convince those who'd already invested in the app to see that they could do a lot with it without knowing all the deep, intricate techniques. I've never tried to convince anyone to buy the app, only not to be overly intimidated by it if they already had spent the money. Just using the Map view without agents, or aliases or syntax can be really helpful.

Anyway, if I've helped a bit, I'm glad to know it.

Steve Z.


Jeffery Smith wrote:

Whenever I refer to Stephen Stephen Zeoli's Tinderbox tutorials, I'm
immediately compelled to open Tinderbox and pour my life into it.
Perhaps I should remove the competing programs from my Mac altogether. I
remember doing that with Ecco Pro in my Windows days.

Jeffery

Pierre Paul Landry wrote:

Thanks for mentioning InfoQube Jon ! I do my best to provide the best
information management tool, outliner-like or not (because outliners are
not always the Holy Grail)

You should look into your InfoQube installation. I now get a serious virus warning from the latest installer download.

Lothar Scholz wrote:

You should look into your InfoQube installation. I now get a serious virus warning from the latest installer download.

Thanks Lothar for reporting this. What anti-virus are you using ?

I just re-tested and it shows it is clean here...

Also did a scan on VirusTotal. Here is the report:
https://www.virustotal.com/#/file/c6c28526e64a37fb322f52932caae8bd751e9ba51a610f8d20e102b36a4c627b/detection

Out of 67 anti-virus, only 1 reported a virus: BACKDOOR.Trojan from Dr Web, a common false positive.

Perhaps try to re-download.

HTH !

Pierre

Looks like this thread has turned into our usual annual review, so I'll add my reflections then.

I haven't started using any new software or service in the past year. If anything, I have been using fewer, though my usage pattern has changed.

My most frequently used outliners are WorkFlowy and Gingko. I use these two on a daily basis. Besides being great outliners, the main reason behind it is the fact that they're online, so I can use them across various devices, and also because I can have them automatically open in a Chrome tab (and most of the time I have multiple tabs with them open), so they also work well as reminders of the various projects and categories of tasks I work on.

On my Chromebooks I do most of my plain text writing in Caret, and on Windows I use an old version of NoteTab for snippets, and WriteMonkey v. 2.7 for longer pieces.

ConnectedText is still my main notes database, but I use it less often now for other types of organising, as I only turn on my Windows laptop if I really have to; otherwise I much prefer to work online on one of my Chromebooks.

For handwritten notes I'm still using Boogie Board Sync.

So it looks like I've cured my CRIMP as far as software are concerned. I'm a lot more interested now in trying out new organisational processes and tool chains with stuff I already have (in fact that's another reason why I like WorkFlowy and Gingko, because they are so pliable towards new uses), or adding in analogue bits, such as whiteboards or paper index cards.

But I still salivate after cool new hardware that I can't afford, such as the Google Pixelbook, or the other Chromebooks with stylus support that are starting to come out, or various monochrome note-taking devices that have been mentioned recently on this forum.

Emacs Org mode user here.

Enough has been said about it elsewhere but I'll add one change for me since I began using it in 2015. It may interest a few here.

I now pay $7 a month for a private Github account so I can post my files online and have access to them anywhere. Github supports org files, so when they're uploaded via Git or Github's desktop app they're properly formatted. You can search and edit files online using Github's interface if needed, and there's a useful Kanban-style organizational tool I've begun to use for projects.

It's geeky as hell, but I like that Emacs satisfies most of my CRIMP tendencies and will likely be around for another 42 years. That's about two decades longer than I'm likely to be around.