Inspiration is old and, somewhere along the line, repositioned itself for the education market BUT it's still a very capable general outliner that was (perhaps) the first to combine an outliner with a mind map application.

Like TreePad, it was one of the first but still one of the best at what it does. If you haven't tried it, you probably should.

For collecting notes and for extensive word processing which needs breaking into segments, I reach for TreePad before dumping the file into Word. For planning those extensive and segmented word processing projects and for organizing thoughts, I often first start with Inspiration before dumping it into TreePad and then Word.

Of course, it would be nice if Microsoft cared enough about its users to stop treating Office like a cash cow and put some R&D into adding these features seamlessly into Word BUT this process works very well for me.

Those who are as fed up as I am about paying MS a regular subscription for Office365 might want to take a look at SoftMaker Office, a German software suite that's now available for Windows, Linux and Mac and uses MS file formats as its own native file formats. I can thoroughly recommend the latest version.

I have grave doubts about the subscription model, I must say. The big companies in particular (Adobe, Microsoft) seem to feel that once you're a subscriber, they can modify their software in any way they want to (usually with a strategic objective in mind, like getting you to store all your data in their respective Clouds), without consulting you or balancing these changes against user input (OneNote is a good example).

As for subscriptions to outliner software - well, colour me disillusioned, but I'm not convinced by that model, either. Let's face it, it's inherently anti-CRIMP; now you have to subscribe to apps if you want to continue playing with them, rather than having them tucked away on a hard drive for the occasional play, nostalgic revisit or blinding revelation (when you suddenly realise exactly how that strange little app you've always been drawn to can actually be put to constructive use).

Sorry, rambling this morning; this isn't very relevant to the topic!

Unfortunately it looks like the next version of MyInfo will be going down the 'Software as a Sentence' route.

If more companies jump on this bandwagon it could become the norm ! :(

MadaboutDana wrote:

I have grave doubts about the subscription model, I must say. The big
companies in particular (Adobe, Microsoft) seem to feel that once you're
a subscriber, they can modify their software in any way they want to
(usually with a strategic objective in mind, like getting you to store
all your data in their respective Clouds), without consulting you or
balancing these changes against user input (OneNote is a good example).

Not only that. They can raise the price whenever they feel like it, abusing the captive audience. Adobe hiked up the monthly subscription for the Creative Cloud from GBP15 to GBP 25 this year, which is a crazy increase.

As for subscriptions to outliner software - well, colour me
disillusioned, but I'm not convinced by that model, either. Let's face
it, it's inherently anti-CRIMP

It will inevitably reduce competition because it limits consumers' willingness to try out new things. Once you've reached the limit of subscriptions you can personally afford, it acts as a disincentive to looking at new stuff. I could see this leading to monopolies and killing of innovation.

Unfortunately subscriptions are attractive to providers because it is in human nature that people forget about their subscriptions or lose oversight about their real cost.

I have at least two subscriptions in the family that I need to cancel but I've been too busy to get around to it, as it involves some work, such as moving data off those services, finding alternatives, and keeping track of renewal dates to pick the best moment to cancel. In the meantime I keep paying, like a mug.

At the same time it's preventing me from considering other purchases or subscriptions. So the industry is shooting itself in the foot to some extent. There will have to be a moment when the market reached saturation, when everyone has maxed out on the subscriptions they can afford. What then? Small providers, startups etc. will struggle to find customers, once Adobe, MS, Dropbox, Evernote etc. mopped up most of that disposable income.

No, there was no sarcasm intended.

My first post in this thread made it clear that I use Windows and was relating my experience with Windows based outliners. I had neglected to acknowledge AllMyNotes so I did. I also neglected to mention Info Select and some mind managers (Freeplane, XMind and TheBrain) which can be pressed into service as outliners (some have outliner-type trees).

I agree with your comments about AllMyNotes. It is hard on my eyes and the interface is more cartoon-like. There are some interesting features though, but it has been a long time since I looked at the program and I only vaguely remember what they are.

Donovan wrote:

Jon Polish wrote:
Although I would encourage learning IQ (it really is that good), have
>you looked at AllMyNotes? It may satisfy your needs. And, it is a
>Windows program with installed and portable versions.
>

Hi Jon, I honestly am not sure if there's a touch of sarcasm in your
response to user cicerosc?
AllMyNotes is about as far as you can get from IQ. From one extreme to
another. AMN, in my opinion, has a user interface best suited for
primary school children -- with its cutesy icons and colors.
I actually had a license for my 12 year-old and ran into problems with a
licensing issue that was so petty on the part of the developer that it
ruined it for me and my child. Again - IN MY OPINION - it's very
childish in presentation and developer communication.

Re Dr Andus' post about subscriptions above: various applications exist that can help to track subscriptions - for example Dues (http://alexdenk.eu/mywork/dues.html My experience is with macOS and iOS only, but I feel certain there must be choices on the other platforms. And of course there's always the option of a spreadsheet programme.

Of course also, these applications only solve half the problem. The other half tends to involve self-discipline! But I have found them moderately helpful, to the extent that I have recently been able to juggle various subs, cancelling some and signing up for others as replacements.

Hugh wrote:

Re Dr Andus' post about subscriptions above: various applications exist
that can help to track subscriptions - for example Dues
(http://alexdenk.eu/mywork/dues.html My experience is with macOS and
iOS only, but I feel certain there must be choices on the other
platforms. And of course there's always the option of a spreadsheet
programme.

Thanks for the suggestion. So far I've kept a list in WorkFlowy, but I haven't been disciplined enough to check how well I tracked the expiry and renewal dates in Google Calendar. I will go with the spreadsheet idea and create a separate Google Sheet for this.

But there is also an insiduous aspect to the way subscriptions just accumulate across the various devices and users in a family...

P.S. And there are also quasi-subscriptions, such as the annual "upgrade protection" schemes.

But in those cases at least you don't lose access to the software if you decide not to pay annually.

Regarding subscriptions: It is one thing when a new piece of software goes subscription from the start. You know what you're agreeing to when you adopt the application. It's a whole other thing when an application you've bought goes to a subscription (i.e Ulysses, DayOne) and now you have to pay to reliably continue to use it -- I say reliably, because you can still use the software, you just don't get any fixes or OS updates. I wrote this elsewhere, but it is like buying a car and then being told you have to lease it if you want to get its tires rotated and its oil changed.

Steve Z.

Dr Andus wrote:

At the same time it's preventing me from considering other purchases or
subscriptions. So the industry is shooting itself in the foot to some
extent.

Indeed, in more ways than one:
http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/5164/0/the-cloud-shooting-itself-on-the-foot-dispatchiocc-and-docom

Dr Andus wrote:

P.S. And there are also quasi-subscriptions, such as the annual "upgrade
protection" schemes.

Mind Manager, under Corel, is the latest on this bandwagon:
http://www.outlinersoftware.com/messages/viewm/30396

There's a lot of talk on this forum about "supporting" small developers. A subscription scheme likely is the best way to support small developers, as it gives them a steady stream of income from their limited number of users. It seems a bit hypocritical to be deadset against subscriptions when that is an ideal business model for small developers and those who wish to support them - and in turn, gain support from them, in terms of bug fixes, troubleshooting, and answers to questions.

tightbeam wrote:

There's a lot of talk on this forum about "supporting" small developers.
A subscription scheme likely is the best way to support small
developers, as it gives them a steady stream of income from their
limited number of users. It seems a bit hypocritical to be deadset
against subscriptions when that is an ideal business model for small
developers and those who wish to support them - and in turn, gain
support from them, in terms of bug fixes, troubleshooting, and answers
to questions.

Maybe the "subscription" topic should be moved to its own thread...

Anyway, even if it that is true, which I doubt, I hate subscriptions as a business model, I much prefer the traditional, and I have given lots of $$ to small developers with good products (e.g.Andy's Hyperplan) and there's almost no chance I'll support startup developers who try the subscription model.

For me, as a freelance, the problems with subscription schemes are:

- A small number of low monthly fees turns rapidly into a large annual cost. $10/month? Not much. 10 or 15 sees of $10/month? Much more. I could easily commit to $1500-$2000 a year, without trying.
- Subs turn my software costs from variable (I but when I need to and can fund the cost) to fixed (I pay whether I need to/can afford it or not). I'm a freelance - sometimes I'm not working, at which time, I want to reduce my outgoings. When I'm working, I can but what I need. I work at different rates - I can control my spend to fit.
- I think subs turn out to be expensive - $10/month for 5 years is $600 - that's what apps used to cost 20 years and more ago

All that comes before one get to whether or not the developer will make good on delivering updates and enhancements. Some will, but many won't, and I think the good (mostly small) developers will get hit hard when customers find themselves being let down by the more cynical competitors.

I agree that subs work well for developers - I'm not convinced they work well for customers

tightbeam wrote:

There's a lot of talk on this forum about "supporting" small developers.
A subscription scheme likely is the best way to support small
developers, as it gives them a steady stream of income from their
limited number of users. It seems a bit hypocritical to be deadset
against subscriptions when that is an ideal business model for small
developers and those who wish to support them - and in turn, gain
support from them, in terms of bug fixes, troubleshooting, and answers
to questions.

Honestly, I think software you should be a lot more expensive. While there is a constant flow of new software and Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon etc. can claim that they have X million apps available on their stores, most of those are just bad. As the price of software declined, so did the quality. The only companies that can afford to hike up their prices are 'big players' like Adobe or Apple who made their customers believe (counterfactually) that they need their "apps". I cannot really think of any exceptions. Sometimes Scrivener is mentioned as a kind of success story. I don't use Scrivener but it looks like it is on a very slow release cycle. (Also psychologically: Scrivener is advertised specifically for writing books. Many people seem to engage in the delusion that they could write a book and then probably buy a Scrivener license and stop using it after a couple days or weeks -- similar to how a gym makes money: collecting dues from the people who never train but are to lazy to cancel.) Another example would be Tinderbox but I don't know anything about their actual revenue or business model.

Also "coding" has become more popular, while "programming" is dying. Most new programs in the productivity space are quick and dirty high-level language + some web-framework implementations without any thought about the future. Which can easily be gathered from the hundreds of blog posts that go like: "We went from idea to launch X days". Many of those stupid JavaScript apps cannot even run offline or export data in a usable format but they sure have emoji support and run all your notes, appointments etc. through some 'analytics software' to improve your "experience". It's all about the "experience" (coding) instead of solving relevant problems (programming).

The most obvious problem -- which is very apparent on this and other forums -- is that most people are just not willing to pay substantial amounts of money for software. By substantial I mean somewhere between 200 and 1500$ for a license. To me the choice between running a small software company like a one-person operation + paying for health insurance + retirement fund + no vacation time etc. on the one hand and getting a solid pay-check as a programmer at some company seems obvious when the conditions are: (1) People complain about the software being to expensive, (2) People post their extremely negative "reviews" of the software all over the internet and encourage other people not to use it because the developer, for example, wasn't nice enough when they used the support e-mail to ask stupid questions to check the response time, and, (3) big companies offering "free" software to compete with that can be used to fill up a 3500$ MacBook just as well.

Conclusion: It will only get worse from here on. You are on your own. If you want quality software you will either have to write it your self or hope that somebody else will (basically sacrifice themselves for you). [Maybe programmers could also form communities in Thailand or somewhere similar to take advantage of lower living costs and work remotely for the international software market.............]

This group has given more money to more small developers than any average software users by orders of magnitude. Suggesting that we are hypocrites unless we are willing to make annual commitments to small developers is ludicrous.

tightbeam wrote:

There's a lot of talk on this forum about "supporting" small developers.
A subscription scheme likely is the best way to support small
developers, as it gives them a steady stream of income from their
limited number of users. It seems a bit hypocritical to be deadset
against subscriptions when that is an ideal business model for small
developers and those who wish to support them - and in turn, gain
support from them, in terms of bug fixes, troubleshooting, and answers
to questions.

Yes, I'd agree with Stephen here. We CRIMPers are by nature inclined to make those donations or buy those shareware licences that other folk prefer to shun.

That's because we genuinely do appreciate the time and thought that goes into development, especially by passionate small developers.

Subscriptions may have their place, but they don't really solve the problem. I'd much rather developers take Scrivener's approach by explaining clearly to users (a) what they're working on, (b) when it's [probably] going to appear and (c) what it's going to cost when it's finished. This makes it much easier to decide which apps are keepers. The most promising approach to subscriptions to date has been the Setapp one, but I'm not sure how successful it's being for the various small developers involved.

Incidentally, the idea that Scrivener's somehow benefiting from a "buy, play, then never use again" model is somewhat absurd! People are always buying software (notably utilities) that get used once and then never again. There's no commercial trickery involved, just human (monkey) curiosity.

I think there is a distinction between what this group does (CRIMP and CRIMP again) and what makes a sustainable model for a software developer. I think of something like SmartDown or Outlinely. I bought both versions of SmartDown before the developer abandoned the product to work on IAWriter. But I still have the software, and can continue to use it. It was my tip of the hat to some clever work that I admired. I don't use Outlinely at all, mainly because I seem to work more on Windows machines at work, and a Chromebook at home these days. But I don't mind having contributed a year's subscription to it. I just wish I could keep it, to divert me for a day or two sometime in the future, or apply to some work project that's a good fit for it.

I used Workflowy for about three years, on the subscription model. After I canceled, I can no longer use the product at all - although I was at least able to export and import it to another platform. The same thing will happen with Outlinely.

So it seems that the subscription model may benefit the software developer more than the user. As for how the dollars actually work out for software developers, I can't say. But some fine products, once supported by their users, might just disappear altogether under this model. And that seems a shame.

jaslar wrote:

I used Workflowy for about three years, on the subscription model. After
I canceled, I can no longer use the product at all - although I was at
least able to export and import it to another platform. The same thing
will happen with Outlinely.

So it seems that the subscription model may benefit the software
developer more than the user.

I don't begrudge devs whose subscriptions require people to pay for a service, and then don't let them use it after they stop paying. Can you still use Netflix's recommendation engine customized based on your ratings if you stop paying?

Also, it depends on the app. For example, Day One is free for a single journal with 1 image attachment/day, and export. Premium subscription gets you sync across different devices and unlimited journals and images, and more. But, unless I'm mistaken, you can still use the product pretty well for free, still access all additional journals, and still export any journals created.

You speak for *everyone* in the group? That's ludicrous. Outlining software is such a niche that paying a small developer twenty or thirty bucks for his product likely won't keep him going forever, and certainly not if he doesn't have a full-time job elsewhere. Once the faithful have paid for their licenses, how big is the rest of the market? A subscription *might* be the solution - but as someone else posted, subscriptions are good for developers, not for customers.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

This group has given more money to more small developers than any
average software users by orders of magnitude. Suggesting that we are
hypocrites unless we are willing to make annual commitments to small
developers is ludicrous.

tightbeam wrote:
There's a lot of talk on this forum about "supporting" small developers.
>A subscription scheme likely is the best way to support small
>developers, as it gives them a steady stream of income from their
>limited number of users. It seems a bit hypocritical to be deadset
>against subscriptions when that is an ideal business model for small
>developers and those who wish to support them - and in turn, gain
>support from them, in terms of bug fixes, troubleshooting, and answers
>to questions.
>

jaslar wrote:

I used Workflowy for about three years, on the subscription model. After
I canceled, I can no longer use the product at all - although I was at
least able to export and import it to another platform. The same thing
will happen with Outlinely.

I wonder if a "leasing" model would make sense: pay the subscription for couple of years (with the option to cancel at any time), and then, if you've faithfully made those monthly payments, you get a standard license and no more payments. This way, the developer is getting more money, over time, and customers have a vested interest in keeping up with their subscriptions to "earn" the standard license.

tightbeam wrote:

I wonder if a "leasing" model would make sense: pay the subscription for
couple of years (with the option to cancel at any time), and then, if
you've faithfully made those monthly payments, you get a standard
license and no more payments. This way, the developer is getting more
money, over time, and customers have a vested interest in keeping up
with their subscriptions to "earn" the standard license.

I doubt the "more money" the dev gets from that would be enough to meet cashflow needs. Workflowy's pricing is equivalent to its competition, and given the active development and costs I doubt they feel they need to lower prices.

Workflowy: $49/year
Checkvist: $39/year
Dynalist: $96/year (when they're not offering periodic 1-yr, 50%-off deals)

I think even gingkoapp.com charges upgrade pricing in that range as well, but info about that is so obscure I can't find it with a quick search right now.

satis wrote:

I think even gingkoapp.com charges upgrade pricing in that range as
well, but info about that is so obscure I can't find it with a quick
search right now.

Ha, found it over on the site for the desktop app(!) ginkgo.io - online Gingko is a (weird) "$2 → $21 monthly subscription" for what Adriano is calling the "older version" which is not under "ongoing development" (wtf).

Best Outliner in 2018 for me is, by far, OmniOutliner 5 (primarily used on Mac, with occasional seamless use of iPhone and iPad apps to update).

Sum is more than the parts, there is nothing out there that works as well for me end-to-end (... still have many other outliners and mind mappers to use on the side).

Couple of highlights (not a full review):
- 100% focused on outlining, doesn't try to make coffee
- Has all common outliner functions, except cloning. E.g. customizable keyboard shortcuts, hoisting and notion of "checked" items, …
- Offers columns to capture and track different kinds of metadata. This helps for structured writing (filter, sort, search, … by column) as well as project management scenarios, with very nice Excel export
- Features have over the last 15+ years matured with great attention to detail: filter ("search") works in batch find mode, can selectively only display line with search expression, ... filters are powerful and can be saved
- I like the smart use of "Sections" sidebar on the left to present alternative hierarchical navigation, irrespective of filter mode applied to the right
- OO 5 is the only outliner I am aware of that supports "dynamic" styles and at the same time can export those to Microsoft Word (as of OO version 5, older versions left you stranded whenever the time came to take your document beyond the outliner ...)
- Best outliner I have found with regards to the handling of body text (using the “Notes” feature): Can be limited to first line, full text, or hidden, displayed inline or in a notes pane. Notes export cleanly with their own named style to .docx

Does it still require syncing through its OmniPresence cloud service? If so, I assume you find that works just fine...

moritz wrote:

Best Outliner in 2018 for me is, by far, OmniOutliner 5 (primarily used
on Mac, with occasional seamless use of iPhone and iPad apps to update).

Sum is more than the parts, there is nothing out there that works as
well for me end-to-end (... still have many other outliners and mind
mappers to use on the side).

Couple of highlights (not a full review):
- 100% focused on outlining, doesn't try to make coffee
- Has all common outliner functions, except cloning. E.g. customizable
keyboard shortcuts, hoisting and notion of "checked" items, …
- Offers columns to capture and track different kinds of metadata. This
helps for structured writing (filter, sort, search, … by column)
as well as project management scenarios, with very nice Excel export
- Features have over the last 15+ years matured with great attention to
detail: filter ("search") works in batch find mode, can selectively only
display line with search expression, ... filters are powerful and can be
saved
- I like the smart use of "Sections" sidebar on the left to present
alternative hierarchical navigation, irrespective of filter mode applied
to the right
- OO 5 is the only outliner I am aware of that supports "dynamic" styles
and at the same time can export those to Microsoft Word (as of OO
version 5, older versions left you stranded whenever the time came to
take your document beyond the outliner ...)
- Best outliner I have found with regards to the handling of body text
(using the “Notes” feature): Can be limited to first line,
full text, or hidden, displayed inline or in a notes pane. Notes export
cleanly with their own named style to .docx