So I was just trying to explain cloning of notes to the developers of Agenda and I wanted to give examples of apps that offer that feature. The only one I could come up with is Tinderbox. I am sure there are others, but I am drawing a blank, so any help jogging my memory would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Steve Z.

Hi Steve,

InfoQube of course offers what could be called "clones" as long as there is no need for a distinction between the actual note and its clones.

In InfoQube, items can be under many parents (one of which is the main parent) and shown in multiple UIs. Changes in one UI, updates all others.
(as strictly speaking, it isn't a clone, but the "same" item, shown in multiple places.

Pierre
IQ Designer
https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5

Devonthink does this, they call it "replicate".

Patrick

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

So I was just trying to explain cloning of notes to the developers of
Agenda and I wanted to give examples of apps that offer that feature.
The only one I could come up with is Tinderbox. I am sure there are
others, but I am drawing a blank, so any help jogging my memory would be
greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Steve Z.

As Pierre wrote, InfoQube is an excellent example. Here are some others:

Ultra Recall
MyInfo
NoteCase Pro

If you consider mindmaps a type of outline, then I would add FreePlane and the surface feature of InfoQube.

Jon

Zoot

Paul J Miller's extensive note-taker reviews explain cloning/transclusion pretty well. Here's a good example: https://pauljmiller.wordpress.com/2018/10/23/a-comparative-review-of-four-note-taking-programs/

There is an exhaustive list here:

https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/6264

(BrainStorm is one that comes to mind.)

On that list -- I don't think TheBrain 10 does cloning / aliases

Lucas wrote:

There is an exhaustive list here:

https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/6264

The most basic example I would offer is the classic file system, where files and folders follow strict hierarchies: with the help of junctions or symbolic links (the term may differ per OS), it is possible for the same file or folder to appear in several hierarchies.

Re TheBrain: this has multi-parent relationships, which in practice is what clones attempt to replicate in outliners and mind mappers, i.e. tools where the hierarchies are much more strict. 'Relationships' in mind maps are a similar attempt to bypass the strict structure.

Similarly, one wouldn't need clones in a concept map, where anything may be connected to anything.

To take another example, in a classic flat-file database, an entry can only be part of one specific table/list. In a relational database, that entry may link to (and be linked to from) multiple tables, representing different groupings. To replicate this in a flat-file, redundancy is required; i.e. copies of the same entry would have to be included in several tables in order to support multiple groupings. 'Cloning' would then amount to keeping those copies in sync.

(Of course, in practice, this is an ineffective way of doing things, so relational solutions are preferable to organise data in such cases.)


Paul Korm wrote:

On that list -- I don't think TheBrain 10 does cloning / aliases

Uggh. Of course. Multi-parents. Thanks for the correct info :-)

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

Re TheBrain: this has multi-parent relationships, which in practice is

Paul Korm wrote:
>On that list -- I don't think TheBrain 10 does cloning / aliases

Steve,

I wouldn't put Tbx's aliases in the realm of cloning. Aliasing in Tbx is directed more towards working with body text (Attribute $Text) and less so with Container/Title notes (Attribute $Name); True cloning allows for any hierarchy depth level and any body text (or file if other than a note manager) that would come with it. If you created a wikipedia article with Music as its title in Tbx and had a container for every topic in the article's TOC and then placed it in a container named All wikipedia articles or Index of articles by title e.g.; and then decided you also wanted that article and it structure to appear in a different category called Music...well, only the title Music would appear in the alias. The body text would also go in separate containers as to conform with it's TOC (after all Tbx is an outliner) and therefore you would not have the body text under the Title of the note...bummer (trust me Ive been desperately asking for this feature). But, as someone else did mention here, DEVONthink has a a true cloning system, but we're dealing with a document manager here and not so note friendly. NeO outliner also has true cloning. Scrivener, TheBrain have partial cloning in the sense that it uses tags to place containers in other locations but you will never be able to see those "clones" at the same time. Not very familiar with Windows apps and this is all I've got, hopefully this helps somewhat.

PS: All the Tbx tuts I've watched from you the least I could do is "clone" a favor right back :)

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

So I was just trying to explain cloning of notes to the developers of
Agenda and I wanted to give examples of apps that offer that feature.
The only one I could come up with is Tinderbox. I am sure there are
others, but I am drawing a blank, so any help jogging my memory would be
greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Steve Z.

I forgot to mention Notion.so. Also has unlimited true cloning. As for mindmappers, Freemind and Freeplane also has true cloning.


A wrote:

Steve,

I wouldn't put Tbx's aliases in the realm of cloning. Aliasing in Tbx is
directed more towards working with body text (Attribute $Text) and less
so with Container/Title notes (Attribute $Name); True cloning allows for
any hierarchy depth level and any body text (or file if other than a
note manager) that would come with it. If you created a wikipedia
article with Music as its title in Tbx and had a container for every
topic in the article's TOC and then placed it in a container named All
wikipedia articles or Index of articles by title e.g.; and then decided
you also wanted that article and it structure to appear in a different
category called Music...well, only the title Music would appear in the
alias. The body text would also go in separate containers as to conform
with it's TOC (after all Tbx is an outliner) and therefore you would not
have the body text under the Title of the note...bummer (trust me Ive
been desperately asking for this feature). But, as someone else did
mention here, DEVONthink has a a true cloning system, but we're dealing
with a document manager here and not so note friendly. NeO outliner also
has true cloning. Scrivener, TheBrain have partial cloning in the sense
that it uses tags to place containers in other locations but you will
never be able to see those "clones" at the same time. Not very familiar
with Windows apps and this is all I've got, hopefully this helps
somewhat.

PS: All the Tbx tuts I've watched from you the least I could do is
"clone" a favor right back :)

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
So I was just trying to explain cloning of notes to the developers of
>Agenda and I wanted to give examples of apps that offer that feature.
>The only one I could come up with is Tinderbox. I am sure there are
>others, but I am drawing a blank, so any help jogging my memory would
be
>greatly appreciated. Thank you.
>
>Steve Z.

Having been a journalistic hack, when writing in a journalistic style I tend to follow the ancient and sound journalistic advice: "Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em, tell 'em it, and tell 'em what you've just told 'em."

Accordingly and for obvious reasons, I and I suspect others also interested in clarity and precision in writing find cloning a very valuable, almost essential feature of outliners.

It's true that Tao/Neo has this feature. But it's one of too few.

I think NeO does cloning, but it has been some time since I used it.

Yes, NeO supports cloning -- multiple instances of the same item can be cloned as well as (optionally) styles and checkboxes.

marlowe wrote:

I think NeO does cloning, but it has been some time since I used it.

I don't think there is a standard definition of cloning in multi level notes or trees. An outline note or tree with branches is basically a data structure format.

In any app, it has definition(s) for possible i) syntax format and ii) functions, in that app. These vary from app to app. Just like possible predefined functions or tables in programming languages or databases vary in different programs. Both the data structure and possible data functions for whole or subparts vary accordingly.

So a clone can be defined as a simple copy and paste of that outlined note or tree or sub-tree.

Or secondly as an empty version of that data structure which needs filling in with data. For example if writing a manual, would be useful to have that. Then it is a template of that data structure one fills in for each definition.

Third possible version is a shortcut or pointer to an index. That is a mirroring of the original note or tree or subtree. Like many views on a central database from different places/users.

So claiming to have 'the' correct definition of cloning of an outliner note (tree with levels) structure is ultimately just playing Chinese whispers.

In the app I have designed, I've tried to take the 'StretchText' ideal in the 'customizable view of the data' direction.

While a rather extreme, and eye-defyingly colorful example, I think it makes sense: https://imgur.com/Bc4Uwqb