Hi, so my old generation of tools is becoming a bit stale. I typically use Outlook with NeoPro for email, and UltraRecall for most other things. It's a good, stable combination. Then I keep a large and somewhat superfluous database of web info, etc. in Rightnote. Despite having licenses for InfoQube, Zoot, and a bunch more, I found that "less is more" with organization.

The new batch of tools led by notion.io intrigue me. Can I get some recommendations and discussion regarding the strengths and weakness of these? In particular, I am particularly interested in how email can be transferred/integrated, as keeping critical email organized and easily accessible has always been an issue with my previous systems. I also am looking for a very flexible tool that can handle task management and cross-link all items (which obviously all these seems to do). Offline access on PC would be highly desirable.

notion.so
heptabase.com
saga.so
capacities.io
tana.inc
obsidian.md
logseq.com
roamresearch.com

So any options on these?

Is your use case to preserve emails as such, i.e. with full HTML formatting, metadata and the ability to archive and reply to them?
Or just to copy the content across?
What do you want to do that a regular email manager doesn't handle?

Of the apps I have dabbled with (Notion, Logseq, Obsidian, Capacities), none are email managers, they work with text or text blocks, so they won't be able to preserve an email in their native format. You would have to look at how to add emails as attachments.

Doesn't UltraRecall already have a pretty good integration with Outlook? I thought it was just a matter of drag-and- drop.

I have tried to organise my emails with UR once, but I found that when the going gets tough, the whole process just slowed me down.

These days I just save important Outlook emails directly onto the hard drive, and if there is content that needs following up or tracking, I just copy and paste that into Roam as plain text and work on it there.

Ultimately an Outlook email message is just another medium, and it's the information content that matters (to me), and the info can be extracted and dealt with in one's preferred system.

Having said that, I do keep the original emails in outlook as well, and super important emails I also save as PDFs.

@Tumbleweed, thanks for mentioning Neo Pro. I hadn't heard of it before. Their website lists a Notes4Email product that looks perfect for my needs.

@Cyganet, Sure, glad to help. NEOPro an amazing tool if you use Outlook, well worth the cost.

Regarding UltraRecall, yes it still works quite well for email. My reason for "switching" is just that information is not going in and being found very easily, which is how the wiki/markdown style seems to solve via Zettlekasten principles. Similarly, email is getting lost in my system, in terms of having to drag/drop an email from Outlook to a project folder in UR and then link into the contacts, etc. I used EssentialPim which has natively linking of everything, but frankly that program is so buggy that I couldn't rely on it for email. So in terms of email I will still use Outlook/NEOPro and process/backup email from there, but would like to be able to insert important or reference emails into the new program.

@Dr Andus, I remember you were a huge fan of ConnectedText back in the day. It's a shame that didn't keep being developed, as it was ahead of it's time.

Now that I've had some time to look, it is clear that OBSIDIAN is the one to use. Wow, is it every powerful! Windows installation and seems to be able to handle anything/everything as well as be customized for many use cases. However, learning it appears to be more daunting than Zoot pre help file and InfoQube combined.

Do any of you have any recommended resources, or tips for learning and building an Obsidian structure for various uses?

I've been using Tana for about a month. In it's current configuration, it is not a place to store files. Tana is a graph database, a blank slate where the user can define simple or endlessly complex nested attributes for every node in the database. Tana supports nesting and folding -- but to use it solely as an outliner would be like installing a whole-house generator just to light the refrigerator light. Tana has minimal import and export features, at this time. It has no ability to produce graphical displays, but any node's children can be displayed as a table or list or cards or tabs.

Tana is going to be like Tinderbox in the sense that people will open the box, see a stark blank slate, with a darkened backroom stuffed with features, and no clues about what do do next. Some will kvell and love it; others will despise it without trying to understand.

Tumbleweed wrote:

I am particularly interested in how email can be
transferred/integrated, as keeping critical email organized and easily
accessible has always been an issue with my previous systems. I also am
looking for a very flexible tool that can handle task management and
cross-link all items (which obviously all these seems to do). Offline
access on PC would be highly desirable.

tana.inc

I'll admit to not being able to figure out Tana.... the "supertags" seem powerful, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the differences with tags and how I would figure out how to use one or another.

--Chris

Paul Korm wrote:

I've been using Tana for about a month. In it's current configuration,
it is not a place to store files. Tana is a graph database, a blank
slate where the user can define simple or endlessly complex nested
attributes for every node in the database. Tana supports nesting and
folding -- but to use it solely as an outliner would be like installing
a whole-house generator just to light the refrigerator light. Tana has
minimal import and export features, at this time. It has no ability to
produce graphical displays, but any node's children can be displayed as
a table or list or cards or tabs.

Tana is going to be like Tinderbox in the sense that people will open
the box, see a stark blank slate, with a darkened backroom stuffed with
features, and no clues about what do do next. Some will kvell and love
it; others will despise it without trying to understand.

Tumbleweed wrote:
>I am particularly interested in how email can be
>transferred/integrated, as keeping critical email organized and easily
>accessible has always been an issue with my previous systems. I also am
>looking for a very flexible tool that can handle task management and
>cross-link all items (which obviously all these seems to do). Offline
>access on PC would be highly desirable.

>tana.inc

Amen. I'm doing a lot of experimenting with Tana, since right now in the early access phase it is free. I don't know if I would pay for it. It is fascinating, though it is more on the quantum-computer end of the note-taking spectrum.

Chris Thompson wrote:

I'll admit to not being able to figure out Tana.... the "supertags" seem
powerful, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around the differences
with tags and how I would figure out how to use one or another.

Honestly, Obsidian seems to be amazingly powerful. With the canvas functionality you all mentioned in another thread, it mimics the visual layout of Heptabase, etc. well.

And the ability to make customized dashboards ala InfoQube is really awesome. It will take me a while to get used to wiki-style linking as I'm an old school outliner and linking/cloning type of person.

My only issue is the massive learning curve!

I have looked at and tried most of the apps you suggest and a lot of other ones too (no surprise to anyone who has followed my CRIMP travails). An app not on your list that I suggest you take a look at is Legend. It is an outline, much like Workflowy or Dynalist, but with some powerful additional features, one of which is an integrated email manager.

https://legendapp.com

Here's an introduction video: https://youtu.be/EpHN8CYLLvs

I like that Legend is offline first, so I don't need to be online to use it. Legend has a lot of "fancy" features, but doesn't feel fancy... I think that's one reason it hasn't become more popular.

I have been trying Tana, but it is online only at the moment, which makes it hard for me to commit to. The Supertags feature is nice, very similar to the Prototypes of Tinderbox. But I found that trying to build the right system of Supertags was a rabbit hole for me, much the way I feel trying to make Notion work for me. Too much fiddling. But I am going to keep an eye on Tana, because I do like some much of the other less-talked about features -- such as the ease with which I can move tasks to other days.

Steve

Nooooo!! Just when I decided on Obsidian, you have reactivated my CRIMP which I thought I had been cured! Yes, Legend looks awesome. EPIM was a nearly perfect solution, and has all the latent linking, but alas was buggy with email issues. And no program can be trusted if you aren't sure a mail has been sent.

Obsidian's (and the rest) two-way linking doesn't seem to be anything new, but the implementation as a markdown OS with community plugins seems really fantastic. I was investigating ConnectedText based on Dr. Andus' recommendation back in the day, but the wiki style didn't appeal to me as I liked strict hierarchies (with cloning, etc.). Now I realize I need to adapt somewhat to the more powerful tools and Zettenkasten benefits. I now regret not using ConnectedText which seems to still seems very feature rich despite development stopping.

Since Legend is Workflow based it seems really to be built for the todo/project management side. Seems to have email but incredibly no mention in their Help/Features page. Obsidian seems more geared toward notes with the other functionality bolted on via plugins; however, having most everything together is advantageous. Since Outlook/NeoPro are really required for stable email, I wonder if an Outlook + Obsidian + Tabbles is a good solution? I include Tabbles since it allows for organization of files/email and this is something that gets difficult in any program without robust native email handling. In this potential system, files/email would be generally just be organized for quick retrieval of important items related to a certain project, and in Obsidian any specific information/thoughts related to a given file/email could be linked. Also, trying to keep email actually organized is time consuming and distracts from core work, so letting NeoPro and Tabbles keep things handy and automatically organized by project would be ideal.

How do you all think such a system will work in practice?

Thanks!

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I have looked at and tried most of the apps you suggest and a lot of
other ones too (no surprise to anyone who has followed my CRIMP
travails). An app not on your list that I suggest you take a look at is
Legend. It is an outline, much like Workflowy or Dynalist, but with some
powerful additional features, one of which is an integrated email
manager.

Hi again, so my CRIMP is getting serious!

My main issues are:
1) Build a knowledge base that includes not only personal information and research, but also information on companies, meetings, etc.
2) Somehow integrates with email history to become a CRM with the last contact of an individual being visible. By this I mean I want to easily see the last phone call, email or meeting for all contacts, but still have these meetings be tied into the knowledge base.

I'm quite sure 2) is borderline impossible. I've tried this with so many systems: UltraRecall (email sync will become slow), EPIM (should be ideal but incredibly buggy and unreliable), Outlook + CloseContact (works but siloed), DoogiePim (missing many features, need Exchange), InfoQube (email integration poor), Zoot (don't get me started), Chaos Intellect (no external linking).

Is there any way to actually accomplish this? EPIM should have been the perfect solution but it crashes and stops working constantly. Or perhaps I should just give up trying to have all info for a company, say a lead for my business, in one place and have separate email and "all other" information stores?

If I go with a split solution, which is what I've been doing, the issue becomes not fully committing to it and then CRIMPING to other things. Here are the different software I think are very powerful and interesting as knowledge managers:
LogSeq
Capacities
Tana
Obsidian
Anytype

Any tips on this? I've had serious case of CRIMP since at least 2011!

CRMs are the best CRMs. I'd personally keep my personal data separate, which would also let me choose best of breed for the price for both tasks and my individual needs and personal writing preferences.

If you insist on using one app for everything, there are a lot of templates that turn Notion into a lightweight CRM, so I'd probably look into that.

This is probably an overly simple "solution" for you, but just in case it sparks some ideas, this is how the developer of Reflect recommends using Reflect as a CRM:

https://youtu.be/2cMRkfl6Hng

Reflect is not super powerful yet, but it is easy to use and has a minimum amount of friction. And even if you don't use Reflect, the system he recommends might be useful in other apps.

Steve


Tumbleweed wrote:

Hi again, so my CRIMP is getting serious!

My main issues are:
1) Build a knowledge base that includes not only personal information
and research, but also information on companies, meetings, etc.
2) Somehow integrates with email history to become a CRM with the last
contact of an individual being visible. By this I mean I want to easily
see the last phone call, email or meeting for all contacts, but still
have these meetings be tied into the knowledge base.

I'm quite sure 2) is borderline impossible. I've tried this with so many
systems: UltraRecall (email sync will become slow), EPIM (should be
ideal but incredibly buggy and unreliable), Outlook + CloseContact
(works but siloed), DoogiePim (missing many features, need Exchange),
InfoQube (email integration poor), Zoot (don't get me started), Chaos
Intellect (no external linking).

Is there any way to actually accomplish this? EPIM should have been the
perfect solution but it crashes and stops working constantly. Or perhaps
I should just give up trying to have all info for a company, say a lead
for my business, in one place and have separate email and "all other"
information stores?

If I go with a split solution, which is what I've been doing, the issue
becomes not fully committing to it and then CRIMPING to other things.
Here are the different software I think are very powerful and
interesting as knowledge managers:
LogSeq
Capacities
Tana
Obsidian
Anytype

Any tips on this? I've had serious case of CRIMP since at least 2011!

Tumbleweed wrote:

InfoQube (email integration poor)

Hi,

Indeed, IQ doesn't have a direct link to Outlook (unlike the Google Calendar which works perfectly), but, you have 2 other methods of getting content:
1- Set-up EmailToIQ (see online doc on how to) and simply forward the email to IQ. Simple, fast, indexes content and supports attachments
2- Hyperlink to the Outlook item. Either Copy-Paste or Drag-Drop items (emails, contacts, etc) from Outlook to IQ

HTH!

Pierre Paul Landry
IQ Designer

So just to narrow it down, I'm considering:

LogSeq
Anytype
Obsidian
Capacities

All four of these seem like the "best" app of its type when I look into each individually. I'm a privacy and local storage only guy so LogSeq seems like #1 in this regard, with Obsidian being possibly too high of a learning curve with all the plugins (that might not be maintained).

Anytype looks amazing, but I just read that the data is encrypted and lockedin. Capacities is a no-go due to the data storage being in the cloud, not to mention that it's send unencrypted so they can process it.

So it seems obvious that I should go all in on LogSeq - but am I missing anything here? Any opinions would be most welcome as I could CRIMP another 10 years without making a decision!

I think the choice between LogSeq and Obsidian is very much down to your preferred way of working. Personally, I've found Obsidian's base version much more intuitive, and only gradually added plugins as I've spotted areas that could be improved. Even so, I've still ended up with around 30 plugins, which I regularly review and excise (only to add more when I stumble across some fascinating concept in my regular trawls of the plugin library!).

I like the fact you can have multiple repositories for your Obsidian data. It's also got a great search function (and an even better advanced search plugin, if you happen to need it).

Anytype is very impressive, but also quite Notion-like, so not immediately intuitive. However, I do like the overall concept, and will probably take the time to familiarise myself with it. Blocks are always good, as is an underlying database. Again, excellent search function (especially for a relatively new product). You could certainly use Anytype for the breadth of applications you mentioned earlier (including, in principle, CRM). Obsidian I have used (experimentally) as a task manager, but now use it purely as a knowledge management and journaling system.

I do suggest you keep the data repository as application-neutral as you can – just in case you're seized by a violent urge to CRIMP in a couple of years' time ;-)


Tumbleweed wrote:

So just to narrow it down, I'm considering:

LogSeq
Anytype
Obsidian
Capacities

All four of these seem like the "best" app of its type when I look into
each individually. I'm a privacy and local storage only guy so LogSeq
seems like #1 in this regard, with Obsidian being possibly too high of a
learning curve with all the plugins (that might not be maintained).

Anytype looks amazing, but I just read that the data is encrypted and
lockedin. Capacities is a no-go due to the data storage being in the
cloud, not to mention that it's send unencrypted so they can process it.

So it seems obvious that I should go all in on LogSeq - but am I missing
anything here? Any opinions would be most welcome as I could CRIMP
another 10 years without making a decision!

For pure outlining-with-links I'm more in favor of Logseq than Obsidian, but I recently was told about this awesome-looking utility for macOS and iOS which integrates several dozen Obsidian-specific Shortcuts (Apple's built-in visual scripting workflow framework)

https://apps.apple.com/app/id1659667937

https://obsidian.actions.work

Notes
Check For Existence Of Note
Create Note
Delete Note
Rename/Move Note
Get List Of All Notes
Get Note
Get Note Link
Append Text To A Note
Prepend Text To A Note
Insert Text At Placeholder In A Note
Search And Replace In A Note
Search Notes
Search Notes with Omnisearch
Open Note In Obsidian

Daily Notes
Check For Existence Of Daily Note
Create Daily Note
Get List Of All Daily Notes
Get Daily Note
Get Most Recent Daily Note
Append Text To Daily Note
Prepend Text To Daily Note
Insert Text At Placeholder In Daily Note
Search And Replace In Daily Note
Open Daily Note In Obsidian
Open Most Recent Daily Note In Obsidian

Vaults
Get List Of All Files
Get List Of All Non-Markdown Files
Get List Of All Tags
Get Vault Path
Get Attachment Folder Path
Get "New File" Folder Path
Open Vault
Close Vault

Dataview
Get Dataview List
Get Dataview Table

Folders
Create Folder
Delete Folder
Rename/Move Folder
Get List Of All Folders

Hi Satis - I am struggling to make a decide as to Logseq or Obsidian so am curioys to know why you favour Logseq for pure outlining with links. Many thanks.

Daly

satis wrote:

For pure outlining-with-links I'm more in favor of Logseq than Obsidian,
but I recently was told about this awesome-looking utility for macOS and
iOS which integrates several dozen Obsidian-specific Shortcuts (Apple's
built-in visual scripting workflow framework)

https://apps.apple.com/app/id1659667937

https://obsidian.actions.work

Notes
Check For Existence Of Note
Create Note
Delete Note
Rename/Move Note
Get List Of All Notes
Get Note
Get Note Link
Append Text To A Note
Prepend Text To A Note
Insert Text At Placeholder In A Note
Search And Replace In A Note
Search Notes
Search Notes with Omnisearch
Open Note In Obsidian

Daily Notes
Check For Existence Of Daily Note
Create Daily Note
Get List Of All Daily Notes
Get Daily Note
Get Most Recent Daily Note
Append Text To Daily Note
Prepend Text To Daily Note
Insert Text At Placeholder In Daily Note
Search And Replace In Daily Note
Open Daily Note In Obsidian
Open Most Recent Daily Note In Obsidian

Vaults
Get List Of All Files
Get List Of All Non-Markdown Files
Get List Of All Tags
Get Vault Path
Get Attachment Folder Path
Get "New File" Folder Path
Open Vault
Close Vault

Dataview
Get Dataview List
Get Dataview Table

Folders
Create Folder
Delete Folder
Rename/Move Folder
Get List Of All Folders

Daly de Gagne wrote:

Hi Satis - I am struggling to make a decide as to Logseq or Obsidian so
am curioys to know why you favour Logseq for pure outlining with links.

At heart Logseq is an outliner app, with a block-based paradigm, while Obsidian is a page-based writing app. (Obsidian can use block headings but you can’t edit them in other files - you can embed them with ![[..^..] but it’s just the reference.) For people who live inside outliners or think in outliner form I think Logseq is generally more appealing, while from what I've seen most users of Obsidian don't prioritize outlining.

Obsidian can contain outlines (Markdown headings let Obsidian files work as outlines - though only six levels deep) and Logseq can work with folders of markdown files. They use different paradigms.

I prefer the build-out from a high quality outliner instead of having a page-pased app that has some outlining in it . (Logseq lets you link to both blocks and pages.) Given that Obsidian comes from Dynalist’s developers it's a bit strange they didn’t build Obsidian atop its outliner, or prioritize outlining like Logseq does.

One big difference between the two apps is search. My desktop machine has so many documents (more 4500+ epubs and 15,000+ pdfs alone), and I depend on sophisticated searches with HoudahSpot and Devonsphere. The writing apps I use like Ulysses have sophisticated searching (in Ulysses you can search sheets, groups or entire libraries, and save search 'filters' for reuse) and one of Logseq’s advantages over its competition is its highly developeed query abilities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iuy5A9LJiVE

I still think that there are too many core functions that ought to be included in Obsidian. It is a powerful app but very dependent on 3rd party plugins of unknown quality and future support, which individual users need to search for, read reviews of, evaluate, and keep track of for updates... and then periodically look at competing plugins for better options. And individual users also need to keep on top of their plugins (most serious users I know have dozens) to make sure they’re still being developed and supported or else they need to re-evaluate alternate plugins. It’s a fiddly situation, and one that’s not conducive to mainstream use. As I’ve said here before I think it’s something of an abdication of developer responsibility not to bake in more core functionality.

Logseq also has a plugin framework, but its core functionality does not require as many external plugins.

To some it is worth noting that Logseq is open source.

Last time I checked (2022?) while Logseq shows live Markdown rendering, Obsidian makes you switch between edit and preview modes. And Logseq offers live editable block embeddings while Obsidian embeddings only serve as a reference.

Logseq is still in early beta mode, and the developers are evaluating a significant overhaul of the app's internal database.

https://www.reddit.com/r/logseq/comments/13lrxqm/logseq_database_version/

That said, it's pretty stable, as is Obsidian.

Recently Logseq added a whiteboard feature:

https://blog.logseq.com/whiteboards-and-queries-for-everybody/

For most writers, setting up an Obsidian instance with a set of basic plugins should be perfectly fine. And Obsidian development is probably faster and more polished than the open source group behind Logseq, and there seem to be a lot more plugins available for Obsidian.

Hm, yes, nice description of the main differences between LogSeq and Obsidian, but slightly outdated. Obsidian uses a hybrid markdown mode nowadays, so you don't have to switch to preview (although you can choose to have notes appear in "Edit" or "Read" mode; the latter functions as a straight preview).

Bullet points can be treated like blocks, in much the same way as LogSeq (i.e. moved around etc.); bullet-point lists also fold, just like LogSeq. In that sense, Obsidian has clearly been inspired by LogSeq's default bullet-point layout. You can further enhance this behaviour using the Outliner plugin (although that's looking increasingly unnecessary).

It's worth mentioning that you can link to individual blocks by adding your own identifier to any given block. But if you don't want to do that, you can use (built-in) Bookmarks to bookmark individual blocks and then include them in links. It's important to note that Obsidian does treat all text paragraphs as blocks, just not as obviously as LogSeq.

With respect to embedding, the amazing Hover Editor plugin (which is being considered for Core plugin status) allows you to hover over any link to view the entire note, and even to open that link in a separate window so you can edit the note. You can also embed using various plugins, but I don't generally bother – although the ability to create embedded lists of notes based on tags (Tagged Documents Viewer) or indeed embedded lists of paragraphs/blocks of text (Tag Summary) is useful.

One of my favourite features is the (built-in!) Stacked Tabs view. This allows you to view tabs not just as horizontal labels across the top of a window, but in a kind of horizontal accordion (with the labels rotated 90 degrees). If you're flicking between multiple documents simultaneously but don't want to open multiple windows or use a fixed two-pane view, this is amazingly useful.

Just a few reasons why I like Obsidian so much!

Re: Obsidian – I've just realised you can indeed embed blocks by putting an exclamation mark in front of the block ID. I must try it!

satis wrote:

Given that Obsidian comes from Dynalist’s
developers it's a bit strange they didn’t build Obsidian atop its
outliner, or prioritize outlining like Logseq does.

I don't think they wanted to risk their Dynalist business on what started as a lockdown project and they've said that the Dynalist codebase really needs rewriting from scratch to add new functionality (which is why it's in maintenance mode).

I still think that there are too many core functions that ought to be
included in Obsidian. As I’ve said here
before I think it’s something of an abdication of developer
responsibility not to bake in more core functionality.

Many Obsidian users use few plugins, so what ought to be core functionality it a matter of opinion, and it was designed from the start to be extended with plugins - many features are core plugins which can be enabled, or not.

There have been times when they have Sherlocked a community plugin. But they are very focused on maintaining speed (important since it's based on Electron) and would be reluctant to add anything to core that might impact speed and only be used by a subset of users.

They've also been limited by being just two developers (with young children) when they started and determined to rely on bootstrapping rather than VC funding. And the ability to add community plugins has been tremendously popular. Logseq are trying to follow suit there but without much traction as yet.

I have to say many of the plugins are spectacular. For example, you can easily build sophisticated calculations into Obsidian (using tables or code blocks). You can use columns. You have a wide variety of linking options (since researching the whole embedded thing in more detail, I've discovered you can easily embed blocks either by their individual identifiers or as blocks under headings; Obsidian opens a dialog box that allows you to scroll through the blocks in a particular note to identify the one you want to link to). Just the core plugins are impressive – combined with community plugins, they become awesome.

Although there are, of course, occasional clashes... ;-)

My favourite embedded calculation function, however, has to be FS-Notes' support for Soulver 3-style calculations. Lovers of Bear may find FS-Notes just as irresistible.

Satis, thank you very much for your reply. It's reinforced my inclination to work in Logseq.

One other question for which I have seen mixed responses, and that is whether there are web, Android, and Chrome OS versions for Logseq. I would be using Logseq mainly on my Windows machine. However, I have an Android phone and tablet, and a Lenovo Duet 5 Chromebook (wich also functions as a Chrome OS tablet).

Thanks again.

Daly