Interesting, washere, especially the discussion of outlining on the LibreOffice website. The usefulness of outlining is clearly underestimated by those who don't use it.

Quite a useful alternative to Word is Outlinely in rich-text mode (as opposed to markdown mode). You can turn Outlinely into a single-pane outliner simply by hiding the library/notes windows. However, Outlinely only runs on macOS/iOS.

Yes, many are stuck with Windows for various reasons. Recent MS stats shows a hundred million mac users & 1.3 billion Windows machines running worldwide. And there are more mobs with pitchforks asking for an outliner view in the link below.

I've read philosophical and mathematical books which easily run into double digit sub level heading's numbering.

If half the people here don't see the need for double digit outliner view levels, can we blame the LibreOffice devs (who left OpenOffice after the takeover) when they say we're not going to waste time building it, who cares about outliner view or deep heading outlining?

https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3959

washere wrote:

If half the people here don't see the need for double digit outliner
view levels, can we blame the LibreOffice devs (who left OpenOffice
after the takeover) when they say we're not going to waste time building
it, who cares about outliner view or deep heading outlining?

Maybe half the people here do not need 10 or more heading levels. But most (all?) posters here would agree that a decent word processor needs a decent outlining mode/view.
I don't see why the LibreOffice developers refuse to integrate Organon or something comparable in the LO package.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of developers of word processers who do not see a need for outlining - Textmaker (part of the German Softmaker Office) is one example.

What does org-mode not provide you?

thouqht wrote:

What does org-mode not provide you?

You talking to me? (sorry, couldn't resist)

Who did you ask?

Wbo are you asking? Thanks.

thouqht wrote:

What does org-mode not provide you?

Is org mode really a viable option for 99.9999% of the population?

Well, emacs/orgmode is available on Mac, Windows, and Linux. It's free. There's a learning curve to be sure, but also an amazing number of powerful commands. One I can't believe every word processor doesn't have: movement of cursor by sentence.

My frustration: on a Chromebook, I can't tell if I can get this to work or not.

But yeah, for certain kinds of writing, I think emacs may be the best choice of all, well worth the time to learn.

Franz Grieser wrote:

washere wrote:

>If half the people here don't see the need for double digit outliner
>view levels, can we blame the LibreOffice devs (who left OpenOffice
>after the takeover) when they say we're not going to waste time
building
>it, who cares about outliner view or deep heading outlining?

Maybe half the people here do not need 10 or more heading levels. But
most (all?) posters here would agree that a decent word processor needs
a decent outlining mode/view.
I don't see why the LibreOffice developers refuse to integrate Organon
or something comparable in the LO package.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of developers of word processers who do
not see a need for outlining - Textmaker (part of the German Softmaker
Office) is one example.

Well that is my point. 3 Different ontologies here:
___________________________________________________________

1) Real(ity) Politik Actual Contenders:

SoftMaker: small comoany, relative to big software corps, trying to make money and survive. They are not going to do it, why? See LO, last line below.

Microsoft: They are not going to do a proper Outline View, why? Because they are so huge they do not listen, it is a giant Leviathan. Took hundreds of millions for years to make them bring back start button and give up making windows (8) into a tablet touch screen disaster. Feedback on Outline View has been asking for years to make it comprehensive for academics/authors, no cigar. Waste of time to ask them.

OppenOffice: Since taken over? Forget about it.

LibreOffice: Best bet but they are saying a comprehensive "proper" Outline View will not be made. And they don't see a point in doing a mini-me crippled version.

Why not doa full featured awesome Outline View?
i) It takes a lot of man hours to To make a proper and deep reaching Outline View which goes beyond MS Word crippled version
ii) It will have to take into account being coded into ALL MODULES of writer and other apps modules. It is a meta feature which would have i/o, features AND CONTROL control over all other modules in their suite of apps within LO. This means even more hours and involves all their teams.

Considering their huge needs for constant debugging, upgrades, new flashier features which require less work, etc and their limited resources and devs, that is why they are saying for years they are not going to do it.
LO is a free and open source project. I am sure if someone gives them a million dollars to do a proper full featured deep Outline View, they will find the devs and time to do it.

___________________________________________________________

2) What would a Proper Deep Outline View on a heavy weight word processor mean?
If such a beast came into being, it would show MS Word Outline View (OV) and Scrivener etc. look like a joke.
Because it would plug into the most used app category in the history of mankind: Word Processors.
It is like what we were taught in the Uni about future multimedia taking over the world, and most laughed. It only took Tim Berners-Lee little web browser to hyper link simple text and graphics and the http protocol being added to ftp, email etc. Here we are. Granted it will not be nowhere near as big in impact, but once doen for academics, report writers, archivers, Gov bodies, authors etc, it will be a mini big bang.
Why is it not done yet? Because most can not visualize it's potential, even here among Outline Fantatics maybe half can not see the fuss. How can we expect ordinary people or even LO devs to demand it with a zeal. It is not going to happen any time soon.

___________________________________________________________

3) What To Do?
Lets get real again. Who is the best bet to do this: LibreOffice's WRITER, realistically.
AND they are also the best option due to being free and open source and committed to that spirit since the OpenOffice palava when many of the founder left to set up LO.

Who is to call for it: We see even non Outline Fanatics (you may call non-CRIMPers) are demanding in some numbers. that is your base.
How to do it: The only way now is to set up campaign asking LibreOffice for:
"A Full Featured DEEP Outline View for Writer"

How to initiate this campaign:
Join a few demanding it from LO
Create a blog, online petition, youtube videos, Twitter/Instagram/Facebook channels to ask for it, newsletter, etc
To inform and connect to the mobs we see in the 3 threads I linked
Ask them to inform and connect others about the potential
and continue this campaign.
Until LO devs take it up.

You need one or a few to start this. This is the only way "potentially possible".
Otherwise no one among the big word processor contenders will do invest in the needed man hours.
Not going to happen anytime soon.

But if it is done, specially with good GUI UI/UX, it will change Word Processing, specially for the producers of content. Maybe done within a decade by someone.

___________________________________________________________

Afterword:
The next generation after such anoffering, probably in 20 or 30 years, would be linking into virtual boards and plugging that into semi AI (existing tech neural nets, nothing fancy) engine under the bonnet.

I have bought Causality (lifetime) and just can imagine something like that virtual board linked into a proper Deep Outline View of a heavy word processor: for creators of any type of content (fiction/non fiction/academic/reports/archives etc), it will be unimaginable for current generation.

But first before anything like that, the next immediate horizon emerging needs to be a :
"Full featured Deep Outline View, plugged into a heavyweight word processor".

Mean time I am mixing an elite number of apps, about 15 from over 500 I have tested over the last few years, to do what I need done. Such an offering would retire 3 or 4 of the apps in my list of 15 and increase creative potential too. But life is short and I am not holding my breath or expecting this to come into reality any time soon.

Lets get real again, C'est la vie and I wish Outline Fanatics and authors as of yet blissfully ignorant of the potential in such a beast, good luck with it.
I have an appointment back on earth.

jaslar wrote:

Well, emacs/orgmode is available on Mac, Windows, and Linux. It's free.
There's a learning curve to be sure, but also an amazing number of
powerful commands. One I can't believe every word processor doesn't
have: movement of cursor by sentence.

My frustration: on a Chromebook, I can't tell if I can get this to work
or not.

But yeah, for certain kinds of writing, I think emacs may be the best
choice of all, well worth the time to learn.

I just like to say I do not read all the threads here, only a minority, but occasionally I search for your name to see what you have to say.
Thanks.

Daly de Gagne wrote:
Wbo are you asking? Thanks.

thouqht wrote:
What does org-mode not provide you?

OP (Stephen R. Diamond) - I think it would let him do what he wants.

tightbeam wrote:
Is org mode really a viable option for 99.9999% of the population?

If someone is serious enough about their outlining to be on this forum, they are likely serious enough for org-mode. Getting the core functionality set up is really pretty straight forward and only becomes more complex once you start customizing it. Watch a couple youtube tutorials and you'll be on your way to the "text editor for a lifetime".

thought,

I don't think one's seriouness about outlining can or should be equated to their seriousness about org-mode. Different strokes for different folks.

Daly

>thouqht wrote:
>What does org-mode not provide you
If someone is serious enough about their outlining to be on this forum,
they are likely serious enough for org-mode. Getting the core
functionality set up is really pretty straight forward and only becomes
more complex once you start customizing it. Watch a couple youtube
tutorials and you'll be on your way to the "text editor for a lifetime".

I'm all in with complex tools for text manipulation. Emacs is a favorite of mine and power tools are always the answer - except for creative writing. A part of me always wants high capability. Another part would be happy with a typewriter and a #2 pencil with which to grieve over word choice.

During a recent interlude when OmniOutliner had some vexing rough edges in IOS, I did some outlining with MindNode. it worked so well I wished for a full-frame outline view. Currently, when you turn on outline view in MindNode, you still see the mind map view, and the outline can only be expanded to fill about 2/3rds of the window.

So that led to some youtube searches, and thank goodness there's more than flat earth conspiracies still to be found there. I had never really thought of a mind map as a replacement for an outline, but they are close cousins, and no mind map utility worthy of consideration would have a limit to the number of levels.

If only MindNode would offer a pure outline view. That would be nice. Sort of like Tinderbox without all the metadata.

thouqht wrote:

>tightbeam wrote:
>Is org mode really a viable option for 99.9999% of the population?

If someone is serious enough about their outlining to be on this forum,
they are likely serious enough for org-mode.

So, the answer is 'no'.

;-)

Ah - now here's another intriguing entry in the single-pane outliner stakes: XMind:ZEN

The latest version is both a mind-mapping tool and an outliner. I've not had a chance to assess it yet, but it looks intriguing - outliner mode looks about as single-pane as you can get... ;-)

And of course XMind runs on Windows, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android. The subscription isn't exactly cheap, however. But you can download an evaluation version!

Cheers,
Bill

Rats; while XMind are already promoting the latest version of XMind:ZEN, it's not available for download yet. You won't find the cool Outline feature in the version on their website (at the moment). Slightly forward of them, I feel!

Amontillado wrote:

If only MindNode would offer a pure outline view. That would be nice.
Sort of like Tinderbox without all the metadata.

Have you tried Mindomo? It has a full outline view which can be used instead of the mind map at will.

Amontillado wrote:

If only MindNode would offer a pure outline view. That would be nice. Sort of like Tinderbox without all the metadata.

Mindjet + Simplemind: Mindmaps + Outline, Both on Mac + Win & good.

Thanks, Washere. But there are way more accomplished and interesting people here!

I just downloaded it for Windows. It's installing as I write this.

MadaboutDana wrote:

Rats; while XMind are already promoting the latest version of XMind:ZEN,
it's not available for download yet. You won't find the cool Outline
feature in the version on their website (at the moment). Slightly
forward of them, I feel!

Xmind: It's beyond me why they introduced a second mindmapping tool. Why not integrate everything in Xmind Pro?
What appeals to me: They say they developed Xmind Zen from scratch, no old code base. Because Xmind Pro is painfully slow on my Windows machines (that is version 6, 7 and 8).

Stephen Diamond wrote:

The procedure described creates a printed outline with a topic/text distinction. But not, as far as I can tell, to actually compose the outline with that distinction showing. (That is, the equivalent of Word's body text or Inspiration's inline notes.

In case this help to see how to use IQ as a 1-pane outliner (with deep levels and hoist):

https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/?q=node/3489

Pierre

Alexander - Mindomo looks nice, but that does come at a price - $180 a year for the full blown version is a little high. If I lived in my mind map and used it as a direct revenue generator, giving presentations as a career, maybe.

The outline feature looks well integrated. I tend to use a mindmap as sort of an inventory of ideas, and an outline for sort of version-zero drafts, so I guess I don't really need to have the two views on the same data. It would be nice, though.

This may provide what I need:
"2.1 Heading vs Normal Items
When using InfoQube as a writing tool, it is important to distinguish between Headings and paragraphs (i.e. actual content):

Use the H or N command buttons to toggle between the two states
(an item is either a heading or a normal text item, never both)
By default, all items are Headings
Adding an item after a paragraph (normal item) creates a new paragraph"

Is this new or did I miss it? Can "normal text items" be hidden? (If so, what did you mean by suggesting IQ didn't have item folding?)

Can you tell me frankly what features that are found in some other powerful outline processors (such as, perhaps, folding) are _absent_ from IQ? Then I can decide whether I care about them.

Pierre Paul Landry wrote:

Stephen Diamond wrote:
> The procedure described creates a printed outline with a topic/text
distinction. But not, as far as I can tell, to actually compose the
outline with that distinction showing. (That is, the equivalent of
Word's body text or Inspiration's inline notes.

In case this help to see how to use IQ as a 1-pane outliner (with deep
levels and hoist):

https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/?q=node/3489

Pierre

Mindomo is promoting the subscription model which, similarly to TheBrain, provides both online and offline (desktop) access. Here, unless you need collaboration, you don't need to get the 180 rate; the 72 one should be fine. My company has the 180 which, per person, is an excellent deal.

If you don't need online access, you can also go for the desktop license 'classic' (non-subscription based) purchase https://www.mindomo.com/desktop/pricing.htm

(By the way, you see USD, I see EUR, so you are getting a better deal at current exchange rates!)


Amontillado wrote:

Alexander - Mindomo looks nice, but that does come at a price - $180 a
year for the full blown version is a little high. If I lived in my mind
map and used it as a direct revenue generator, giving presentations as a
career, maybe.