As Bob Mackreth mentioned, http://www.outlinersoftware.com/messages/viewm/2989 , Pocketthinker is shutting up shop - presumably owing to lack of customers. I also notice that its forum has disappeared, probably for good.

As one of a handful of Windows outliners, it always seemed to me to be very much underrated, and am sorry to see it go (and glad to have registered it). While Outlook linking may have had teething troubles, the outliner itself provided many of the necessary basic features (although not cloning or hoisting). As a single-pane outliner I found it about as easy to work in as NoteMap or Inspiration and ridiculously underpriced. Its importing and exporting functions - especially exporting to Word - were also pretty good. I thought it had a lot of potential; but maybe battling with Outlook integration, Activ-sync problems, and developing a ppc program as well a desktop one - all at the same time - was just too much to handle.

One more reason to think seriously about moving to a Mac, perhaps. The huge Windows user-base doesn't appear easily converted into a viable single-pane outliner market.

Derek

I actually chatted with the author. Business was so and so, but more important, he had no more interest in selling it (he has a demanding full-time job and no PDA anymore).

I offered to continue selling it and/or licencing the code but no news from him since that offer.

The main reason of my interest is that SQLNotes, which I develop, is a windows 1-pane outliner (based on the Ecco Pro concept) with rich text and columns and having a PocketPC version would be great. It uses OPML format which SQLNotes could easily generate.

I'm hoping he'll re-consider my offer.

Pierre Paul Landry
www.sqlnotes.net

That's very interesting, Pierre, and explains a lot. I hope he doesn't give up on further development entirely, though.

It looks as though the ppc version would be great for your purposes. For myself, I was hoping PT might eventually develop into a single-pane desktop outliner to rival Grandview in terms of features. I wasn't so interested in the ppc, Outlook integration, or pim-like features when I bought it - although I know that such a combination (i.e. your SQLNotes) is a very attractive proposition to a lot of users, especially Ecco ones.

Derek

It was pretty clear from his e-mails, that he had no interest in working on/selling it anymore.

As to a Grandview replacement, what features are missing in the current version of SQLNotes?

Derek Cornish wrote:

That's very interesting, Pierre, and explains a lot. I hope he doesn't give up on
further development entirely, though.

It looks as though the ppc version would be great for your purposes. For myself, I was hoping PT might eventually develop into a single-pane desktop outliner to rival Grandview in terms of features. I wasn't so interested in the ppc, Outlook integration, or pim-like features when I bought it - although I know that such a combination (i.e. your SQLNotes) is a very attractive proposition to a lot of users, especially Ecco ones.

PPL wrote:

As to a Grandview replacement, what features are missing in the current
version of SQLNotes?

I can't speak exactly to this question as I'm not all that familiar with SQLNotes (I have installed it and played around a little, but have not fully explored its features). However, I will try to answer your question based on my impressions.

As a single-pane outliner, Grandview was unique in my experience. Each heading (note or item, whatever you wish to call it) could have a full wordprocessing document associated with it. Here is how it worked: Create your heading, press the F5 key (I think that was the key) and you switch to a wordprocessing window in which you could write as much text as you wanted. This was a fully functional wordprocessor (lacking some of today's whistles and bells, such as tables). Once you were done, hit the F5 key again and return to the outline. Okay that's not so different than the way some of the two-pane outliners work. But here's the big difference: Now you can toggle the view so that you can see your outline with just the headers or the entire associated documents in the same pane. I found this very powerful, because good writing involves context. In Grandview you can see the whole project as if it were one long wordprocessing document, or you could view only its outline, or you could focus specifically on one section of the text. This ability to take in the many aspects of your project is the perfect writing environment, in my opinion. I have yet to find that functionality in any other outliner.

Steve Z.

Humm... I don't quite understand. The written text outline is shown as outline items or in the word-processing window? A picture is worth a thousand words, but I can't seem to find anything on GrandView (ActionOutline seems to have spammed it).

I got a zip file from which I should be able to install it, but I fail to see how I'm supposed to do that. Got it from:
http://vetusware.com/download/Symantec%20Grandview%202.0/?id=3631

I read that Ecco was inspired from GrandView. Since SQLNotes is inspired from Ecco, there may be a way here to resurrect GrandView...

PPL wrote:

It was pretty clear from his e-mails, that he had no interest in working on/selling it
anymore.

Well, I hope on further reflection he'll change his mind :-)

As to a Grandview replacement, what features are missing in the current
version of SQLNotes?

That's a very tall order (i) as I recently uninstalled SQLNotes - simply because I am looking for a fully-featured outliner to replace Grandview (GV), not an Ecco-type pim; and (ii) GV is a rather complex program. The two Steves - Steve Z, and Steve Cohen (who used to post here) - are the real GV experts. You can find archive postings on GV by them using the "Search" feature on this forum.

The best thing to do is to get hold of a copy yourself - not an easy thing as Symantec still holds copyright, is not going to give it up, and is not selling the program - a DOS one - any more. But a flavour of the program can be found by downloading its little brother PC-Outline, if you can find it (not the Windows version, which was awful, but the Brownbag Software's original DOS version). Look at:
http://www.jlarue.com/blastfrompast.html
...for a brief discussion of these DOS outliners, and
www.umich.edu/~archive/msdos/database/pcoutline/
...to download PC-Outline (pco330.arc).

Also http://www.faughnan.com/more/index.html contains some discussion of More (Mac) and GV (PC).

When considering single-pane outliners as writers' tools it's not simply a question of features - although GV can hoist, clone, gather, binsort, attach categories, and so on - but of general usability, and that intangible but important feeling of being in an undistracting "writer's environment" rather than in a spreadsheet or PIM. To me this means a program that's limited in the sense of being focused, and fit for purpose, much in the way that Zoot is. Less is more.

That is not, of course, to criticise, dismiss or demean the notion of adding of outlining features to PIMS, where - as in Ecco - they are essential IMO. But there are usually limits to what is feasible in the context of all the other objectives of the program and the constraints imposed on its design by these other goals.

Needless to say, the very best of luck in building GV's strengths into SQLNotes, and in creating a creative "island" within the software where one can close off all other distractions and concentrate on brainstorming, outlining and writing.

Derek

Humm… I don’t quite understand. The written text outline is shown as outline items or in the word-processing window? A picture is worth a thousand words, but I can’t seem to find anything on GrandView (ActionOutline seems to have spammed it).

Okay, try this image. Think of a two-pane outliner like ActionOutline. You create your structure in the tree pane, and then can write as much as you want in the note/editor window. Now visualize this... in the tree pane you can toggle the view so that you can either see just the item headers or the item headers with the note contents all in the tree view. Not only that, you can select which headers show their content and which do not.

I don't know if that helps you see what I mean or not. I hope so.

Steve Z.

A picture is worth a thousand words, but I can’t seem to find anything on GrandView

I've emailed some screenshots (*.png) to your website support address.

Derek

Derek Cornish wrote:

> A picture is worth a thousand words, but I can’t seem to find anything on GrandView

I've emailed some screenshots (*.png) to your website support address.

Thanks! I've done a demo of how SQLNotes can show/hide the rich-text right in the outline. It is a very rough demo of a first cut at such a feature according to what Stephen Zeoli was mentioning here earlier:

Okay, try this image. Think of a two-pane outliner like ActionOutline. You create your structure in the tree pane, and then can write as much as you want in the note/editor window. Now visualize this… in the tree pane you can toggle the view so that you can either see just the item headers or the item headers with the note contents all in the tree view. Not only that, you can select which headers show their content and which do not.

The video can be seen here:
http://www.sqlnotes.net/public/download/SQLNotes/TextOutliner/outliner.wmv

Pierre -

That's very neat! I' ll email you screenshots of how GV does it, using my post to Steve in another thread as an example.

Derek

Derek Cornish wrote:

Pierre -

That's very neat! I' ll email you screenshots of how GV does it, using my post
to Steve in another thread as an example.

I've given some thought to this and the initial approach was cumbersome. A much better one, similar to how GrandView was, is to include the document as a regular item right under the heading. F6 (or some other key -- F5 is already used) will toggle display of the document. Editing of the document will be identical to heading, making it much more fluid.

Columns could be shown in headings to show such information as number of words, last modification date of the section, etc. Using the hierarchy calculations (column math) will total this all the way up to the main heading

Columns would be suppressed for document items, to make maximum use of the screen.

If 2 headings are merged, so would the associated documents.

Expect a new demo in a few days

Pierre, www.sqlnotes.net

p.s. Thanks for the screenshots!

If anyone's interested in trying out Grandview, here's how to do it on Windows XP with the version you can download at http://vetusware.com/download/Symantec%20Grandview%202.0/?id=3631 as mentioned previously on this thread.

That zip file has three strange files in it called gv printer.IMA, gv program.IMA and gv utilitie.IMA

The files are image files. You can extract them with WinImage, found at http://www.winimage.com/download.htm I used version 6.1 based on something I read while Googling. Don't know if it would work with a later version. It's shareware, so you can use it this one time without actually buying WinImage.

I extracted all the files into a single directory. Then I opened up a DOS command window and ran install.exe from that directory. I chose to install it into a directory on the C: drive, although it gives you the option of installing it elsewhere. The installer complains about not finding some sample files that aren't included with the download, but you can skip those. I also skipped the printer installation, since I don't happen to have any 15-year-old printers lying around.

You need to run the program from within the DOS command window by navigating to the install directory. If you just try to click on the shortcut for the program or by clicking on GV.EXE from within Windows it will complain about an invalid start directory and instruct you to check your pif file.

More than 15 years after first reading someone rave about Grandview, I finally got to see it for myself. It truly must be Christmas. I didn't play with it too long, but everything seemed to work, and I even exported a few test outlines to a text file, which worked fine. I do like the way you can show and hide full documents in the outline with just a keystroke. Why are such simple, obvious and useful features so rarely emulated?

I followed your directions and got GV working on my computer. Thank you for the instructions. So, this the the fantastic GrandView that I've read about for so long. I'll play with it when I can.

I do some simple work with pocketthinker on my hp4705 and I'm sorry to hear that the doors will close on this fine example of ppc software. I downloaded the PC version with the intention of buying it before 1/1/08. GeorgeB-)

Look forward to seeing it.

Derek

Mark wrote:

I do like the way you can show and hide full documents
in the outline with just a keystroke. Why are such simple, obvious and useful features
so rarely emulated?

Why indeed? It's this ease of getting around and manipulating the outline that is so important. Brainstorm achieves much of this fluidity, too, although it is a rather different beast from GV. Maxthink (DOS) did, too. The windows version has the features, but not yet the fluidity, IMO.

Derek

All DOS programs, or programs that began with DOS. Maybe there's something about Windows, with its emphasis on menus, pop-up dialogs, etc., that makes it harder to do, or less likely it will be done with elegance.

Pierre, sorry, but that's a problem with SQLNotes from my brief experience with it: It throws too much Windows gunk at you when you first start the program.

That's apparent in your screenshots: http://www.sqlnotes.net/Screenshots/tabid/60/Default.aspx

It gives me a headache just looking at it. My advice would be to strip the interface to its barest essentials -- keep all that power, but let the user discover it as needed.

I have to disagree. I have a real problem with programs that hide their power, and SQLNotes for me would be far better if it showed what it could do - it is crying out for documentation.

That aside, I've never quite understood why people require the blank page approach with outliners. Are people really so distracted by a menu? Does a sheet of paper have to be blank to write ideas down on it? I don't get it, I'm afraid .... perhaps it's a personal thing.

Graham

Mark wrote:

All DOS programs, or programs that began with DOS. Maybe there's something about
Windows, with its emphasis on menus, pop-up dialogs, etc., that makes it harder to do,
or less likely it will be done with elegance.

Pierre, sorry, but that's a problem
with SQLNotes from my brief experience with it: It throws too much Windows gunk at you
when you first start the program.

That's apparent in your screenshots:
http://www.sqlnotes.net/Screenshots/tabid/60/Default.aspx

It gives me a
headache just looking at it. My advice would be to strip the interface to its barest
essentials -- keep all that power, but let the user discover it as needed.

Yes, definitely a personal thing ;-) To each his own.

Reminds me of the criticism Microsoft gets vis a vis Apple when it comes to design, as embodied in this YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXAcwriid0

Apple's products under Jobs are more artfully made, but Microsoft has been far more successful the last two decades...

Mark wrote:

Pierre, sorry, but that’s a problem with SQLNotes from my brief experience with it: It throws too much Windows gunk at you when you first start the program.

A few click and it can look as plain as this:
http://www.sqlnotes.net/public/download/SQLNotes/TextOutliner/SimpleView.jpg

Graham wrote:

SQLNotes for me would be far better if it showed what it could do - it is crying out for documentation.

Documentation is improving! Checkout the basic documentation and examples here:
http://sqlnotes.wikispaces.com/

and live in the default template (File>New)

I have to agree with Mark that in a writing environment, less is more. However, I wouldn't phrase it as hiding the power. Rather, I'd say it is making the power features optional... which seems to be the approach Pierre has taken with SQLNotes. I have to say, I found the screen that Pierre linked to with just the outline so much more inviting than the complex, multi-window views. Perhaps it comes with having learned to write using a typewriter, where one does start with a blank page.

Steve Z.

Mark and Steve Z are correct. Having taught for several years in one of my former lives, I developed the philosophy that one should treat ones students (viewers, potential customers, etc.) as being intelligent, but perhaps unfamiliar with the subject at hand. Thus, I would not start an advanced calculus class with Fubini and Stokes theorems.

I essentially offered Mark's & Steve Z's advice to Kinook (UltraRecall) a few months ago. It is certainly OK to tell your viewer of the power available in your product, but start with a simple screen shot showing the most basic functionality. Then follow with screen shots separately showing each of the other features. But don't throw all of the ingredients into the meal or screen shot at once. (Do any of us ever have all of the possible windows, menu items, dialog boxes, etc. open at once?)

-c

Mark wrote regarding GrandView installation:

I extracted all the files into a single directory. Then I opened up a DOS command window and ran install.exe from that directory.

Install.exe did not want to run. It needed to run from the main directory of a drive. So I did a subst:
subst Y: c:\setup\grandview
Y:install.exe

Install went fine after that. Expect SQLNotes to progressively implement some GV features.

A few click and it can look as plain as this:

http://www.sqlnotes.net/public/download/SQLNotes/TextOutliner/SimpleView.jpg

I like this. Even more so if I can turn off the lines between the items, the yellow background color, the toolbar and the status bar. :-)

I like this. Even more so if I can turn off the lines between the items, the yellow background color, the toolbar and the status bar. :-)

All can be done in the current version except grid lines. I'll add it tomorrow.

Color: Tool>Options
Toolbar: right-click on it
Status bar: View>Status bar