What would be the features and benefits of your ultimate outliner? I'm thinking of "outliner" in the stricter sense as a writing tool, rather than an all-purpose PIM (calendars, addresses and the lot). "Outlining" in this sense though could still span the entire writing process, from brainstorming, note-taking, organising, analysis, to synthesis, outlining, drafting and writing up, perhaps even word processing, if you insist.

Imagine, you have the ears of the world's foremost outliner developers. What would you tell them? Try to provide an example, if a feature like that already exists.

To kick it off, for me this would be a composite picture of BrainStorm, Natara Bonsai, Outline 4D, ConnectedText, Freeplane, myInfo, possibly with some NoteMap and Maxthink thrown in for good measure.

It would have to be modular like ConnectedText, so that panes can be detached and split across two or more monitors, while their functions continue to be related.

It would have to be flexible like Bonsai, so that one could change it from a single-pane outliner to a 2- or 3-pane outliner.

It would have to be a good list sorter like BrainStorm or Bonsai, with the ability to categorise/label/prioritise each item, and then be able to set up a range of columns easily, like in MLO, with custom-columns, like in myInfo. It should have some quirky shortcut to throw selected items quickly in a "bag", like on BrainStorm, Maxthink or NoteMap.

It would need to function as a single-pane outliner with inline notes, with all the outline views that Outline 4D currently supports (gradation from skeletal view to full text view with several interim views).

It should be possible to switch between an outline view and a mind map view with a single click.

It would have an improved version of Outline 4D's "timeline view," to be able to view the outline in index card form.

Yes to all the features Dr. Andus listed, plus

- hoisting (drilling down on one section, collapsing the rest)
- a table feature as in Ecco for info such as status, POV (in fiction), todo, etc.
- import/export (Word/LibreOffice DOC/DOCX/ODT incl. styles, RTF, TXT, HTML, OPML, maybe Excel or CSV, Mindmanager/Freemind mindmaps,)
- multiple document windows (MDI)

I agree with just about all of the features.

In terms of a program which I think is becoming increasingly elegant and very flexible, I think of Noteliner - http://www.noteliner.org/ .

Here is a brief product description from the Noteliner site: "A project and information management application that is as simple and lightweight as a text editor, with the power of an outliner, the metadata of a to-do list, tables, and Gantt charts!"

Often when I see what people are looking for, or what they want to do, whether here or elsewhere on the web, Noteliner springs to mind.

Daly

Franz Grieser wrote:

Yes to all the features Dr. Andus listed, plus

- hoisting (drilling down on one section, collapsing the rest)
- a table feature as in Ecco for info such as status, POV (in fiction),
todo, etc.
- import/export (Word/LibreOffice DOC/DOCX/ODT incl. styles, RTF, TXT,
HTML, OPML, maybe Excel or CSV, Mindmanager/Freemind mindmaps,)
- multiple document windows (MDI)

Franz Grieser wrote:

- hoisting (drilling down on one section, collapsing the rest)

I'd like Bonsai's hoisting approach: zoom in and out level-by-level with individual mouse clicks, and turn off (go back to full view) with a single click.

I'd also like Bonsai's gradual "expand" function level-by-level, using mouse-clicks: Expand Level 1, 2, 3, 4 or All.

I forgot to mention the ability to colour in by hierarchical level easily, like in Bonsai, and esp. Outline 4D.

All I want is Brainstorm but with the ability to edit in "balloon mode" or whatever it was called. Essentially, to be able to turn-off "perma-hoist"

Oh, and OPML support, so I can pass the outline around other apps.

For me, a key element is how well it exports or copies and pastes into Microsoft Word. If I have to clean it up after pulling it into Word, it isn't saving me time. Of the ones I tested, Noteliner seemed to handle this best so far.

- text editor with integrated tree structure (commonly called "single-pane outliner") and columnar grid.
- items in tree can be of any length
- items can be freely split into multiple items or joined into one item
- user-defined fields

So far I've seen the foregoing only in Ecco and Infoqube, among Windows outliners.

- relational database capabilities, including the ability to create tables of related fields, and the ability to join tables, ability to deal with one-to-many etc. relationships. Haven't seen this yet.

- syncing with replica databases residing on multiple computers, as in Ecco - changes on a database on any one computer propagate to the replica databases on the other computers
- syncing with cloud (Google, Evernote)
- mobile apps

- "context free mode" - ability to view, group, sort items outside of the tree-structure as well as within

This would just be the start of my wish list, I've got many more.

shatteredmindofbob wrote:

Oh, and OPML support, so I can pass the outline around other apps.

Brainstorm is able to export OPML, though I haven't tested its compliance. Personally, I find the Tab Indented Text format as the most useful for moving information around outliners, including mindmappers. The downside is that Tab Indented Text does not differentiate between outline titles and inline text.

A good tool for transcribing files is Notecase which supports the largest number of formats I am aware of. I believe that the free version supports such conversions.

Re the original thread question, after so many years working with different tools, I am less interested in seeing more operational features being added, than in the interoperability of different applications. This is becoming more essential for me as more of my products need to be published online. As an example, in the past I found The Journal's ability to publish directly to CMSs like WordPress and Blogger a very clever addition; unfortunately, the program overall was not what I needed.

That said, an editable outline view in Brainstorm would be nice.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

Re the original thread question, after so many years working with
different tools, I am less interested in seeing more operational
features being added, than in the interoperability of different
applications.

Sure, but isn't that the effect of there not being an "ultimate outliner" or something reasonably close to it? I don't mean to engage in utopian yearning, I realise things move on and there never will be an "ultimate outliner" per se. But we could still have a common set up features that are considered to be the gold standard and which developers aspire to.

Also, I wasn't implying that the "ultimate outliner" would need to have a huge number of features. It's about having the right kind of features, and simplicity can be one of the criteria (e.g. to have a distraction-free mode, such as Scrivener).

Plus, to achieve general interoperability, one would need some sort of a community consensus between outliner developers, which I just can't see arising anytime soon (especially as development gets abandoned).

E.g. one thing that frustrates me is that I don't seem to be able to export and import outline items with notes from outliner to outliner without the notes being lost. Is there a way e.g. to export a Bonsai (or any other single-pane) outline with notes and import them into Freeplane (with notes preserved)? I haven't been able to do so with OPML or anything else that I tried. I can export them into RTF, but that seems to be it.

Dr Andus wrote:

Also, I wasn't implying that the "ultimate outliner" would need to have
a huge number of features. It's about having the right kind of features,
and simplicity can be one of the criteria (e.g. to have a
distraction-free mode, such as Scrivener).

I think simplicity - or at least, an interface that's more or less intuitively understandable - is extremely important, and sometimes under-rated. (See previous threads on Neo and OmniOutliner, for example.) Some developers appear to have a talent for rendering complexity simple, others don't. That's one reason why I put Ecco Pro close to the top of my list of all-time greats.

Plus, to achieve general interoperability, one would need some sort of a
community consensus between outliner developers, which I just can't see
arising anytime soon (especially as development gets abandoned).

In my experience interoperability seems to be slightly easier on the Mac platform (although some may disagree). Harmony (some would say uniformity!) of UI, and a degree of commonality of import and export formats, usually including OPML, seem to be more prevalent. Applescript may also help extensively. And there are a few efforts, via either or both developers and superusers, to build closer co-operation in practical terms (e.g. Tinderbox with Scrivener, OmniFocus and OmniOutliner with Devonthink). Apple's attempts to enforce sand-boxing of applications occasionally appear to make co-operation between apps more difficult, however.

Great topic, Doc!

This will probably not surprise anyone who has read my ravings, but just give me modern GrandView and I'll be happy as can be. If I'm getting greedy, I'd add:

* Cross-platform, Windows and Mac
* No need for mind-mapping feature, but ability to both import and export mind map formats
* Fast, real-time search
* Word-like editing functions -- that is, when writing, having the same experience as with Word, notably extended selection
* A committed developer who won't abandon the application

That's probably not all, but that is what comes to mind. Of all the ouliners available on any platform, my favorite is Tinderbox. If the promised iPad version of Tbx is even close to the Mac version, I will be one step closer to CRIMP heaven.

Steve Z.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

I am less interested in seeing more operational
features being added, than in the interoperability of different
applications. This is becoming more essential for me as more of my
products need to be published online.

Perhaps more of this will come. Microsoft at least has created a framework for interoperable solutions in Windows 8.
"In Windows 8, sharing is a ubiquitous experience and a natural user expectation. Users often come across content in your app that they’re excited to share with friends or use in another app. As a developer you can meet this user expectation by using the Share contract which provides a lightweight, contextual and easy model for accomplishing app-to-app sharing. "

See: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsappdev/archive/2012/12/12/sharing-from-your-app.aspx

This is also interesting. It's a video of the sharing across MS Office 2013, working from within Outlook. Its not the solution for me but I am very impressed with the improvement in interoperability.
http://officeignitelabs.cloudguides.com/Labs/The%20New%20Office.htm

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

* No need for mind-mapping feature, but ability to both import and
export mind map formats

I'd have agreed with you until very recently. Actually I'm reasonably happy with how ConnectedText and Freeplane can be integrated via export/import. However, if they work so well together, then I get greedy and I'd just like a one-click option to turn a CT outline into a mind map and back.

In fact I've just realised that Freeplane can now be considered a de facto single-pane outliner with inline notes! Just right click on a mind map and select "outline view" and it produces a decent outline.

On top of that Freeplane can handle both internal and external links, including to documents in other applications, such as ConnectedText topics (which turns it into a simultaneous single-pane and dual-pane outliner, as you can still have the inline notes plus the externally linked CT note).

$Bill wrote:

Microsoft at least has created a framework for interoperable solutions in Windows 8.

Darn; given my history with DOS/Windows I was hoping to keep out of Windows 8 and jump directly to 9.

* hoisting
* cloning
* mark and gather and other multi-item and organizational/structural operations
* complete control via keyboard
* multi-platform with synchronization but ability to work offline on every platform
* two types of search result displays - a flat list of matching items, with contextual snippets around the search term(s) shown, and an outline view of search results (in other words, the outline structure is still shown, but filtered to only include matching items)
* word/paragraph counts for selected item, selected branch, and entire outline
* extensive import/export capabilities

I'd add ability to break down a large piece of text into outline items (title + text fragment), such as “Split with Selection as Title” in Scrivener, "Cut to new topic" in CT, or "Split Event" in O4D and then be able to re-attach them to a new outline (such as drag-n-drop of topics onto outline in CT) or re-arrange them quickly with keyboard.

Wait a moment:

Chris Murtland wrote:

* two types of search result displays - a flat list of matching items,
with contextual snippets around the search term(s) shown, and an outline
view of search results (in other words, the outline structure is still
shown, but filtered to only include matching items)
* word/paragraph counts for selected item, selected branch, and entire
outline

Dr. Andus wrote:

I’d add ability to break down a large piece of text into outline items (title + text fragment), such as “Split with Selection as Title” in Scrivener,

Now, we're leaving outliners and getting into writing environments.
Or do you really write that much in Bonsai, Noteliner, Notemap, OmniOutliner, Neo, etc. to REALLY need these features?

Sorry, I am just trying to keep the feature set as small as possible :-)

Franz

Grieser wrote:

Wait a moment:
Now, we're leaving outliners and getting into writing environments.
Or do you really write that much in Bonsai, Noteliner, Notemap,
OmniOutliner, Neo, etc. to REALLY need these features?

Sorry, I am just trying to keep the feature set as small as possible :-)

In the first post I did say "'Outlining' in this sense though could still span the entire writing process, from brainstorming, note-taking, organising, analysis, to synthesis, outlining, drafting and writing up."

But I understand your concern. Nevertheless, it is already possible in Outline 4D to switch between a skeletal outline and one with long inline notes with a single mouse-click or hotkey combination.

My biggest problem with outliners recently has been how to move from the initial skeletal outline to one with inline notes and then to the first draft. it throws up all kinds of conceptual and technical problems. And the solution has been to use an outliner (O4D) rather than a "writing environment" (such as Scrivener) for the drafting/writing up, so that reverse outlining can be carried out (which is what the above feature can also be used for).

But I'd also say that managing textual fragments (notes, quotes) and outlining are closely related and it's a bit of a poorly served area. CT and PiggyDB seem to have some answers to it, but generally it's not all that easy to create an outline first, and then quickly link its items with existing text snippets of notes and quotes so that they become integrated as the "inline notes" of the outline items, as part of the process of turning the outline into a full draft.

This is kind of what I was getting at this blog post:
http://drandus.wordpress.com/2013/01/10/academic-writing-workflow-with-connectedtext-freeplane-and-outline-4d/

Gee,... I did everything [that was possible] in GrandView. Of course, I couldn't evaluate mathematical functions in it, but I did create some keyboard macros that allowed me to include some mathematical expressions. The "Document View" allowed one to add extra notes, text snippets, etc. and display or hide them. I even created a keyboard macro to reverse an outline or suboutline.

My dissertation was written long before PCs, Apples, Commodores, etc. I wrote it on a small portable Olivetti Lettera 22, with some replaceable math symbol keys. It was done mostly lying almost horizontal in bed...my favorite location for thought and otherwise.
-c.

OK then, I will succumb; I will let my imagination go wild; I will let it fly beyond the mountains of flatland, dive into the valley of outlining, land atop the tree of the million branches and engage in a discussion of endless possibilities.

An outliner is for me above all a tool to build order out of chaos; so, starting from chaos, my ideal outliner would help me gather my building elements from a variety of sources, so it should:
- autopaste content from the clipboard, ideally with an option to strip formatting and keep the text only
- be available via a global hotkey to rapidly create a new note or view the full material
- be able to read and import data from a variety of databases, text formats and hierarchical tools
- work in multiple platforms (Windows, Linux, Android at least) and be Dropbox-friendly
- be able to read an email address so that I can mail it material from anywhere

and moving on to order, it should be able to reorganise the elements in a variety of ways, such as
- multi-select / mark and gather
- drag and drop
- buckets / throw / retrieve
- split or join information entities
- hierarchical tags
- columns for metadata fields of different kinds, including dates, boolean, numbers / support calculations on the hierarchy
- clones
- search and highlight / find-replace
- sort / rearrange
- footnotes / endnotes
- regular expressions and macros for all of the above
- multiple views, including flat, tag hierarchy, hoist, 1- or 2-pane (detail text inline or in second pane), mind map, 3-D mind map (with rotate and the like), show from point of view of entity x, minimal full screen view, etc.
- zoomable view / auto-expand to specific level
- multiple document interface

all this in a convenient way, i.e.
- keyboard shortcuts for everything
- boilerplate / saved hierarchies

I am contemplating whether my ideal outliner would support rich text formatting; in truth I find it distracting; on the other hands plain text is lousy for tables and other complex information elements... What the heck, since I can ask for anything, I would want
- full rich text formatting capabilities, including auto-styling of different levels, with several preformatted and customisable templates
- a simplified plain text view
- real-time hierarchical word count

Last but not least, it should be able to export its outcomes, ideally syncing with a tool which is more powerful in terms of formatting for publishing.

Interestingly, I believe I have access to just about every one of the above features in some tool that I own, but of course very few combine a good number of them. It is as if developers often believe that the one useful feature they provide should be enough for everyone.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

Interestingly, I believe I have access to just about every one of the
above features in some tool that I own, but of course very few combine a
good number of them. It is as if developers often believe that the one
useful feature they provide should be enough for everyone.

Great list, Alexander!

Yes, and it is not always that easy to integrate them into a system, either. I've seen some neat tricks with AutoHotkey recently, which makes me want to learn it, so I can fill in the gaps in my workflow, while waiting for the ultimate outliner...

In terms of academic process flow, what I've been finding challenging is to a) to be able to annotate a reading, b) have the annotations organised thematically into a a hierarchy (outline) while preserving the integrity of the original text, c) be able to make a selection of these annotated sections (quotes and my comments) and integrate them into another (overall) outline for the developing draft as inline notes.

Usually I end up with too many quotes and notes but only a selection will be important later on. However, I don't know upfront, which one of e.g. 10 equally interesting and relevant quotes will I select to be included in the final text. So there needs to be some separation between an initial hierarchical organisation of the quotes and notes and a second outline for the final draft.

I have just about figured out a workflow process for this, as I've described it in the previously mentioned blog post on CT+Freeplane+Outline 4D with some AutoHotkey, but haven't had a chance to fully trial it yet. My problem so far has been that I've been reluctant to break up large readings into small textual fragments, for the fear of generating too many items that might overwhelm me and also I didn't want to lose the context of the original text.

Thanks to Manfred Kuehn's neat AHK script, I am now able to "copy to new topic with link", which means that the original text will remain intact but there will be a new topic created with the fragment that has a hyperlink to its source. So I can use these fragments for constructing the first outline, and then make a selection out of them for the second outline. At one point this CT outline will be exported into a Freeplane mind map, with links back to the fragments in CT, thus constructing a virtual two-pane outliner with a mind map in one window and corresponding notes in CT in another window.

I hope this description wasn't too obscure. I haven't spent enough time with Piggydb but I have a feeling that it is looking for some kind of a solution to this problem of dealing with textual fragments. Anyway, I would expect from my ultimate tool to allow me to carry out this process fairly easily. I think I've cracked it with my current system, but it took a lot of messing about and it wouldn't have come about if Manfred wasn't so kind to fix that script for me.

Just to distill what I was getting at in the previous post: I think the ultimate outliner needs to have a very easy (drag-n-drop, hotkey, markup) internal and external linking capability, so that all items and notes can be linked to each other, can link to items and notes in other applications, and they can be linked to from other apps too.

Currently this is most fully implemented in wikis and mind maps (which is why I like the CT+Freeplane combo), though there are other outliners/note-takers with limited linking capabilities (Surfulater, WhizFolders, Bonsai).