Hi everyone,
Been reading this forum for a while... It's obvious that there a lot of fellow CRIMPers here.
My question is: Why do you CRIMP?

I use various outliners, info visualizers, PIMs, etc to gather ideas for long term goals, and then break them down to form best plan of attack.

I go from software to software, constantly looking for something that can capture and synthesize my thoughts better.
At the end of the day, I think I'm CRIMPing because it's more fun learning/using new software to organize info, than it is to actually just organize my info. :)

Also, maybe it makes me feel like I'm *doing* something productive when I move information around.
Once I've organized info in a software and need to start turning the info into action, I go on to other software to move information there (and feel productive without doing the actions :)).

Anyway... Wanted to share my own tendencies!

Lastly (catering to my CRIMP side :)) - What software have you found to most effectively turn your long term big goals/ideas into action?

I think I'm just fascinated with the whole process of extending our brains with the aid of the personal computer - to remember better, to organize better, etc. The funny thing is that by spending so much time experimenting I might be actually reducing my productivity - but I don't care. We're sort of pioneers I think.

I no longer CRIMP, but I used to because of the following needs/problems, whether consciously or unconsciously felt:
1. mental fragmentation
2. inability to efficiently determine best next action
3. mental resistance due to info fragmentation and lack of reliable procedures
4. lack of tools needed to execute info workflow

org-mode, wordpress, BrainStormWFO

It's fun.

GeorgeB used my answer, so I'll elaborate: It's damn fun.

I'm intrigued by how people try to solve the problem of information overload. I have been since I got my first personal computer almost 30 years ago. One of the first applications I bought was a flat-file database. I don't even want to consider how much money I've invested in software since.

I do wonder, though, if GrandView had been successfully ported to Windows, would I still be hunting around for the perfect application? Maybe I can sue Symantec for loss of productivity and the cost of all the software I've been trying to replace GrandView!

Steve Z.

It is fun, isn't it? :)
I've always wondered how big the PIM/Outliner type of market is...
Must not be big enough, since apps keep dying and going away.

Why CRIMP? Because I can only handle so much of The Pomodoro Technique - http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/ before I feel like a slave to my work at hand. A guy has to dream once in a while that he is in charge of his work load, and not vice-versa. ;)

--Ken

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

....>I do wonder, though, if GrandView had been successfully ported to
Windows, would I still be hunting around for the perfect application? Maybe I can sue
Symantec for loss of productivity and the cost of all the software I've been trying to
replace GrandView!

=================
YES! I felt absolutely no crimping desire while I was able to fully use GV.

-cassius

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

GeorgeB used my answer, so I'll elaborate: It's damn fun.

I'm intrigued by how people try to solve the problem of information overload.

Steve Z.

Well Steve, I CRIMP because I try to expand the problem of info overload!
Since there's always more room on the hard drive, why not add some more trivial information that I might not ever need?


I do agree with your thoughts on Grandview. Most of what I do is giving speeches/presentations, and I'm constantly re-organizing my thoughts (and having to think of new things to say.) Grandview was truly effective for what I used it for (but hey, it wasn't loaded down with being a windows program.

DaXiong wrote:

Well Steve, I CRIMP because I try to expand the problem of
info overload!
Since there's always more room on the hard drive, why not add some more
trivial information that I might not ever need?

There's a lot of truth in this. Aren't we all trying to use these programs to retain, organize, and recall and as much of the information in our lives as we can?



Computers can be sort of a brain extension - enabling us to have ready access to a greatly expanded collection of information far beyond what we can hold in our brains. By organizing the information we can improve our ability to synthesize it, absorb it, and recall it when we need it. CRIMPing is a search for the most

jimspoon wrote:

Aren't we all trying to use these programs to retain, organize, and recall and as much
of the information in our lives as we can?

Building on from Dr Andus' comment here http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/3155/0/from-mindmaps-to-outlines-on-the-ipad I'd say that, for the last 20 years at least, when confronted with major and/or complex information-related tasks, I've often thought "there must be an easier way to do this" and went off to test some software that could perhaps help me to do it more effectively. Secretly I would maintain a hope that the software would also make the task more enjoyable.

So, in brief:

1a. I CRIMP because I have things to do
1b. and hope to do them more effectively
1c. and enjoyably,
2. but remain unsatisfied by many of the solutions I've already tried
3. On the road to the 'perfect' solution I find that I enjoy the hunt itself (as many others here have pointed out)
4. which means that there's a danger of sticking to the hunt instead of the work
5. That said, I can think of several instances where without some of these tools I would have been defenseless in the face of major undertakings; i.e. the hunt did pay off
6a. A key factor in getting work done is deciding that a tool is 'good enough' to actually start using it
6b. Otherwise... (back to point 2.)

Aexander wrote:

"1a. I CRIMP because I have things to do

1b. and hope to do them more effectively
1c. and enjoyably,
2. but remain unsatisfied by many of the solutions I?ve already tried
3. On the road to the ?perfect? solution I find that I enjoy the hunt itself (as many others here have pointed out)
4. which means that there?s a danger of sticking to the hunt instead of the work
5. That said, I can think of several instances where without some of these tools I would have been defenseless in the face of major undertakings; i.e. the hunt did pay off
6a. A key factor in getting work done is deciding that a tool is ?good enough? to actually start using it
6b. Otherwise? (back to point 2.)"

I almost mapped this out in Flying Logic! :)

tradercclee wrote:

I almost mapped this out in Flying Logic! :)

Now there's a program I have yet to try!

Dang Jimspoon, have you been reading Cyborganize? This is the second thread where I"ve agreed with everything you said and copied down your ideas to paraphrase in my own website. I can't help wondering if it's coincidental convergence or cross-pollination.

There's lots of emotional reasons I have that matches w/ many of the ones posted here however the main reason I CRIMP is because formatting operating systems is too complicated even as a guest OS and many of the software I'm using is already sentimentally linked to my desires.

Finding a new software not only allows me a blank space but it challenges both my personal execution in handling things but also the design of the software and the way I use my current collection. Even in things like previously uninstalled updated software, I sometimes go back to them because it drives new ideas as to what I'm searching for. It also reminds me of previous places I might have visited and then forgotten.

This forum being one example. I only ever recall this forum if I'm remembering Surfulator or UltraRecall. Even though it's in my bookmark, I never have any intention to go back here first because my first thought often comes up thinking: "I'm not looking for outliners." Then I fail to find forums that links to unorthodox software. I go back here. And my failure of finding out programs I want to find satisfies that nagging curiosity in me and then I leave OutlinerSoftware again.

I think the OutlinerSoftware title is misguiding, as we discuss many non-outline related information management software here. At the same time there are several reasons for the name:

- Historical: this forum is the continuation of the outliners.com forum started in the previous century (!) by Dave Winer

- Practical: outliners are everywhere, even if used as complementary views; it amazes me that even a 3-D tool like Personal Brain now has an outline view

- Emotional: I believe that, at some point in time, most of us were helped to make sense of some complex situation through breaking down the relevant information into an outline; I know I did, and I still haven't found something equally satisfying

...and more

From my part, I cannot think of a single personal information management program that I ever heard of, which has not been discussed in this forum to a significant degree.

Foolness wrote:

This forum being one example. I only ever
recall this forum if I'm remembering Surfulator or UltraRecall. Even though it's in
my bookmark, I never have any intention to go back here first because my first thought
often comes up thinking: "I'm not looking for outliners." Then I fail to find forums
that links to unorthodox software. I go back here. And my failure of finding out
programs I want to find satisfies that nagging curiosity in me and then I leave
OutlinerSoftware again.

That's true and I apologize if I made it sound that way.

It's not so much the name of the site but the culture.

The forum itself is great in that it gets many people talking about these things but as a culture I feel it's very umm... Ultra Recall/MyBase/etc. Some parts advanced PIM users, some parts about people wanting notetakers mixed with number crunching.

Not that I have find a much better site but it's very rare here for people to all gather and you would get people who absolutely swore by a program like Compendium even though it has been mentioned. Even Goalscape for example, I could count three threads I think that has mentioned it.

It's a culture that's very into outlines except for updating everyone about a new software. DonationCoder does not have the same theme but seeing as I came from DC into here - take that place for example. People may swear by Surfulator, UltraRecall, InfoQube but there's also a user there who swears by Notezilla.

Now it doesn't mean people don't mention Notezilla here but it's one thing to know about it, it's another thing for a user to absolutely swear by a desktop sticky notes program. It's that kind of diversity that I haven't seen much in a forum yet. Even lately, it's JB that has put into limelight somewhat Brainstorm where as others don't quite bring it up. Part of it may be that the most often mentioned ones are probably also the most applicable to everyone but seeing as there are popular programs that don't often match with the interest of many of the threads here and also taking into account the design of how forums create cultures - I would assume this is really more a product of people here being able to get outliners to work. (For me, on the other hand, it's gotten to the point that the tree view makes my head hurt if it's in a sidebar. Even if it's just a video. I could only mostly work with some pseudo-outline although it's not like I have a job but as far as my software collection has been, I almost have no tree-list sidebar outliner. At most I have a single pane program that shows a basic outline.)

There is another element to the crimp discussion that may be relevant, namely the category of software under discussion here. We mostly talk about personal information management software (emphasis on the word ?personal?).

Invariably, this involves understanding and working with our personal preferences, learning styles and life goals. In short, we find ourselves endlessly fascinating.

So if we are at all into self improvement or personal productivity or even just a bit of reflection, we will keep trying different software solutions in an endless and fruitless bid for satisfaction and perfection.

And yes, it is fun as well!


Jack

Foolness,

I guess most of us here have our personal favourite applications --perhaps because our brains work a bit like their respective developers- but I have yet to find someone who swears by any tool. I think if any of us was such a fan, they would not be going around CRIMPing :-)

I don't think that most of us are stuck with the usual contemporary UltraRecalls and the like. In the contrary, I find great diversity, and I think you will too, if you go back a couple of years in the posts.

To take one example, Brainstorm has been my own beloved tool for many years; I'm surprised myself about how much I've written about it here. However, towards the end of its development under its original ownership, the transition to the new Microsoft libraries broke its handling of non-latin characters. As a result, Brainstorm became unusable for about 40% of my work.

It is quite reasonable to discuss UltraRecalls and the like, because they are most recently updated. But you will find people who trust their valuable info in many different tools, such as Echo, InfoQube, TreeSheets, Zoot, Connected Text, Cintanotes and several others, quite a few of which are anything but typical outliners. Perhaps there are not so many here behind each of those, but then again, there are not so many of us here posting.

In fact, I am enthused by the several people who have followed the forum and have recently began contributing new perspectives. More, I say!

Jack,

You hit the nail on the head! My own quest for the holy grail(s) in personal information management --and most recently collaborative applications too- goes hand in hand with my quest for better personal life management, for better societal contribution, and even for a better spirituality.

Not much to add to your point; other than my subjective aphorism that "more is not necessarily better, but neither is less..."

Jack Crawford wrote:

So if we
are at all into self improvement or personal productivity or even just a bit of
reflection, we will keep trying different software solutions in an endless and
fruitless bid for satisfaction and perfection.

JBfrom wrote:

Dang Jimspoon, have you been reading Cyborganize? This is the second thread where
I"ve agreed with everything you said and copied down your ideas to paraphrase in my own
website. I can't help wondering if it's coincidental convergence or
cross-pollination.

Not yet, JB, but I plan to look at what you've come up with. I'm realizing that that the search for the ideal PIM software is really subordinate to the search for the ideal method of processing information. (Of course better tools make new methods possible, and can lead us to those new methods.) I can understand your excitement in your discovery of a method that works very well for you. It frustrates me that I have had so much difficulty in grasping how I can best assemble and unify my information that is scattered about in so many different databases that don't easily work with one another.

Well, I really hope you like it Jim, because you just wrote another thing that went in my epic quotes file. This was the best part in my opinion: "the search for the ideal PIM software is really subordinate to the search for the ideal method of processing information. (Of course better tools make new methods possible, and can lead us to those new methods.)"

One thing to keep in mind is that Cyborganize is meant to be like the operating system. It handles the bulk of the work, while the user customizes with preferred apps for any remaining special needs. So I'm not against the PIMs that aren't in the core system by any means.

Here is another possible reason for CRIMPing: retail therapy...

This especially works on the iPad. All too easy to buy and install stuff (especially as there is no such thing as trialling an app. One has to buy it to try it. Very evil system :)

In the enterprise world, the success of SAP as an Enterprise Resource Platform is due to the fact that --more than a software tool- SAP is a proven system of organising and monitoring operations. Huge investment has gone into developing that system, and SAP will work diligently to adjust it to any new customer.

In the personal information management world, such investments have been mostly fragmented. Rather than focusing on the knowledge worker, most money has gone into a 'consumer' approach, which usually aims for the lowest common denominator; as a result, the greatest success story is one of a toolbox (MS Office) whose applications are so basic they can be used for mostly anything, without really providing any kind of breakthrough. To get a perspective, a ruler might be useful whether you are designing a house or a skyscraper, but the complexity of the latter calls for tools that work at another level. A skyscraper is not designed one floor at a time, even though eventually the plans for every floor will be drawn out.

With SAP and the likes now recognising the potential of the SMB (Small and Medium Business) market, including SOHO business, I have hopes for the future. My only concern is whether they will at least consider the virtues of some of the best tools we talk about in this forum, as a starting point, or whether they will start from their own enterprise viewpoint and work their way down...

jimspoon wrote:

I'm realizing that that the search for the ideal PIM software is really
subordinate to the search for the ideal method of processing information. (Of course
better tools make new methods possible, and can lead us to those new methods.)

[...clip...]

It frustrates me that I have had so much difficulty in grasping how I can best assemble
and unify my information that is scattered about in so many different databases that
don't easily work with one another.

Very interesting what you said, Alexander.

The slightly paranoid side in me keeps questioning if the lack of more powerful (while still being intuitive, quick and fun ) tools for dealing and managing big amounts of data *in a PERSONAL/INDIVIDUAL* level isn't actually a deliberate omission by the big players in the tech/software world.

After all, the lack of market can't be used as an excuse if we consider that people don't know what they need/want until they actually get it.

If we consider the gaming industry, comparing the progress made in the last two decades, and compare it with the PIM software market in the same period of time, then the situation really deserves a small laugh.

Civilization -> Civ5
Grandview and Lotus Agenda -> ???

When a single tool (or coordinated set of tools) give me the power of working with my pool of data in the, at least, *most* ways I can imagine, while making it fun and mentally provoking in the process, then maybe I'll stop CRIMPing! (the preview of the Liquid Text projeect, mentioned earlier here, comes to mindl)

In a small answer, i CRIMP because i like learning, because I believe Knowledge is important, and that computers should help in the process of acquiring knowledge.

Salutations,

Paulo