Hi
We are a group of developers interested in producing feature-rich cross-platform note-taking application.
Out initial idea is that it would include many of the features of applications like MyBase, Surfulator but perhaps allow the flexible positioning of notes on a page like in BasketNotes or OneNote.

In addition to having standard note-taking functions (assigning notes in a tree-like structure) that is being able to capture entire or partial selections of web pages, and have the ability to add notes about the webclippings.

We envisage that the base version of the software will be open-source and free. A paid pro version will help pay for the high cost of developing the program.

Suggestions on the following would be very much appreciated:

- features you would like to see
- features you hope that we will AVOID :)
- practical considerations regarding building a robust application.

Carrot wrote:

Out initial idea is that it would include
many of the features of applications like MyBase, Surfulator but perhaps allow the
flexible positioning of notes on a page like in BasketNotes or OneNote.

In addition
to having standard note-taking functions (assigning notes in a tree-like
structure) that is being able to capture entire or partial selections of web pages,
and have the ability to add notes about the webclippings.

We envisage that the base
version of the software will be open-source and free. A paid pro version will help pay
for the high cost of developing the program.

Suggestions on the following would be
very much appreciated:

- features you would like to see

Since no one else has chimed in on this I will throw out a response. The applications that you cited above are a good start. All are generally positively reviewed.

I will add a few more considerations.

Most of us here very fondly remember Lotus Agenda and Grandview and like Ecco a great deal. All of these had one thing in common. It was extremely easy to apply custom characteristics, literally transforming any input into any type of item desired. For instance, an email could become an appointment with the click of a mouse button and a choice of date. Any "tag" or folder could be applied with a checkbox. Most of us associate this in modern applications with the use of "columns". Omnioutliner is a good example of a program which incorporates this and my understanding is that SQLNotes does so, too.

Another thing is that I don't *think* that any of the programs you cited have PIM functions. Perhaps this is beyond your vision but a calendar widget and a standard form for contacts is awfully handy to have.

One last consideration - the ability to access information on mobile phones is becoming increasingly important.

Tom S.

First of all, let me say that I find it very interesting that a programmer contacts this forum for advice prior to commencing their software's development. As far as I know this is the first time that such an approach has been taken. Mostly, developers appear in this forum when the core functionality has been produced; by then it is too late to suggest structural enhancements. So I consider this a great opportunity and I will happily take it. Find below a first round of suggestions:

- Development platform: Sometime ago I had written here that IMHO applications, if they are to compete in the contemporary environment, they will be soon expected to be (a) cross-platform, including mobile clients, and (b) web-aware, i.e. providing a web client / web backup or sync. I would suggest that you take a look at Nokia's new QT platform or other IDE that can build applications with such functionalities.

- Core concept: There are some excellent Windows-only or Apple-only applications that are not available for other platforms and are not expected to anytime soon; a cross platform outliner with similar functionalities could well become quite popular. My own favourites (in Windows) include Surfulater, which you mentioned, UltraRecall and InfoQube/SQL notes. The core concept in these programs is similar and very powerful: information items are database objects and can be organised both on a hierarchical tree and independently through tags. This allows the user a lot of flexibility on how to go about structuring their information. An important functionality here is clones or virtual copies of info items, so that one can can include them in various folders of the tree simultaneously.

- Business model: I am a strong of the 'freemium' approach and am a paying user/subscriber of several applications following such an approach. Be aware that there's a lot of competition and you'll have to offer something quite advantageous to expect a noteworthy income. This should be especially true in the Linux world, where users are rather spoilt. I would expect a cross-platform program like that to be very valuable in businees, where you could also sell support contracts.

- Interconnectivity: one of the most important deciding factors for me is the ability to easily get data in and out an application. For getting it in: grab from the web, paste in various formats (text, image, RTF/HTML), monitoring the clipboard For getting it out: XML export along with related stylesheets (web export), access to the database, CSV export, export tree structure as folder structure with info items as files etc.

I (and most others I imagine) could go on for ages with desired features, but ultimately you should define your own vision and develop your program's competitive advantages around that vision. What you will leave out is as important as what you'll include. For example: a powerful editing environment is very important to many users, but providing it may mean significant development resources. Instead, you could opt for directly editing your content through freely available external editors such as Open Office.

Within this context, I'd like to add a suggestion for a functionality that I am surprised I've yet to see, given that SQL lies at the heart of many such programs: the ability to directly publish selected content through popular php/mySQL CMS platforms. This could be a powerful competitive advantage, as it means that one doesn't need to use a web interface to re-organise already structured content. The closest I've seen to this is Evernote's Shared Notebooks and The Journal's Blog Publish feature.

That's it for the moment; wishing you beforehand all the best in your venture.

Alexander

May I add one other concept to Alexander's excellent list - portability. A note taking application must be able to run independently on portable devices such as external USB drives.

A question if I may: what is driving your development plans? Potential commercial opportunity, research project, personal "hobby" interest ..... etc What are you hoping to achieve? This would help in setting the context and then identifying possible features.

Thanks for asking in the first place.

Jack

Thanks everyone for your replies and suggestions.

Our idea is to make the application as open source as possible, in order to attract the trust and confidence of users.

Do you believe there is a need for this type of software? A market? An opportunity for us to do something good, make something good? (and not go broke :)

Our technical team (which I am not part of) will carefully examine OneNote and try to figure out if its features are difficult to implement. I used it intensively several years ago and liked it very much prior to my switch to Linux.

I am very impressed with InfoQube as well. (despite finding it quite difficult to learn) Do you think it would be better to go with:

- a more simple OneNote style application (I assume the way it stores data makes it accessible to the user is simpler than the InfoQube/ ECCO model,

- an Surfulator/ InfoQube/ ECCO model in which information items are database objects and can be organized both on a hierarchical tree and independently through tags. Users have a lot of flexibility regarding structuring their information.

Again, all suggestions will be appreciated. We don't really have a very strong commercial/ profit motive in making this software- we want to make a full featured open-source note-taker for Linux (as our main goal but also cross-platform) just don't want to go broke doing it.

If you want to enter the very crowded market of information managers, AND make it economically feasible, you're going to need to do more than emulate OneNote. You'll need to do something different. I can think of two paths you can take:

1. You can build a Windows version of GrandView, a great old DOS outliner that has never been duplicated in Windows. There's a little bit of information about GrandView here:

http://www.faughnan.com/more/

and here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1563/is_n6_v9/ai_10748021/

2. Create an index card model. That is, each record would be viewable in an index card, with a variety of meta data attached, as well. Subsets of these cards could be viewed in lists or on a virtual cork board, where they could be freely shuffled around.

Steve Z.

Hi.

I find the idea of a cross-plattform note-taking application appealing. Windows and Macintosh are a must for me, Linux would be nice.

Be warned, however: Macintosh users are very picky about the GUI. A considerable portion of the Mac users I know wouldn't touch a Java application (doesn't look Mac-like, is slow). To attract them, your app has to be a Cocoa app (or at least Carbon).

An example of an app that has complete Windows look and feel on a PC and Mac look and feel on a Mac is the German word processor Papyrus (http://www.rom-logicware.com and www.papyrus.de).

Do you think it would be better to go with:

- a more simple OneNote style application
- an Surfulator/ InfoQube/ ECCO model

Why either or? Make it simple to use AND flexible "under the hood". This way the software will appeal to power and to occasional users.

And do not try to make it a jack of all trades: If it is a note-taking application, there is no need for a calender or email integration. You might, however, consider opening your app for plugins/add-ins.

Franz

Carrot wrote:

We don't really
have a very strong commercial/ profit motive in making this software- we want to make a
full featured open-source note-taker for Linux (as our main goal but also
cross-platform) just don't want to go broke doing it.

I don't have any understanding of the Linux market, though I suspect it's tiny.

On Windows and Mac, you'll be entering a very crowded market. What will make your app stand out? (For example, in my mind at least, my Opal focuses on ease of use.) Cross-platform isn't enough, there are enough apps that do it. In other words, what is your marketing plan?

I wouldn't recommend starting a business to do outliner software. You can certainly make money, but for "we" (multiple developers) to live off is likely to be hard.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

If you want to enter the very crowded market of information managers, AND make it
economically feasible, you're going to need to do more than emulate OneNote. You'll
need to do something different. I can think of two paths you can take:

1. You can build
a Windows version of GrandView, a great old DOS outliner that has never been
duplicated in Windows. There's a little bit of information about GrandView
here:

http://www.faughnan.com/more/

and here:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1563/is_n6_v9/ai_10748021/

2.
Create an index card model. That is, each record would be viewable in an index card,
with a variety of meta data attached, as well. Subsets of these cards could be viewed in
lists or on a virtual cork board, where they could be freely shuffled around.

Steve
Z.

Allow me to support warmly Steve Z's first option. I would kill!! (read that "pay good money") for a program that would mirror Grandview or PCoutline. These programs would be attractive to academics if they included a cut-and-paste function, the ability to link to websites, import functions from other programs, etc. I still use the outliner for my lectures, brain storming, and storing information.

Jim G.

My advice is: ?Don?t do it?. Unless you have a vision of a new way doing cross-platform note-taking, and a source of significant finance.

Very sorry to be so negative and rain on your parade. From a selfish point of view it would be really handy to see a new cross-platform entrant to the note-taking application market, and even better if it satisfied numerous requirements which I could list but most of which are covered in the posts above.

However? as David says, the market is very crowded.

On Windows, there are numerous competitors. OneNote is the elephant in the room.

On the Mac, the field though much smaller is slightly more open, but some successful developers have been established in it for a long time with products with solid track records. And some of the most successful, at least in reputational terms, such as the developers of Journler and Mori, have recently got out of note-taking software. One has to ask ?Why??

Overall on those two platforms you?d be competing directly with EverNote. EverNote is not perfect, but when the web version launched it went in a relatively new direction with a unique-ish combination of features, it?s become a well-financed operation, development is proceeding apace and it?s on every major platform. Except Linux, of course, but there?ve been calls for a Linux version of EverNote, and you can be sure that if you looked like establishing a strong market position on Linux, EverNote would have the resources to be there before you (if it thought the effort was worthwhile).

Of course, none of your potential competitors is perfect by any stretch of the imagination. There?s huge scope for a lot of improvements. Steve Z. has listed two really good ones. But many of the existing products are good enough for the general market that EverNote, OneNote and others supply, and for that market, ?good enough? is enough.

We on this forum can see the flaws, gaps and imperfections in all those applications, but we are connoisseurs and afficionados, we aren?t necessarily going to come up with the breakthroughs or vision that will have the market knocking on your door, and our purchases alone aren?t going to stop your operation from going broke.

So, at least in creative and inventive terms you?d have to out-EverNote EverNote. And then you?d have to have long-term determination and financial staying-power too. Oh, and luck.

As I say, sorry to be so negative.

Hello!
Thanks to everyone for your comments. Our group will meet soon to discuss some of them

I have read many glowing reports about Grandview or PCoutline. Is there a way to still run this software so I can test it? I had trouble learning much about it. Reading how it works is not the same as trying it.

What did these applications offer that EccoPro does not offer? Or, better yet, what did they offer that InfoQube does not offer?

No need to apologize for seeming to sound negative. You are being realistic and if we were smart, we'd probably not go ahead with this project.
We are not going to try to compete with Evernote. That's impossible. Personally, I greatly dislike 'cloud' software and the idea of putting my data on someone else's server. There appear to be many smaller developers out there apparently satisfied with their smallish base of customers.

We have are mainly interested in making something for Linux that will also operate on other operating systems. And it will be open source -- a drawing point that tends to attract quite a bit of support. Unlike the big players, we're not in it for the money.

I'll greatly look forward to all suggestions and comments!

You can run Grandview and PCoutline in your favorite DOS emulator or virtual machine. Someone in this thread already posted a link to how to do this for Grandview. If you hunt around online, you can find both programs. IMHO only Grandview is worth looking at. PCoutline is primitive.

Grandview doesn't offer much over what ECCO offers. It was one of the major inspirations for ECCO. The only things of significance that were in GV but not ECCO were a view that allowed you to collapse your outline into a linear text (similar to switching from outline view in Microsoft Word to one of the writing views) and macro programming.

Also, since you're on Linux, you absolutely *MUST* take a look at "org-mode" for Emacs. Despite the innocuous name, org-mode is a serious piece of work. It has columnar and PIM features like ECCO and InfoQube along with a whole set of other features that you don't find in those programs. In some sense it is close to a hybrid between Ecco and OneNote, but without the graphical emphasis of the latter. I can't over-emphasize how good org-mode is (and how unfortunate that it's trapped within Emacs).

I also reiterate the comments of some other posters about the importance of mobile access. For this reason, you should take a look at structured wiki software like TWiki (don't confuse this with the simple "Tiddly Wiki"). The good structured wikis are essentially like OneNote but with better calendaring/PIM features and less good text editing features. Once you have a smartphone with a proper interface (and we all will within the next 2-3 years, if we don't have them now), you become reluctant to use PIM software that can't interact with your phone. I want to be able to snap a picture of something on the go and have it appear in my PIM system, and I want to be able to have all my travel documents that I stored on my computer available on my phone. As software, Evernote is quite primitive, but they do have this right.

-- Chris

Carrot wrote:

Hello!
Thanks to everyone for your comments. Our group will meet soon to discuss some
of them

I have read many glowing reports about Grandview or PCoutline. Is there a way
to still run this software so I can test it? I had trouble learning much about it.
Reading how it works is not the same as trying it.

What did these applications offer
that EccoPro does not offer? Or, better yet, what did they offer that InfoQube does not
offer?

No need to apologize for seeming to sound negative. You are being realistic
and if we were smart, we'd probably not go ahead with this project.
We are not going to
try to compete with Evernote. That's impossible. Personally, I greatly dislike
'cloud' software and the idea of putting my data on someone else's server. There
appear to be many smaller developers out there apparently satisfied with their
smallish base of customers.

We have are mainly interested in making something for
Linux that will also operate on other operating systems. And it will be open source -- a
drawing point that tends to attract quite a bit of support. Unlike the big players,
we're not in it for the money.

I'll greatly look forward to all suggestions and
comments!

I have to disagree a little with what Chris says. Grandview had some important features that EccoPro never did. First, it had a full-blown word processor. You could compose a lengthy document as part of any single node of the outline. And it provided a variety of ways to view this content, which, in my mind, is far superior to anything else I've seen since. Create a node, press the F5 key (I think that's the correct key), and you toggle into the word processing screen. The rest of the outline, including the node title, are gone and you can write focussing only on the content of that section. Hit F5 again and you're back into the outline. Various commands allow you to view the entire text associated with each node "in line" or only the first line of the text, or no text at all. In this way you can toggle between the big picture and the minute details. I have yet to find any other outliner that does this -- OminiOutliner has a pathetic version of inline text, but that's it. And that's no small feature, because it allows you to focus on a section at a time when you need to, but also allows you to see how one section flows into the next. And you didn't have to be in the word processor to edit the text. You could edit it in any view, so create a new transition sentence from one section to the next, and be sure it works.

Of course, GV had hoisting, folding and any other outlining functions you can name, because it was a powerful outliner.

It also had a tagging method -- called categories, but the same as tagging -- which Ecco does not (although I imagine one could emulate such a function with all the handy tools Ecco does have. And it made accessing these functions much easier than Ecco. (I'm a big fan of Ecco, so I don't say that lightly.)

I'd say it is well worth your effort to take a good long look at GV.

Steve Z.

You're right... I'm not sure how I forgot about hoisting. It is absolutely necessary for serious outlining (I use it all the time in OmniOutliner), and GV did have it. (Though Ecco would be able to simulate hoisting if you could hide context parents in notepad views...) I believe GV also had mark and gather.

-- Chris

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I have to disagree a little with what Chris says. Grandview had some important
features that EccoPro never did. First, it had a full-blown word processor. You could
compose a lengthy document as part of any single node of the outline. And it provided a
variety of ways to view this content, which, in my mind, is far superior to anything
else I've seen since. Create a node, press the F5 key (I think that's the correct key),
and you toggle into the word processing screen. The rest of the outline, including the
node title, are gone and you can write focussing only on the content of that section.
Hit F5 again and you're back into the outline. Various commands allow you to view the
entire text associated with each node "in line" or only the first line of the text, or no
text at all. In this way you can toggle between the big picture and the minute details. I
have yet to find any other outliner that does this -- OminiOutliner has a pathetic
version of inline text, but that's it. And that's no small feature, because it allows
you to focus on a section at a time when you need to, but also allows you to see how one
section flows into the next. And you didn't have to be in the word processor to edit the
text. You could edit it in any view, so create a new transition sentence from one
section to the next, and be sure it works.

Of course, GV had hoisting, folding and any
other outlining functions you can name, because it was a powerful outliner.

It also
had a tagging method -- called categories, but the same as tagging -- which Ecco does
not (although I imagine one could emulate such a function with all the handy tools Ecco
does have. And it made accessing these functions much easier than Ecco. (I'm a big fan
of Ecco, so I don't say that lightly.)

I'd say it is well worth your effort to take a
good long look at GV.

Steve Z.

Steve,

I couldn't agree more about GV as an exemplar of genuine outlining. The problem - especially in Windows - is that there are all too many limited look-alike note-making programs (misleadingly calling themselves "outliners"), made from the same bolted together components, but few examples of really good single-pane outliners, let alone full-scale writing environments like GV's.

Note-making and single-pane outlining lie at the core of non-fiction and fiction writing, yet there is nothing readily available in Windows to illustrate what can be achieved in terms of the outlining component:

Inspiration - limited and clunky
Notemap - elegant but limited and buggy
PocketThinker - promising but no longer around
Word - limited outlining, and embedded within an unappealing word-processor
Brainstorm - a good start but needs its aerial view to be directly editable
Maxthink for Windows - awkward to use
Ecco - pretty, but limited
OneNote - clunky
InfoQube; and Zoot 6 - yet to be explored properly.

Of course these are just my personal views based on my purchases over the years. And what it all boils down to is that in the end I have always had to go back to GV in order to get any decent work done. As many of us have commented, it certainly would be nice to have a Treeview/Keynote/MyInfo type of note-taking program that provided a GV-style fully-featured single-pane outliner as an option for its right-hand editing pane (with further options for plain text, rtf, and html editing as required). But as always the "easy" part is the note-taking program; the hard part is the single-pane outlining component - which is why it is rarely attempted, and never done properly.

Given the apparently limited market for such "writing environments" on the Windows platform, maybe the only route is the open source one. But I have seen little evidence of promising developments in that sector either.

Derek

Hi,
I know it's been a while since this has been discussed but I seriously need a good outliner for linux. I use omnioutliner on Mac and the lack of a good replacement is one of the few things that keep Linux from being my main work computer. A longstanding issue with OpenOffice is the lack of an outline view (http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 the ability to export to .odt would certainly be welcome for OO users. Hope you'll post back and keep us updated with how things are progressing.
Thanks,
-Scott

Scott,

Have you tried NoteCase Pro? http://www.virtual-sky.com/index.php
I can't compare it to OmniOutliner as I've never used it, but it's powerful and supported by a very capable developer who's open to suggestions and spurts out updates every few weeks.

Another cross-platform program I would definitely suggest is http://www.treesheets.com/

Alexander

Thanks Alexander,
Yes, I have used Notecase for keeping notes. I tried tree sheets and it crashed before I could give it a real try - but it looks to be more of a note-taker than a true outliner. I'm looking for a single-pane or intrinsic outliner that can format (bold, italic) text. Being able to hoist and have multiple columns would be nice too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliners#Layout I've also tried: Basket, tkoutliner, java outline editor, jreepad, tuxcards, kjots, keepnote, mindraider, treeline and vimoutliner.

If you're on Linux, you should definitely also try "org-mode". Single-pane, simple formatting (bold and italic, a few more, plus full formatting on export), hoisting, multiple columns (in subareas of outlines!), and a large number of other features. It now also has an iPhone application for mobile access to your outlines.

-- Chris

Scott Sealy wrote:

Thanks Alexander,
Yes, I have used Notecase for keeping notes. I tried tree sheets
and it crashed before I could give it a real try - but it looks to be more of a note-taker
than a true outliner. I'm looking for a single-pane or intrinsic outliner that can
format (bold, italic) text. Being able to hoist and have multiple columns would be
nice too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliners#Layout I've also tried:
Basket, tkoutliner, java outline editor, jreepad, tuxcards, kjots, keepnote,
mindraider, treeline and vimoutliner.

If you're on Linux, you should definitely also try "org-mode". Single-pane, simple formatting (bold and italic, a few more, plus full formatting on export), hoisting, multiple columns (in subareas of outlines!), and a large number of other features. It now also has an iPhone application for mobile access to your outlines.

-- Chris

Scott Sealy wrote:

Thanks Alexander,
Yes, I have used Notecase for keeping notes. I tried tree sheets
and it crashed before I could give it a real try - but it looks to be more of a note-taker
than a true outliner. I'm looking for a single-pane or intrinsic outliner that can
format (bold, italic) text. Being able to hoist and have multiple columns would be
nice too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliners#Layout I've also tried:
Basket, tkoutliner, java outline editor, jreepad, tuxcards, kjots, keepnote,
mindraider, treeline and vimoutliner.

Chris: Thanks for the heads up with "org-mode". I though I would never find an acceptable outliner for Ubuntu. I've been getting acquainted with org-mode this afternoon writing lesson plans. gB

Carrot wrote:

Hi
We are a group of developers interested in producing feature-rich
cross-platform note-taking application.

I wonder whether this project ever took off...

Oh, wow ... it wasn't until the last message that I realized that this was such an old thread. Great thread, though ... glad I read through it.