I am still on my quest for the perfecct outliner (I know, doesn't exist cause I keep changing what I need). What I'd love is Scrivener, but for windows. I am stuck using WinXP, and am searching for an outliner to structure/organize thoughts and writing.
I prefer single pane outliners, but Scrivener's "cork board" and outline node synopsis is amazing. Are there any window outliners with this synopsis feature?

I mainly use Inspiration (in outline mode), and it works, just not perfectly. The ability to organize/re-organize using Scrivener's cork board is powerful. Most of my writing has "chapters" with an overview/summary and title in them. In Scrivener, the synopsis serves as my overview/summary so life is good. Except I'm stuck on Windows. (No, I can't buy a mac right now.)

Pagefour http://www.softwareforwriting.com/ is recommended (or something to that extent) by Scrivener author for Windows users.
Writers Cafe has cork board, but I tested it so long ago I don't remember anymore anything else.

forgot the link http://www.writerscafe.co.uk/

Hi.

Pagefour is the Windows application that comes closest to Scrivener. It is a full-featured writing application including a "repetition checker" (which is not available in Scrivener).

Storylines is part of Writer's Cafe and is mainly an organizer using the corkboard metaphore. It is not the place where you write, it is mainly useful for structuring your manuscript and exporting the outline to a word processor. But for that, Storylines is very useful. It even allows you to keep several story lines organized - something you cannot do visually in Scrivener.

Franz

If the cork board is the most important feature you are looking for, I think you're mostly out of luck in the PC world, with the possible exception of the Writer's Cafe/Storylines option.

As for single-pane outliners, I'm afraid Inspiration is the best choice (perhaps the only still-supported choice).

If you broaden your definition some, however, there are still some interesting choices, in addition to PageFour:

- Liquid Story Binder is chock full of features (perhaps too many). http://www.blackobelisksoftware.com/

- SuperNoteCard is a nice index card metaphor with modest outlining. http://www.mindola.com/

- Writer's Blocks hasn't been updated in a few years, but also uses an index card metaphor. http://www.writersblocks.com/index.htm

- Whizfolders has a lot of nice features for writers. http://www.whizfolders.com/

- As mentioned a few days ago, The Journal is a strong writing program. http://www.davidrm.com/

And there are others, but these are the ones that first come to mind for me.

Steve Z.

DaXiong wrote:

I am still on my quest for the perfecct outliner (I know, doesn't exist cause I keep
changing what I need). What I'd love is Scrivener, but for windows.

You and many, many others. As I mentioned in the recent thread about PageFour (http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/1064/0/new-developments-with-pagefour I recently switched from PageFour to The Journal.

I had an exchange of emails with The Journal's developer in which I suggested that he should look at Scrivener with a view to developing a similar outliner feature for The Journal. He was enthusiastic, and said he would try to get something out by the summer. The Journal is a polished program, so if he does attempt to produce a Scrivener-style outliner, it should be worth waiting for...

I appreciate the feedback. Page Four really doesn't have what I'm looking for, and development really hasn't progressed in some time (I am aware of a minor bug-fix update). I use PageFour from time to time, but it just doesn't have the outlining support I need.

I've looked at the Journal in the past, and actually downloaded again seeing the recent comments about contacting the developer and possibility of some Scrivener-like additions. I'm waiting ... and hoping.

Overnight, I've had an exchange with someone who's trying to merge LyX (www.lyx.org) with Scrivener. You can read about his idea here (http://www.oak-tree.us/blog/index.php/2009/03/04/perfect-tool He says the LyX people are supportive, and he's got a prototype working. (Note: Yeah, I volunteered to beta test it). I'll keep you informed.

The people who frequent Outliner Software are great. If I were a developer, I'd foot the bill for the site, and give you all free copies of my programs, just for all the great ideas you provide and how you help each other.

DaXiong wrote:

Overnight, I've had an
exchange with someone who's trying to merge LyX (www.lyx.org) with Scrivener. You
can read about his idea here
(http://www.oak-tree.us/blog/index.php/2009/03/04/perfect-tool He says
the LyX people are supportive, and he's got a prototype working. (Note: Yeah, I
volunteered to beta test it). I'll keep you informed.

This sounds nice. If it ever turned out to be more than a pipe dream, I'd love to try it - if for no other reason than it would be cross-platform.

Tom S.

I previously looked at a bunch of the tools other people had mentioned (for PC). My anticipated usage was fiction writing, so I was looking for features that would be useful in that endeavor. Eventually I settled on SuperNoteCard for organization and yWriter for composition. There are some areas of feature overlap between them, which is a shame, because it makes it less than a totally elegant partnership. But I think both programs deserve strong consideration. Both offer a strong dose of "design simplicity," which was lacking the other programs I tried, several of which seemed to be tripping over themselves trying to do everything. Good luck. -- Dave

Extending LyX is a nice idea, but I'm not sure why he doesn't just use LaTeX markup for crossreferences, styles, etc. directly in Scrivener? (Footnotes and marginalia are natively supported in Scrivener.) There's an active community of LaTeX/Scrivener users who do this, and in fact a subforum on that topic hosted on the Scrivener site.

For those who find LaTeX frightening, you can also use an intermediate level (less imposing and more accessible) markup in Scrivener called Markdown that can be exported to LaTeX.

-- Chris

DaXiong wrote:

Overnight, I've had an
exchange with someone who's trying to merge LyX (www.lyx.org) with Scrivener. You
can read about his idea here
(http://www.oak-tree.us/blog/index.php/2009/03/04/perfect-tool He says
the LyX people are supportive, and he's got a prototype working. (Note: Yeah, I
volunteered to beta test it). I'll keep you informed.

DaXiong:
I agree. These fellows are tops and they know their stuff. gB

DaXiong wrote:

I prefer single pane outliners, but Scrivener's "cork board" and outline
node synopsis is amazing. Are there any window outliners with this synopsis feature?

No Scrivener for Windows, I'm afraid.
However, if you fancy a corkboard, here are three "virtual corkboard" suggestions:

1. SuperNoteCard, already mentioned in this thread
2. NoteZilla - Has a Notes Browser with memoboards and sub-memoboards, and the most elegant virtual stickies around: http://www.conceptworld.com/NoteZilla/
3. Post-It Digital Notes - has tabbed memoboards http://www.3m.com/us/office/postit/digital/digital_notes_features.html

Here's an example of writer Rachel Vincent using virtual post-its: http://urbanfantasy.blogspot.com/2008/08/virtual-post-its.html
And yet another example: http://jenhayley.com/2008/08/30/virtual-plotting-board/

I use NoteZilla or SuperNoteCard.
Tried Post-It digital Notes, was cute, but I prefer NoteZilla.

Have fun

Michal

We have just started the Writing Outliner project at http://writingoutliner.com

It's a outliner software designed for writing long documents such as books or a series of related documents such as columns, it's developed as a Word addin which seamlessly integrates with Microsoft Word?.

And of course, the ideas are mainly inspired by Scrivener, kudos to Keith :)

And then there's always the real thing: http://www.will-self.com/writing-room/

H

I wish you well with the project. I am sorry it is tied to Word. Unless I absolutely have to I do not used Word. It'd be good to give people the choice of Word or OpenOffice.

Daly

Edwin wrote:

We have just started the Writing Outliner project at
http://writingoutliner.com

It's a outliner software designed for writing long
documents such as books or a series of related documents such as columns, it's
developed as a Word addin which seamlessly integrates with Microsoft Word?.

And of
course, the ideas are mainly inspired by Scrivener, kudos to Keith :)

Daly de Gagne wrote:

I wish you well with the project. I am sorry it is tied to Word. Unless I absolutely have
to I do not used Word. It'd be good to give people the choice of Word or
OpenOffice.

Daly

The real problem with writing long works in Word is that working with multiple documents (say, one .doc file for each chapter) is a clumsy affair without add-ins. Managing multiple documents one of the main planned features of Edwin's planned add-in.

The problem he faces is that many people using Word in this way already use the fine (and free) program Chapter by Chapter (http://pagesperso-orange.fr/sebastien.berthet/cbc/ which in my experience is very stable and does what it claims to do. The other planned features for Writing Outliner don't, on the face of it, look compelling enough to draw people away from the free option. But no doubt I'll test Writing Outliner when it appears.

It isn't just clumsiness that has deterred long-form writers from using Word.

There used to be several blogs and sites offering advice on what functions to strip out of Word or leave unused before committing important long-form material to it. Some of these functions as I recall concerned its outlining and document map features, which were of course designed to make writing longer documents easier. There existed a serious fear of instability once it contained tens of thousands of words. I experienced this instability myself - Word 2000 was definitely flawed, but I can't remember whether for me or more generally the problems also involved Word versions as recent as 2003, and I don't know whether the causes have since been addressed in 2007.

If not, it's hard to see how an add-in can provide a remedy.

H

Yes, I had the same experience myself using Word for (very) long documents. I came close to disaster once when I was up against a short deadline. Bizarrely, I saved the day by copying the file from Word for Windows to Word on the Mac, which proved much more stable with long documents. That was many years ago (Word 2000, I think). But I never use Word for long documents now.

But agents/publishers do often request Word files, so add-ins can help. The program I mentioned above, Chapter by Chapter, just makes it very easy to manage "projects" -- effectively a set of short Word documents.

So typically, if writing a novel, you would have a file for each chapter, and they would be collected into a project in Chapter by Chapter, perhaps split into sections/acts/however you work.

Chapter by Chapter just makes it easy to manage, switch between, organise and merge the Word files, keep running word counts etc.

For those not tied to Word, programs like PageFour (http://www.softwareforwriting.com/ achieve the same thing in a single interface.

Hi Daly,

Thank you very much :). Unfortunately, OpenOffice does not provide much API as Word does

Daly de Gagne wrote:

I wish you well with the project. I am sorry it is tied to Word. Unless I absolutely have
to I do not used Word. It'd be good to give people the choice of Word or
OpenOffice.

Daly

Edwin wrote:
>We have just started the Writing Outliner
project at
>http://writingoutliner.com
>
>It's a outliner software designed
for writing long
>documents such as books or a series of related documents such as
columns, it's
>developed as a Word addin which seamlessly integrates with
Microsoft Word?.
>
>And of
>course, the ideas are mainly inspired by Scrivener,
kudos to Keith :)
>

Hi John,

Thank you for the comment and the link to CBC, I didn't know it before. I downloaded it and found that it's a nice tool as a freeware, but Writing Outliner will be providing more features for writing writers, it's integrated into, for example, instant full text search through all documents, tagging, viewing images/pdf files right inside Word, true outlining functionality (not just using a tree-view to manage documents), and it's developed as a really add-in so it will be integrated more deeply into Microsoft Word.

And at the end, it will be providing mind mapping features by tightly integrating with MindVisualizer.


Edwin Yip
All-in-one writing software for writers
http://WritingOutliner.com

JohnK wrote:

Daly de Gagne wrote:
>I wish you well with the project. I am sorry it is tied to Word.
Unless I absolutely have
>to I do not used Word. It'd be good to give people the choice
of Word or
>OpenOffice.
>
>Daly

The real problem with writing long works in Word
is that working with multiple documents (say, one .doc file for each chapter) is a
clumsy affair without add-ins. Managing multiple documents one of the main planned
features of Edwin's planned add-in.

The problem he faces is that many people using
Word in this way already use the fine (and free) program Chapter by Chapter
(http://pagesperso-orange.fr/sebastien.berthet/cbc/ which in my experience
is very stable and does what it claims to do. The other planned features for Writing
Outliner don't, on the face of it, look compelling enough to draw people away from the
free option. But no doubt I'll test Writing Outliner when it appears.

Hi Hugh,

Actually, Writing Outliner can be (at least partially) a remedy for the instability of Word, since Writing Outliner will save backups for each document, you can easily go back to any previous revision.

Edwin Yip
All-in-one writing software for writers
http://WritingOutliner.com

Hugh wrote:

It isn't just clumsiness that has deterred long-form writers from using
Word.

There used to be several blogs and sites offering advice on what functions to
strip out of Word or leave unused before committing important long-form material to
it. Some of these functions as I recall concerned its outlining and document map
features, which were of course designed to make writing longer documents easier.
There existed a serious fear of instability once it contained tens of thousands of
words. I experienced this instability myself - Word 2000 was definitely flawed, but I
can't remember whether for me or more generally the problems also involved Word
versions as recent as 2003, and I don't know whether the causes have since been
addressed in 2007.

If not, it's hard to see how an add-in can provide a remedy.

H

Hi John,

Your reply and the Hugh's reply above about the instability of Word has affected the development of Writing Outliner :) Saving each revision of the document was a feature that's being considered, but now it's a planned feature :) Thank you all for the comments.

---
Edwin Yip
All-in-one writing software for writers
http://WritingOutliner.com

JohnK wrote:

Yes, I had the same experience myself using Word for (very) long documents. I came
close to disaster once when I was up against a short deadline. Bizarrely, I saved the
day by copying the file from Word for Windows to Word on the Mac, which proved much more
stable with long documents. That was many years ago (Word 2000, I think). But I never
use Word for long documents now.

But agents/publishers do often request Word
files, so add-ins can help. The program I mentioned above, Chapter by Chapter, just
makes it very easy to manage "projects" -- effectively a set of short Word
documents.

So typically, if writing a novel, you would have a file for each chapter,
and they would be collected into a project in Chapter by Chapter, perhaps split into
sections/acts/however you work.

Chapter by Chapter just makes it easy to manage,
switch between, organise and merge the Word files, keep running word counts
etc.

For those not tied to Word, programs like PageFour
(http://www.softwareforwriting.com/ achieve the same thing in a single
interface.

Hello!

Edwin, I'm the author of CbC and I'm glad you appreciate it.
What your're developing seems very different to me, although some overlaps may blur those differences.
CbC is Word with a project treeview (? la Visual Studio, habit that comes from the job...). John has perfectly summarized what it does and how it should be seen as a tool.

I just wish to add here that although CbC is a freeware, there is a *huge* development effort in it (the first release was in 2001). I use it everyday, and dozens of other writers have sent me regular emails to correct and improve it over the years. This is why I think too it's now pretty stable.

On the other hand, CbC will never evolve to a data organization tool, with mind mapping, data mining, instant full text search, and all those great features you are developing. From my point of view, these features are mainly pre-writing stuffs: they are extremely useful to organize the author's "universe" and pull coherent characters and a nicely packaged plot out of the chaos. When it comes to the actual writing of the novel draft, doing mindmaps again sounds to me like adding milk in a cooked pastry. Maybe that's just my way to work... I know there are two big churches for writing methods: 1) write a plan and follow that plan (Elisabeth Georges) and 2) write as it comes and that plan will emerge (Stephen King).
From what I've understand of your software, I would say that CbC may be for writers of church 1, and your software for writers of church 2...

Anyway, I can't wait trying your software! Good luck with your developments ! Once your software is released, I will add a link on the CbC homepage.
Kind regards,

S?bastien

Hello Sebastien,

Chapter by Chapter is neat and does what it's intended to, it's really a good tool :)

I'm glad you jump in this discussion, actually I really appreciate insightful inputs from really writers like you, because I myself am not a writer although I used to write long documents such as technical manuals :)

I have a little different view on the planed features of Writing Outliner that you think are pre-writing stuff, I think these features should be helpful for the whole writing process, for example, with full-text search, in pre-writing stage you can search your research materials; in the writing process you can search through all documents in the writing project to check consistency, or analyzing characters, POV, etc. The developer of Scrivener Keith has a very good idea behind Scrivener: Provides features to help writers but does not bring in any limits in terms of the way the writers want to write, I think that is a brilliant and I should follow it :) So I think Writing Outliner is not only for church 1 or 2 you mentioned, but for both churches :) and I actually don't see CbC is for writers of church 1 only.

Thank you again for you comments, and I look forward to further contact with you :)

Hello Edwin,

Thank you very much for your words about CbC.

I did not want to say that Scrivener or Writing Outliner can be restrictive in some way. The fact is that there are merely two kinds of writers: those who have a plan and those who don't. That said, this is not that binary, because there are part of a story that can still be fuzzy when I jump into the first draft. I mean there is a grey area between the "got plan" and "no plan" way...

On the other hand, what's sure about writing tools is that they still don't cover all the writing process. Here is a topic where I posted my "most wanted feature" in that eternal quest of the perfect outliner:
http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/148
Maybe Writing Outliner can do that?

Again, I will be happy to test your software. I will tell you if I can use it efficiently in my writing process. Please contact me directly when you can make it available.
Kind regards,

Sebastien