I just learned about Clover, a new note-taking, info-management app that combines the features of a number of other apps.

https://cloverapp.com

You can create whiteboards (called Surfaces) as well as documents. It has bidirectional linking to both documents and surfaces. It's implementation of Daily Notes appears unique. Tasks can be embedded in any document and assigned a date... which then automatically shows up on that date.

It's still in beta, I believe, but in my quick look at it I am impressed.

Steve

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I just learned about Clover, a new note-taking, info-management app that
combines the features of a number of other apps.

https://cloverapp.com

You can create whiteboards (called Surfaces) as well as documents. It
has bidirectional linking to both documents and surfaces. It's
implementation of Daily Notes appears unique. Tasks can be embedded in
any document and assigned a date... which then automatically shows up on
that date.

It's still in beta, I believe, but in my quick look at it I am
impressed.

Steve

Thanks for mentioning this one, Steve. It looks interesting on first blush. I'll need to look at it in depth when I get a chance.

--Ken

I've been using Clover all day and I have to say that I am very impressed. This app seems to have hit a sweet spot for me. It's still in beta, so there are a few small things, but I expect them to be addressed sooner or later. Very hopeful.

Steve

Thanks for posting this. Very promising start. A bit reminiscent of OneNote. I would say it needs folding/collapsing of bullets to be an outlining contender.

It does look good, but until it enable importing from Roam and/or Obsidian, I can't see giving it too much of a workout.

Don't know if anyone has read their privacy policy? That alone will stop me signing up. They seem to be moving heavily in the direction of selling your data for advertising and are collecting every single piece of information they can about you and you device and are already declaring that if they sell the company they have a right to sell your data.

Will I be using them? In one word: No.

Not sure I can look at their entire web site without having an epileptic seizure.

Not sure I can look at their entire web site without having an epileptic seizure.

Not sure I can look at their entire web site without having an epileptic seizure.

Other than it being (literally) a shiny new thing, I don't see how it offers anything I can't already get from tried-and-tested OneNote and Milanote. I'm increasingly reluctant to jump onto whatever new wagon rolls into town. And I really dislike the "concept" websites - such as Clover's - that offer few if any screenshots but lots of razzle dazzle. Just show me what it looks like and how it works.

Their FAQ states "We do not track any personally identifiable information. Additionally we do not sell or share user data with third parties." And then their privacy policy tells all the ways they do track and share personal information. They don't need to track anything, just like I don't need to use their software.

I agree that the inconsistencies between what the developers categorically say on the website and what is spelled out in the privacy policy are troubling. I reached out to the Clover team with my concerns. I got an almost immediate response from the primary developer (Tom) and was told that their policy is what they say in the FAQ:

"We do not track any personally identifiable information. Additionally we do not sell or share user data with third parties.

"We do track anonymous application usage data (such as feature usage) to help inform our product direction and roadmap. We also track application errors which may include user information such as page titles and user names."

The privacy policy, he said, is boiler plate from their lawyers.

Small developers like this are going to have these kinds of issues. They rely on their lawyers to handle this stuff and trust that it is just a formality. It is good to let them know that these details matter to potential users. Tom thanked me for bringing this to his attention and said he is going to confer with the lawyer to fix the inconsistencies. Nevertheless, I suspect their won't be too much, if any, change in the privacy policy as any investors in the company will want their asses covered.

Personally, I am going to trust the developer's word. Clover has real potential to be a game-changer for me. Of course, I am in no way trying to convince anyone else to trust them.

Steve

Steve,

Have you started using it from scratch, or have you cobbled together a way to get existing notes from another app?

I have been using it from scratch. To be honest, my notes are scattered over so many apps that an import feature wouldn't do me a lot of good, but that is currently a missing feature, as is export.

There are other missing features... such as you can't yet drag and drop a PDF into a doc.

This is the problem with beta releases. It's a bit like getting a steak grilled on just one side. It looks and smells like a steak... gets your appetite going, but then you turn it over and realize its still just a slab of beef. But it is raw meat for CRIMPers like me.

Steve


exatty95 wrote:

Steve,

Have you started using it from scratch, or have you cobbled together a
way to get existing notes from another app?

That is one thing I would never do. The bottom line is their policy, not their word. Plus, if you look at the actual wording in their policy it is clear they are looking to datamine to sell adverts. Why does a company telling me they are interested in helping me create, organise and process my thoughts, need to know my network service provider, phone number, what website I'm coming from and what website I'm going to after I leave their app? There's also the troubling statement that if they sell the company they have the right to sell your data.

I used to be keen on supporting startups and the like, but in the last 10 years the number that have sold out to big conglomerates has stopped me supporting. I sometimes wonder if they create a product, make it a big hit and then sell it and retire.

There's also no information on who's running CloverApp. There is no "about" page, no address, no mention of GDPR nor where your data is stored, nor if it's encrypted...I could go on.

My most valued asset is my data. There is no way it is being copied onto a server who-knows-where and entrusted to people who don't identify themselves.

I would really urge caution. If Cloverapp is genuine, they will address these issues (which they should have done at startup). Transparency is paramount.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

Personally, I am going to trust the developer's word. Clover has real
potential to be a game-changer for me. Of course, I am in no way trying
to convince anyone else to trust them.

Steve

Regarding where the data is stored, they say this in their FAQ:

"Your data is secure. Clover uses Google Firebase to store all user data which is encrypted both at rest and in transit using HTTPS. For more information on how we store and secure your data please refer to the Google Firebase Privacy and Security page."

Admittedly, the website isn't very informational about the company, but if you join the Slack Community you'll see they are four guys.

Frankly, I'm not sure what they are going to learn about me that Google hasn't already found out.

Steve



Simon wrote:

That is one thing I would never do. The bottom line is their policy, not
their word. Plus, if you look at the actual wording in their policy it
is clear they are looking to datamine to sell adverts. Why does a
company telling me they are interested in helping me create, organise
and process my thoughts, need to know my network service provider, phone
number, what website I'm coming from and what website I'm going to after
I leave their app? There's also the troubling statement that if they
sell the company they have the right to sell your data.

I used to be keen on supporting startups and the like, but in the last
10 years the number that have sold out to big conglomerates has stopped
me supporting. I sometimes wonder if they create a product, make it a
big hit and then sell it and retire.

There's also no information on who's running CloverApp. There is no
"about" page, no address, no mention of GDPR nor where your data is
stored, nor if it's encrypted...I could go on.

My most valued asset is my data. There is no way it is being copied onto
a server who-knows-where and entrusted to people who don't identify
themselves.

I would really urge caution. If Cloverapp is genuine, they will address
these issues (which they should have done at startup). Transparency is
paramount.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
>Personally, I am going to trust the developer's word. Clover has real
>potential to be a game-changer for me. Of course, I am in no way trying
>to convince anyone else to trust them.
>
>Steve

Simon wrote:

I leave their app? There's also the troubling statement that if they
sell the company they have the right to sell your data.

Pretty sure this is mentioned so they can just transfer all current users to the new company. Nobody pays lots of money for the software, if you go big you get payed for bringing your customers. Looks like too many people think they can become the next Evernote.

And lets face it, the business model nowadays is for any startup to get sold after an acceptable time span, not to establish a lifetime business.

Lothar Scholz wrote:

Looks like too many people think they can become the next Evernote.

Clover does not seem like it's trying to take Evernote's mantle. With backlinks, infinite canvas, storyboarding and sketching it's a different type of app.

Few developers want to be in Evernote's shoes and have to compete with free OneNote.

@Stephen Zeoli,

Do you continue to use and like Clover?

I didn't continue using Clover, but to be honest I don't recall exactly why. One possible reason is the price is a little steep compared to other options... though it wouldn't be if I thought Clover the best option. I also think I decided that I didn't need the whiteboard feature... or at least not as it was then functional. It may have gotten better since, but the Clover website fails to list changes, so you can't learn what's new.


Dee wrote:

@Stephen Zeoli,

Do you continue to use and like Clover?

Hi Stephen,

Thanks very much for your feedback. :)

I asked because Clover looks very promising to me, and it would great to get feedback from a regular user of the software.

the Clover website fails to list changes, so you can’t learn what’s new

I agree, it would be nice to see a change log and roadmap, as well as more info about the team, etc.

I haven't even signed up to try the app yet, but in case you or others are interested, here are some resources I found helpful while researching it:

The BETA version of Clover was released in July 2021 (tables and Android support are not yet available but still planned):
https://www.producthunt.com/products/clover-4#clover-6

Version 1 of Clover was released in Jan 2022, and received many glowing reviews:
https://www.producthunt.com/products/clover-3#clover-v1

Enhancements included:
- iOS app
- Folders and labels (tags)
- Integration with Google Calendar
- Attach a note to a calendar event
- Nest blocks to create hierarchies, create toggle sections, and add subtasks
- Quick Prompt
- UI redesign
- Markdown import/export

An update in Mar 2022 introduced a new Tasks View:
https://twitter.com/cloverappco/status/1503730807222980612

An update in May 2022 included custom templates, sticky notes, file uploads and previews, image lightboxes, color swatches, and LaTeX:
https://twitter.com/cloverappco/status/1521849771836719106

The Clover Help Center provides a very nice overview of the features:
https://help.cloverapp.com

They also have a YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnsVrN0-llvEsm990lDOtLg/videos

If you think Clover is a good choice, I have no desire to dissuade you. I will say that if you're still looking for an app that does a lot of what Clover does, I would also look at Organizedly:

https://www.organized.ly/

The two apps are very similar.I should hasten to say that I do not use Organizedly either, but I've been more intrigued by its development.

Steve

Dee wrote:

Hi Stephen,

Thanks very much for your feedback. :)

I asked because Clover looks very promising to me, and it would great to
get feedback from a regular user of the software.

> the Clover website fails to list changes, so you can’t learn
what’s new

I agree, it would be nice to see a change log and roadmap, as well as
more info about the team, etc.

I haven't even signed up to try the app yet, but in case you or others
are interested, here are some resources I found helpful while
researching it:

The BETA version of Clover was released in July 2021 (tables and Android
support are not yet available but still planned):
https://www.producthunt.com/products/clover-4#clover-6

Version 1 of Clover was released in Jan 2022, and received many glowing
reviews:
https://www.producthunt.com/products/clover-3#clover-v1

Enhancements included:
- iOS app
- Folders and labels (tags)
- Integration with Google Calendar
- Attach a note to a calendar event
- Nest blocks to create hierarchies, create toggle sections, and add
subtasks
- Quick Prompt
- UI redesign
- Markdown import/export

An update in Mar 2022 introduced a new Tasks View:
https://twitter.com/cloverappco/status/1503730807222980612

An update in May 2022 included custom templates, sticky notes, file
uploads and previews, image lightboxes, color swatches, and LaTeX:
https://twitter.com/cloverappco/status/1521849771836719106

The Clover Help Center provides a very nice overview of the features:
https://help.cloverapp.com

They also have a YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnsVrN0-llvEsm990lDOtLg/videos

Not sure if any of these will provide you with what you want, but I have been trying out xTiles, Milanote and Walling recently and each has their own strengths. I initially did not warm up to the whiteboard meets Notion-like app concept, but all three of these changed my mind, at least with respect to researching and gathering information on discrete topics. Worth a look if you have not seen them.

--Ken

Thanks Stephen and Ken for those suggestions.

What I am really looking for is something that combines knowledge and task management with *drawing*. Built-in mindmapping and diagramming would be a nice addition.

I really like that Clover is block-based — i.e. individual bullets or sentences can be referenced / embedded / transcluded in other locations.

However when I tried Clover, both on Chrome and using the Windows desktop app, I found drawing to be so laggy as to be virtually unusable. By comparison, drawing in Microsoft OneNote is delightful.

I welcome any other suggestions. :)

Looks like Clover is closing down and the staff are joining Figma - https://cloverapp.com/ .

--Ken