One of the first things I now do when someone mentions a new knowledge management app is to look at how it handles task management. A simple checklist is simply not enough for me. At the very least I want to be able to (a) schedule due dates, and (b) have an overview of uncompleted tasks across different notes, filtered by tags.

Right now Roam Research, Obsidian (supposedly, although I haven't fully tested it), NotePlan, and HyperNotes all can do this. I'm sure there are others as well, but these are the ones I'm most familiar with.

There are some features that Todoist can do that Roam Research can't yet handle (at least not well, or easily) like repeating tasks, but I find the benefit of having my tasks and notes tightly integrated outweighs any benefits from having a dedicated task manager. But it is also not enough to simply add checklists to a knowledge manager without adding at least some features to manage scheduling or looking at uncompleted tasks across all notes in the database. I hope we will see more and more apps working on such integration from the beginning, and not just as an afterthought.

My productivity comes from time-blocking, and putting tasks on my calendar. I don't want to have to view two or more incompatible calendars to see my events and tasks, and I don't want to use an app which sends tasks to my calendar but cannot reflect back subsequent task changes made in the calendar. Finally, there are so many excellent calendar apps that are better than any I've seen inside any task app, so I don't want to be forced to use a task manager's calendar even if it can subscribe and sync to my Google calendars. And I heavily rely on repeating tasks - weekly, monthly, yearly, 'every 3rd Friday', etc.

So it is more suitable for me to keep a firewall between knowledge/text/info management and calendar/tasks. I'd prefer to copy and share an item from a list into Todoist (or schedule something in an unscheduled Todoist list) than have to ping pong between two or more apps to schedule tasks/events, because when it comes to getting things done, for me it's essential to have one calendar as hub

satis wrote:

So it is more suitable for me to keep a firewall between
knowledge/text/info management and calendar/tasks. I'd prefer to copy
and share an item from a list into Todoist (or schedule something in an
unscheduled Todoist list) than have to ping pong between two or more
apps to schedule tasks/events, because when it comes to getting things
done, for me it's essential to have one calendar as hub

Similar situation here: I do not see a benefit in having tasks strewn across several apps. I keep mine in one, and one only. I do not need task management in my knowledge management system.

Two other apps that I am aware of that can handle tasks as you're asking for are Amplenote and Organizedly. Amplenote tasks can be set to repeat, whereas I don't think Organizedly has that feature yet.

https://www.amplenote.com

https://organizedly.io

I also much prefer time-blocking. My big snag with calendars is that I haven't found one that can handle a large list without excessive scrolling. I'm disappointed that calendars often don't wrap text, nor provide an easy way to manage none timed items. If it were not for this I would completely ditch task managers. In the end every task must be done at some date and time and therefore a calendar would be a great place to manage this. It surprises me at just how limited most calendar apps are.

satis wrote:

My productivity comes from time-blocking, and putting tasks on my
calendar. I don't want to have to view two or more incompatible
calendars to see my events and tasks, and I don't want to use an app
which sends tasks to my calendar but cannot reflect back subsequent task
changes made in the calendar. Finally, there are so many excellent
calendar apps that are better than any I've seen inside any task app, so
I don't want to be forced to use a task manager's calendar even if it
can subscribe and sync to my Google calendars. And I heavily rely on
repeating tasks - weekly, monthly, yearly, 'every 3rd Friday', etc.

So it is more suitable for me to keep a firewall between
knowledge/text/info management and calendar/tasks. I'd prefer to copy
and share an item from a list into Todoist (or schedule something in an
unscheduled Todoist list) than have to ping pong between two or more
apps to schedule tasks/events, because when it comes to getting things
done, for me it's essential to have one calendar as hub

Simon wrote:

I also much prefer time-blocking. My big snag with calendars is that I
haven't found one that can handle a large list without excessive
scrolling. I'm disappointed that calendars often don't wrap text, nor
provide an easy way to manage none timed items. If it were not for this
I would completely ditch task managers.

On a window taking up two-thirds of a 27" screen I easily see a two-week calendar view from 5am-11:30pm. (On my Mac I'm currently using BusyCal, but the stock Apple Calendar app will smoothly show one-week views.)

I'm not sure how you use calendars, but I only time-block things that need to be done *during* the times blocked, but my task manager has numerous to-do items on a daily basis that are *not* scheduled. And I use my task manager for unscheduled lists of items that I may well end up scheduling upon review. So I could never give up a task manager in favor of just using a calendar.

satis wrote:

I use my task manager for unscheduled lists of items that I may well end up scheduling upon review. So I could never give up a task manager in favor of just using a calendar.

Good point. It is possible to use "all-day" event for unscheduled events. The main issue with this is that you do not capture the time required to complete the task (unless you enter it in the task name/description. The other issue is that many calendars do not let you move multiple events/tasks at once. Each one must be moved separately, which quickly becomes cumbersome.

InfoQube is rather unique in that events can be of one of 3 types:
- Scheduled (start time, end time, duration)
- All day (date)
- Unscheduled (date, duration)

In your planning, you create a bunch of tasks with date estimates and duration. Unscheduled events are automatically created and will show at the top of the calendar (if you choose to show tasks in the Calendar). If you wish, as these are completed, you can drag drop them to the scheduled part of the calendar to capture when they were actually done (i.e. at what time, optional). The dragged events will of course have the correct duration (as defined when the task was created)

"Shit happens" as they say, so you may need to move these to a later date (because not done). You can select any number of events and drag them to another day in one shot. If you also use the Gantt, it can be even easier to block move tasks to reschedule them.

Pierre
IQ Designer
https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/node/4874

Interested thread and responses. Years ago when I used to use apps that displayed both appointments and tasks together, even though my style was never to assign times to tasks since I have a somewhat fluid work schedule. They eventually separated, and now I have divided tasks from appointments and personal from work. My calendars now only hold actual appointments and give me an idea of what my free time will look like, expecting the many things that get dropped in my lap unexpected. I know this goes against all time management principles, but it does allow me to triage accordingly. But, I do understand why folks would want to "live in their calendar", and if they did, I can see the need for features that have been called out.

On a related note, I was evaluating a multi column "task manager", columns.app , because I liked the simplicity of its layout for some projects. The program, however, seems to have been released a bit early and really strikes me as a beta version at best. But what it did help me realize is that doing simple well is not a matter of stripping features, but of learning good UI principles (and allowing users enough customizations and control over how views look). I really liked this program's layout because it was clean, but it lacked enough basic features as to render it less than useful except for very simple situations. So, I am starting to become a big believer in programs and apps that give users a lot of choices in how to set up their programs and views, especially if simplicity is wanted, but done right.

--Ken

Very interesting how different people work, but I realize I just assumed it was obvious why someone would want to organize tasks in a knowledge manager because it is now the only way I can work, but I shouldn't have. Here is why:

1. CRM

Let's say you have a number of tasks that involves a person [[John Smith]] or an organization [[Acme Corp]]. If you tag them (as I have in this sentence) every time you make a task, then when you go to the page for that person or organization you will see backlinks to all the previous tasks you had for that person. This alone is so incredibly useful I can't understand how I ever lived without this.

2. Knowledge related tasks

The same is true if you are researching a concept (e.g. [[calculus]]) or the work of a scholar associated with that concept (i.e. [[Newton]]). For instance, if I have a task which is to read [[Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica]] by [[Newton]] for my paper on [[calculus]], then the pages to all of those tagged phrases will be linked together in my knowledge graph. If I forgot the name of the book I can just go to a page for what I do remember, such as [[Newton]] and quickly find the book I recently finished reading, along with all of my notes on the subject. When I am ready to write my paper on [[calculus]] all the tasks I completed related to that task will be there.

3. Create tasks as you take notes

But even more than backlinks and networked links, the ability to embed tasks in the context in which they occurred to me is even more important. If I am reading [[Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica]] and I suddenly realize I need to read [[Supplementum geometriae dimensoriae]] by [[Leibniz]] I can make a note right in the middle of my notes where the need to do so occurred to me. Then, when I see the task later, I will not only have a potentially meaningless note telling me I need to read something, but I will see from the context of the note why I needed to do this.

Or, to use another example, if I'm baking an [[apple pie]] and realize I need to make a task "buy sugar", I will see that this task was part of the project to bake an apple pie, which is essential information for me. I could, in Todoist, create a project "bake apple pie" and then a sub-task "buy sugar" but often I don't want to bake an apple pie right now, and don't want to clog up my task management app with such an unnecessary project. Rather, I am researching it because I would like to do it someday, and I realize that the only thing stopping me is the lack of sugar in the house. The next time I think of it I will see that I already completed this step, and so nothing is preventing me from making that pie.

--

These are just some made-up examples, but the reality is actually more wondrous and varied than this short account conveys. I really can't think of working any other way any more.

Pierre Paul Landry wrote:

satis wrote:
It is possible to use "all-day" event for unscheduled
events. The main issue with this is that you do not capture the time
required to complete the task (unless you enter it in the task
name/description. The other issue is that many calendars do not let you
move multiple events/tasks at once. Each one must be moved separately,
which quickly becomes cumbersome.

Yes. And in that use case I could see a calendar's 'events' extending past my computer screen.

And most task managers let you move all overdue tasks to the current (or another) day with a click. For example, I've been putting off researching a new PCP for my insurance company, and choosing a new external HD for backup - those items have been rolled over for at least a week now but aside from being annoyed with myself for not doing them it's better to have them in my task manager and not filling up a small slot at the top of my calendar.



Luhmann wrote:

if I'm baking an [[apple pie]] and realize I
need to make a task "buy sugar", I will see that this task was part of
the project to bake an apple pie, which is essential information for me.
I could, in Todoist, create a project "bake apple pie" and then a
sub-task "buy sugar" but often I don't want to bake an apple pie right
now, and don't want to clog up my task management app with such an
unnecessary project. Rather, I am researching it because I would like to
do it someday, and I realize that the only thing stopping me is the lack
of sugar in the house. The next time I think of it I will see that I
already completed this step, and so nothing is preventing me from making
that pie.

I do all my food shopping with Anylist (free or cheap yearly plan) which lets me tag items by store, imports ingredients from recipes online or from the clipboard, and lets me share lists with family members who can edit items. I don't need to remind myself to bake an apple pie (unless it's planned for an event), but I will add 'Food shopping' to my task manager, most likely by time-blocking it so it shows up in my calendar (whereupon I'll be sure to do it).

It was just an example. I don't actually do my food shopping this way...

I do all my food shopping with Anylist (free or cheap yearly plan) which
lets me tag items by store, imports ingredients from recipes online or
from the clipboard, and lets me share lists with family members who can
edit items. I don't need to remind myself to bake an apple pie (unless
it's planned for an event), but I will add 'Food shopping' to my task
manager, most likely by time-blocking it so it shows up in my calendar
(whereupon I'll be sure to do it).

I just recently had a look at columns.app too and my assessment is the same as yours: interesting and intriguing concept, but needs more work.

There is a similar app called Checklist (not Checkvist) that you may want to look at if you remain interested in that approach. I haven't used it, so this is no endorsement. Just a referral:

https://checklist.com

Steve

Ken wrote:

On a related note, I was evaluating a multi column "task manager",
columns.app , because I liked the simplicity of its layout for some
projects. The program, however, seems to have been released a bit early
and really strikes me as a beta version at best. But what it did help
me realize is that doing simple well is not a matter of stripping
features, but of learning good UI principles (and allowing users enough
customizations and control over how views look). I really liked this
program's layout because it was clean, but it lacked enough basic
features as to render it less than useful except for very simple
situations. So, I am starting to become a big believer in programs and
apps that give users a lot of choices in how to set up their programs
and views, especially if simplicity is wanted, but done right.

--Ken

Task managers used to be separated from calendars, which was problematic for many people. Now there is more integration.

The idea is that you only have time. This time is fixed for all of us. Tasks need to be placed within our daily available time. The problem with task managers is that they allow you to collect more than you can actually do. If you have a calendar that allows you to place all your tasks in and sort them out in your time schedule, that would be perfect. Closest so far is Noteplan. Distributing tasks in your calendar allows you to see actually how busy you are. Taking a task list and spreading ALL the tasks in your calendar gives you a more realistic idea of your workload. Plus it makes you more judicious about new calendar events.

I'm just amazed that most calendar do not allow you to work like this.

Integrating tasks into calendar view is exactly what Above and Beyond does.
http://www.1soft.com/

Sadly, I'm on macos.

Steve wrote:

Integrating tasks into calendar view is exactly what Above and Beyond
does.
http://www.1soft.com/

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I just recently had a look at columns.app too and my assessment is the
same as yours: interesting and intriguing concept, but needs more work.

There is a similar app called Checklist (not Checkvist) that you may
want to look at if you remain interested in that approach. I haven't
used it, so this is no endorsement. Just a referral:

https://checklist.com

Steve

First, it is nice to see you back in the forum, Steve. I know that you took some time away, but I am glad to see you back.

Second, it is funny that you recommended Checklist. For some reason, I believe that I came across it on the Android platform last year and then opened an account with them. I have not really used it much, but will take a look again. What I liked about Columns was the ability to have multiple lists next to each other and the ability to move items quickly between them and between the heading (dividers) in each list. In essence, this was really just a Kanban style board with swimlanes which can somewhat be re-created in a lot of other programs. But, for example, when I tried to do this in Quire.io (which states that it has swimlanes), it was a bit of a disaster because the Kanban board was designed for workflow only and could not easily be re-used for multiple lists.

I used to only try out programs that I truly thought I would use. Now, I am trying out more programs if only to help me further refine what I do and do not like in the designs of various apps/programs and how I think about the information I am handling. Sometimes it is fun to poke around a new app and play with it, but what I am finding is that it is also causing me to open my mind and question my assumptions and methodology. I expect very few programs to get me to radically change my habits, but even subtle refinements are appreciated.

--Ken

Luhmann, that was a lucid explanation of your points. Thanks. I may have to rethink how I work my notes...

Luhmann wrote:

Very interesting how different people work, but I realize I just assumed
it was obvious why someone would want to organize tasks in a knowledge
manager because it is now the only way I can work, but I shouldn't have.
Here is why:

1. CRM

Let's say you have a number of tasks that involves a person [[John
Smith]] or an organization [[Acme Corp]]. If you tag them (as I have in
this sentence) every time you make a task, then when you go to the page
for that person or organization you will see backlinks to all the
previous tasks you had for that person. This alone is so incredibly
useful I can't understand how I ever lived without this.

2. Knowledge related tasks

The same is true if you are researching a concept (e.g. [[calculus]]) or
the work of a scholar associated with that concept (i.e. [[Newton]]).
For instance, if I have a task which is to read [[Philosophiæ
Naturalis Principia Mathematica]] by [[Newton]] for my paper on
[[calculus]], then the pages to all of those tagged phrases will be
linked together in my knowledge graph. If I forgot the name of the book
I can just go to a page for what I do remember, such as [[Newton]] and
quickly find the book I recently finished reading, along with all of my
notes on the subject. When I am ready to write my paper on [[calculus]]
all the tasks I completed related to that task will be there.

3. Create tasks as you take notes

But even more than backlinks and networked links, the ability to embed
tasks in the context in which they occurred to me is even more
important. If I am reading [[Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia
Mathematica]] and I suddenly realize I need to read [[Supplementum
geometriae dimensoriae]] by [[Leibniz]] I can make a note right in the
middle of my notes where the need to do so occurred to me. Then, when I
see the task later, I will not only have a potentially meaningless note
telling me I need to read something, but I will see from the context of
the note why I needed to do this.

Or, to use another example, if I'm baking an [[apple pie]] and realize I
need to make a task "buy sugar", I will see that this task was part of
the project to bake an apple pie, which is essential information for me.
I could, in Todoist, create a project "bake apple pie" and then a
sub-task "buy sugar" but often I don't want to bake an apple pie right
now, and don't want to clog up my task management app with such an
unnecessary project. Rather, I am researching it because I would like to
do it someday, and I realize that the only thing stopping me is the lack
of sugar in the house. The next time I think of it I will see that I
already completed this step, and so nothing is preventing me from making
that pie.

--

These are just some made-up examples, but the reality is actually more
wondrous and varied than this short account conveys. I really can't
think of working any other way any more.

Luhmann wrote:

Let's say you have a number of tasks that involves a person [[John Smith]] or an organization [[Acme Corp]]. If you tag them (as I have in this sentence) every time you make a task, then when you go to the page for that person or organization you will see backlinks to all the previous tasks you had for that person. This alone is so incredibly useful I can't understand how I ever lived without this.

Question for you: How will this scale over time ? When you have hundreds of interactions with XYZ or references to subject ABC ?

I love this concept by @Luhmann – although Pierre’s question is an interesting one.

On the other hand: scaling ANY task management app is a challenge!

MadaboutDana wrote:

I love this concept by @Luhmann – although Pierre’s question is an interesting one. >
On the other hand: scaling ANY task management app is a challenge!

Not with appropriage filtering...
A corollary question, can Roam et al filter backlinks ? Is performance maintained with 10K+ pages and links ?

p.s. Seems this site has issues with non orthodox Unicode characters, punctuation in this case. Perhaps check your editor options !

So one of the things that both Roam and Obsidian do well (although I am more familiar with Roam) is allow you to filter your backlinks. So, if you have a bunch of meetings with [[Joan Smith]] and half of them are about [[project 1]] and half are about [[project 2]] you can filter (or filter out) the project you want (or don't want) to see. You can also create custom queries which will generate a list of hits based on search results (such as all blocks which have a certain word, even if it isn't tagged). You can also generate queries based on date ranges. And there are some third party tools, like Roam42 that let you do even more in terms of pulling this information. But the more you tag the less issue there is with finding stuff, especially when used with filtering.

Regarding performance, Roam currently is slow when handling large numbers. I currently have over a thousand completed tasks (automatically marked [[DONE]] when you check them off). I tried looking at these recently and discovered that it can take over a minute to generate the list of backlinks. However, once generated filtering and manipulating them is fast. Roam Research is working on a new backend that will supposedly be much more efficient. My understanding is that it is already working, but that they haven't implemented it because of issues with how to transition anyone without causing any disruptions or data loss. Hopefully it will be out later this year.

Regarding calendar based task management. This really makes no sense for me. I have due dates, yes, but how I use my time throughout the day is very fluid, and it would not make sense to try to put my tasks into a calendar. Calendar entries are basically times that I can't do anything else because I have a class or meeting or social engagement. If I were to, say, write down that I will spend two hours writing in the morning, the most likely scenario is that something else will come up at that time which requires my attention and I won't actually do the writing until the afternoon. Much more important for me is to know what I will write that day because I have some notes or an outline that will enable me to get to writing quickly without having to sit and remember what I was going to write about. But I guess everyone has very different work habits and jobs that lend themselves to different solutions.

It is interesting to see how other people approach their tasks. I have discretionary and non-discretionary time (Mark Forster). Non-discretionary is time I don't control, meetings, appointments, calls etc. discretionary time is where I chooses what I do next. This is where I lose most time, or did until I changed how I work. Cal Newport's time-blocking is not new. But the idea of looking at your week and filling in exactly what you will do when is very helpful. A more relaxed version is Ivy Lee's 6 things. My conclusion is that the time in my diary is the only time. By placing my tasks in my diary, I simply move from one task to the next. This allows me to accomplish quite a lot. Interruptions obviously can't be shceduled, but also don't need to interrupt at exactly the moment I'm focusing on something else. If the interruption gives me another task, I add it to my inbox. When I clear my inbox I must decide when the task gets done. For me, the bottom line is that I only have so much time available. Taking on more work than I have time for either means overwork, or not finishing all I have agreed to do. It's only by placing things in my diary in time slots that I actually see how busy I am. This is not visible from a list of tasks elsewhere. In the past I've had tasks on a list that after a year still weren't done. I'm better off putting everything in my schedule to see just what time I have free or prune my list. Cal Newport does that each week. My job is fairly fluid, so I do it on a daily basis, but also what needs to be accomplished that week.

Sadly calendars do not cater for such a workflow. I have signed up for a Noteplan 3 trial and it seems ideal for this.

Luhmann wrote:

Regarding calendar based task management. This really makes no sense for
me. I have due dates, yes, but how I use my time throughout the day is
very fluid, and it would not make sense to try to put my tasks into a
calendar. Calendar entries are basically times that I can't do anything
else because I have a class or meeting or social engagement. If I were
to, say, write down that I will spend two hours writing in the morning,
the most likely scenario is that something else will come up at that
time which requires my attention and I won't actually do the writing
until the afternoon. Much more important for me is to know what I will
write that day because I have some notes or an outline that will enable
me to get to writing quickly without having to sit and remember what I
was going to write about. But I guess everyone has very different work
habits and jobs that lend themselves to different solutions.

NotePlan can be used for this kind of time blocking; in fact, it’s a very effective way to organise precisely what you’re describing.

It’s also worth joining the Discord group to see other people’s solutions.

Simon wrote:

Sadly calendars do not cater for such a workflow. I have signed up for a
Noteplan 3 trial and it seems ideal for this.

In Outlook, for example, you can create a second calender and use that for this kind of time-blocking. You should be able to do that in Apple Calendar, too - on my iPhone, it works.

If I am not mistaken, Dr Andus once used a paper solution, I think he used index cards he could move around. Each card represented a predefined duration.