I'm just soooo jealous of Scrivener owners, but darn it, I don't own a Mac.

Windows alternatives: PageFour, Liquid Story Binder
Still more alternatives: Writer's Cafe, yWriter (free), WriteWay, WriteItNow and more...
*For MS Word diehards, "Chapter by Chapter" (S?bastien Berthet) is a great app to organize chapters/scenes kept as separate documents (and it's free!)
* An honorable mention goes to the wonderful SuperNoteCard.

Still, I keep searching for the Holy Grail of Windows Fiction Software. Recently I stumbled upon two blog posts discussing Wiki and creative writing:

WikidPad: "Open Source Life: wikidPad, logical tool for the creative" --> http://jeremyosborne.com/2007/10/20/open-source-life-wikidpad-logical-tool-for-the-creative/

ConnectedText: "ConnectedText - Scrivener for Windows?" --> http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2008/06/connectedtext-scrivener-for-windows.html

...And ZuluPad is cute, too...

Hmmm... I'm aware of the fact that a pen(cil) and a paper will work fine, too.

Michal,

One application you didn't mention as a Windows version of Scrivener is WhizFolders. It is worth taking a look at if you haven't. It has significantly more word processing functions than WikidPad or ConnectedText, and also has a Wiki-style linking function.

http://www.whizfolders.com/

Steve Z.

Thanks :)
I now recall reading about WhizFolders in posts here. I see there's a Deluxe edition with key words, hoisting etc. http://www.whizfolders.com/compareeditions.aspx

A question and a statement for Michal:

- what can a wiki contribute to fiction-writing, other than storage of research and initial random-ish jottings? For the task of writing itself, even of fiction, I'd say one needs a structural hierarchy rather than a web, an outline rather than a wiki (even if, as in WhizFolders, the outline has supplementary wiki features). However, I'd be genuinely interested in the contrary view.

- I don't think the Holy Grail in this field exists (or possibly any other...). Even Scrivener has its weaknesses - which is one reason its developer is currently undertaking a big update. (But yes, it is the best and very thoughtfully put together.) Of the rest, Writer's Cafe looks good in its new version. I particularly like its Storylines feature, which appears to be built around comprehensive timelining.

H

Hugh wrote:

A question and a statement for Michal:

- what can a wiki contribute to
fiction-writing, other than storage of research and initial random-ish jottings?
For the task of writing itself, even of fiction, I'd say one needs a structural
hierarchy rather than a web, an outline rather than a wiki (even if, as in WhizFolders,
the outline has supplementary wiki features). However, I'd be genuinely interested
in the contrary view.

- I don't think the Holy Grail in this field exists (or possibly
any other...). Even Scrivener has its weaknesses - which is one reason its developer
is currently undertaking a big update. (But yes, it is the best and very thoughtfully
put together.) Of the rest, Writer's Cafe looks good in its new version. I
particularly like its Storylines feature, which appears to be built around
comprehensive timelining.

H

Hi Hugh,

I regard differently the writing process and the final, structured manuscript ;)

I guess the best writing tool for a writer depends on the type of writer he/she is. A plotter might have a harder time (and a migraine...) dealing with a loosely-structured writing tool compared to a pantser. If you happen to write by the seat of your pants, type scenes as they come without worrying about where they will end up, and conduct your research while you write -- 'cause you have no idea what you want to research until you stumble upon your next scene -- than a tool with Wiki features might prove useful. Thus while you work, you're not limited by a structure, you can link back and forth between scenes, characters, plotlines, timelines and whatever thanks to a Wiki's ability to link between pages. In a sense, you won't get lost -- you'll have instant access to every bit of information related to your project.

Of course, at some point you'll have to drop scenes/chapters into their rightful place. That's when *structure* is needed. So my "Holy Grail" must be a good outliner and have the ability to present material in a tree structure.

You pointed out using a Wiki to store research and random notes; I see a Wiki as a home for the reality/universe of your novel. Working on a long project (60-90K words), you tend to forget things... The color of John Doe's eyes, what's on Lora's nightstand, and what the heck was Jessica doing when the murder took place? If you're into paranormal stuff, what creatures inhabit your micro-cosmos and do those darn rage demons have an aversion to smoking or was it the nymphs? How much time is from Barstow to Needles, CA? Etc...
I think a Wiki is the perfect tool to create a web of interrelated information... Much more than "storage". It could be the fabric of your living, breathing made-up universe ;)

Of course I'd love a timeline feature, you're right about Storylines. I own Writer's Cafe *because* of Storylines. I think SuperNoteCard can be used in a similar fashion, especially the new 2.8 version, allowing you to organize cards in rows and columns while keeping gaps.

I hope I made some sort of sense ;)

Michal

For myself, on Windows I like yWriter for writing and SuperNoteCard for organizing. Both are very well thought-out programs, IMHO. -- Dave

I've been looking at this area recently -- software to produce a first draft of longer pieces of fiction. A text editor with a few bells and whistles to help me organise my thoughts. No bloat allowed. I looked at Whizfolders but it just seemed like....too much. A bit over-the-top for the relatively simple task of structuring long pieces of text.

At the moment I've got my list down to two options. First up is Writer's Cafe/Storylines, which others have already mentioned. Version 2 does have a nicer feel to it, and it does everything I need, including outputting the completed draft to a single text file, for final preparation in Word.

The other option is NoteTab Pro (http://www.notetab.com/ The "outline file" option in NoteTab Pro works well -- breaking a single document down into units (e.g. chapters/scenes) and again with a straightforward export option to a "standard" text file. And if you can handle a little bit of scripting, the NoteTab "clips" feature allows you to do a lot of tidying up of your project before you export. I wrote a script to remove all headings in the outline file, check the number of spaces after periods and remove blank lines, leaving me with a perfectly formatted document. Powerful stuff.

I'm still not sure which is the best option, but the minimalist in me is leaning towards NoteTab. The only annoying thing is that it's probably the only text editor in existence that I don't have a licence for. My existing editors (EmEditor/Textpad/Boxer....) don't have an outline option that works as well as NoteTab. Might be time to complete my collection of text editors...

Slight amendment to my post above. It's now a three-horse race. The Journal (http://www.davidrm.com/thejournal/index.php is also a pretty good option for drafting long chunks of text, with a pleasant interface and good export options when you're done. Decisions, decisions...

JohnK,

I know what you mean about NoteTab. There is something very enticing about its simple, plain-text interface. I often use NT for writing... usually after I've struggled to get something coherent written in another program. While I've bought a license for the Standard version, I have not yet used the outlining function. Maybe I'll have to give it a try.

Steve Z.

Steve (and JohnK)

I used Notetab Pro for my last writing project. The "outlining" features really only provide a simple Table-of-Contents. But it is surprisingly useful to be able to navigate section headings in this way.

Here are some of the downsides as I recall them:

1. Bookmarks do not work across outline documents (i.e., sections). Even moving out of one section cancels its bookmark(s). This means they are only useful in single documents, not outline (*.otl) ones. There are workarounds for this, but it's not "out of the box".

2. Using "undo": Once one moves out of the section in question, one can no longer undo a previous mistake in that section. This is a major problem. Again, this only applies to *.otl documents.

3. Detailed formatting has to be postponed until the text goes elsewhere (e.g., into Word) - unless, that is, one uses NoteTab as a LaTex editor.

4. The "Paste Board" function sometimes stops working (this may be owing to interference from Zoot). In any case, using a proper clipboard extender like Clipcache is often more useful...

On the positive side, it is a very elegant program, and has its own versioning system - a major plus IMO... I really enjoyed working inside it. I am hoping that the upcoming Zoot 6 will also provide a decent editing environment, while maintaining its own characteristic understated elegance.

Other programs that may be worth looking at are:

http://www.mytreedb.com/treedbnotes_free.html

http://www.tranglos.com/free/keynote.html [no longer being developed, but excellent]

Derek

Derek,

Thanks for your thoughts on Notetab Pro. I agree that Keynote remains a competitive program, despite the fact that the latest version was released in 2003. But I feel uneasy about putting content into the proprietary database of a program that has been abandoned for five years, however stable it may be...

Above all, I share your hope for Zoot6. If I recall correctly a beta is due in January.

John

JohnK - if I recall correctly KeyNote can be set up with virtual rtf nodes meaning that nothing is locked into a proprietary database.

Francis Morrone wrote:

JohnK - if I recall correctly KeyNote can be set up with virtual rtf nodes meaning that
nothing is locked into a proprietary database.

You're absolutely right. And virtual txt nodes as well. I had no idea. That makes it a much stronger option. Thank you.

JohnK,

Quite a few programs will import Keynote (*.knt) files, so the proprietary aspects should not be too much of a problem - e.g.
Mybase, NoteCase Pro, Treepad, TreeDBNotes 3, GemX-TexNotes, and so on. I don't know how well they all do this, but it's encouraging.

I've probably left some more programs out. Indeed, since Keynote was once (and some people would say still is) the two-pane outliner that commercial competitors had to beat, it was in the interests of most to provide an easy pathway from Keynote to their products.

DonationCoder has a lengthy roundup of "notetaking programs" at:

http://www.donationcoder.com/Reviews/Archive/NoteTakers1/index.php

Derek

I have never quite understood the fascination with footnote, but not for want of trying.

Those who are fascinated by it might profit from the fork that is being actively developed. They might want to look at this:
-----
This project is an evolution of Tranglos Keynote (of Marek Jedlinski), with new features like:
* Checkboxes on children of selected nodes --- Selecting checkboxes for all nodes (View/Tree Checkboxes -- now View/All nodes Checkboxes) is still posible. Besides, checkboxes can be shown only on children of selected nodes (Children Checkbox)
* Hidden nodes
Capacity to work with hidden nodes. Nodes can be hidden in two ways:
o Activating a mode wich automatically hides checked nodes (Show or Hide checked nodes)
o Filtering one note's nodes or all notes under a searching criterion (Filter Tree Note)
* Alarms on nodes
* Better treatment of tables

The original program can be found in http://www.tranglos.com/free/keynote.html

This project is now available in SourceForge as KeyNote - New feature:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/keynote-newfeat/

There is a forum in:
http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=848656
-----
The developer also has a blog (I think it's in Spanish):
http://dpradov.blogspot.com/2008/07/nueva-versin-de-keynote-171.html

Enjoy,
Manfred

not "footnote" but "Keynote"

Manfred, the fascination is in part that when KeyNote came out there were few such programs that were both "folding" and tabbed, something that is now commonplace. But in addition, KeyNote was written by an academic/researcher/translator and I, as someone in the same broad category, found the program very elegantly and carefully thought out: virtual nodes, easy insertion of diacritical marks, and what to date is the best-implemented search function I've found in such a program. I am very sad that development stopped - otherwise I might still be using it. Clearly, programs such as ConnectedText (which I admire) and Zoot (which I use) far exceed KeyNote's capabilities when it comes to the sorts of stochastic capabilities many of us now look for in notetaking programs. But KeyNote remains a superb example of a carefully thought out program written by an intelligent person for his own use.

Well, as I said, it's MY limitation, but during the early days of KeyNote I was still using Ecco, a one-pane outliner with MUCH more powerful search capabilities. I still would prefer Ecco as an outlining application. Indeed, I would prefer any one-pane outliner over a two-pane outliner, though Treepad had some appeal for a short while.

I just thought that some people who like KeyNote might be interested in looking at the new fork (and perhaps have some influence on how it will be developed.
Manfred

Manfred,

Thanks for posting details of new developments in respect of Keynote. I would have done so myself, but after months of inaction by the SourceForge site I had assumed that nothing was ever going to happen, and gave up on it about a year or so ago. I am so glad to have been wrong about that.

Derek

Although the arrival of Zoot6 may well throw everything up in the air again, I think I have settled on using The Journal (http://www.davidrm.com/thejournal/ for writing drafts of long-ish documents. The more I play with it, the more I like it. It's well thought out and it has excellent export options.

I was interested to find that The Journal editor uses the TRichView editing components (http://www.trichview.com/ which are also used to good advantage in AM-Notebook, another program I use regularly.

JohnK wrote:

I was interested to find that
The Journal editor uses the TRichView editing components
(http://www.trichview.com/ which are also used to good advantage in
AM-Notebook, another program I use regularly.

...and MyInfo, apparently. What a pity TRichView doesn't seem to provide a way of implementing single-pane outlining, as far as I can see.

Derek

Derek Cornish wrote:

What a pity TRichView doesn't seem to provide a way of implementing single-pane outlining, as far as I can see.

Correct, it is basically an rich text editor (using a proprietary format ?), so it serves as a basis for a word-processor type application, aka a 2-pane outliner. To build an 1-pane outliner, you need to use a totally different control.

Pierre

Michael wrote: "I?m just soooo jealous of Scrivener owners, but darn it, I don?t own a Mac," and is curious about a good personal wiki program. Hate to add to the jealousy, but VoodooPad 4 http://flyingmeat.com/voodoopad/ is an amazing wiki program, but it only works on the latest OS X operating system. Many people using it say that they couldn't imagine what they would use it for, but the ease with which the program creates links got them addicted. (I like Scrivener, and I'm not sure I have a use for VoodooPad, but it is fun to play around with.) Comes in 3 versions, free, $19.95, and $49.95, depending on features. Even if PC users can't use it, it provides a pretty impressive standard for what such programs can offer.

Randall S.

I agree that there is no real alternative to Scrivener on the PC. But there is more than real competition to Voodoopad on the PC, namely ConnectedText, which is much more capable than Voodoopad. The search function is much too anemic, for instance.

By the way, I am returning my MAC ibook to the department after trying to work on it for more than a year. I am just too tied to the PC, and neither Voodoopad, which I actually bought, nor Scrivener, which I tried extensively as well, nor any of the many excellent outliners were enough to move me to that platform.

The main reason for this is, in fact, ConnectedText.
Manfred

You might also look at http://www.outlinersoftware.com/messages/viewm/2567
Manfred