Hi friends, I'm doing some long form writing again and I find myself looking for a very specific kind of capability. Wondering if anyone had any suggestions:

I'm looking to write very structured content where each section starts with a main argument, and each paragraph starts with a topic sentence. I'd like each sentence to be it's own bullet appropriately nested within the argument chain:

Main Argument for the section

>Main point 1 (Topic Sentence for first paragraph)
>>>Support sentence for point 1
>>>Support sentence for point 2
>Main Point 2 (second paragraph)
>>>Support sentence for point 2

etc.

Now I can do this already with pretty much any outliner, the issue is then getting the work OUT of this outliner without major reformatting work to put things in normal paragraphs and spacing. Does anyone have any workflow ideas or software recommendations for an approach like this? Thanks.

There are many possible approaches, of course, but off the top of my mind, I would recommend three programs that have the advantage of allowing you to work in hierarchical mode and paragraph mode simultaneously:

1. Microsoft Word Outline View (Mac or Windows). You can go back and forth between Outline View (hierarchical) and any of the normal views.

2. Scrivener (Mac or Windows): You could create your outline hierarchy as headings in the left-hand panel, and then start fleshing out the paragraphs in the main (right-hand) panel. (Scrivener is one of the only programs that functions as a two-pane outliner but presents the entire, concatenated text in the right-hand pane.)

3. Sense Editor from Silva Elm (Windows). This program hasn't been updated in a few years, but it has some unique affordances. If you install the free OPML plugin, you can create a hierarchical structure and work in regular document mode simultaneously, somewhat akin to the way Scrivener works.

Alternatively, if you're on a Mac and have Tinderbox, there are many export options to help you transform an outline into regular text.

(And of course there are a variety of program combinations that could allow you to go from outline to OPML to regular text, but my memory isn't so clear on that score.)

If I were doing this I would used software that supports "styles", so you can easily apply formatting, numbering, indentation, etc. to a block of text. For that, Microsoft Word comes to mind first, because it is so ubiquitous on all platforms. On macOS, I would rank Pages, Scrivener, Mellel, NisusWirter. On Windows, Scrivener, also, and LibreOffice. If you do not mind working in a cloud environment, Apple's Pages in a browser is almost identical to Pages on macOS on the desktop -- just create a free iCloud.com account.

For this kind of document I personally would not select Tinderbox -- it would be good for the formal outlining portion, but the styling and export would entail more fiddling (and thus frustration) than any of the apps above, and it by far the most expensive choice.

I posted about such a tool recently: Zeksa.

https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/9000

Personally I use Ulysses for this:

https://ulysses.app/

Dynalist does not have great output formatting options like Ulysses, but it is easy to export as plain text:

https://dynalist.io/

Oh, seems that Zeksa is currently down. Hopefully the developer will get it back up again...

thouqht wrote:

Main Argument for the section
>>Main point 1 (Topic Sentence for first paragraph)
>>>>Support sentence for point 1
>>>>Support sentence for point 2
>>Main Point 2 (second paragraph)
>>>>Support sentence for point 2
etc.

Now I can do this already with pretty much any outliner, the issue is then getting the work OUT of this outliner without major reformatting work to put things in normal paragraphs and spacing.

Hi thought,

InfoQube (Windows app) was recently updated to support exactly that writing scenario. It can now export a rich-text compound document, using the items outline as style headings
Very important too, items have an additional property, as to whether they are headings (hence styled) or paragraph content.

Checkout these doc pages:
https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/?q=node/3489
https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/?q=node/4335

Pierre Paul Landry
IQ Designer

Outline 4D is another possibility but I wouldn't recommend buying it at full price (there are several promotions throughout the year).

https://drandus.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/outline-4d-for-drafting-and-reverse-outlining/

Firstly:
Sounds like the OP wants Macro creation, which has been available on MS Word for three decades. Basically a Macro automates certain procedures at touch of a button(s), predefined by the user. I recall programming their word Macros (with API code), alongside their database (MS Access coding) and even a couple of other applications all into a single project. People loved watching it run. That, API coding alongside Macros, would be overkill for OP.

For average users outlining, MS Word outline and Macros will do for formatting pre-programmed text styles and is dead easy. You can then export the result into other apps. Or import, whichever way needed.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ms+word+macros

Secondly:
Furthermore, Notecase Pro (Win, Mac, Linux, free or pro version) let's one create shortcuts by using keyboard/mouse combos similar to basic Macro. Also tools for custom content creation:

https://www.notecasepro.com/help/help_files/notes/azKDB0zmyEtaSbn5A7mOvQ.html

https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Anotecasepro.com+shortcuts


Finally:
Going up a level, formally speaking, the analogy and strategy can be expanded. For example how to organize and make project management for a big task using automation and breakdowns as much as possible. To take the pain out, for big Tasks, such as writing a book or a doctoral thesis etc. There are methods and processes and tools which can be custom hacked for that too. But that would be off-topic as the OP seems to just want a way to automate his/her sentence and paragraph templates' types to be generated at the touch of a button or combo of buttons and/or mouse clicks. That would be Macros.

WhizFolders works really well for me. Templates may provide the structure you want and you can set up styles. When done, a simple export to rtf is all you need.

I agree that NoteCase is also a good choice. IQ may be more that you need, but it will work as well.

Jon

Whizfolders (windows) has not been updated for a while and looks will remain as is, so I stopped using it, as can't afford to invest long time strategy in it. Most expensive of all is time, long term investment in an app that will not be evolving. Notecase Pro and RightNote (windows only) keep updating and more importantly evolving with new features and modernizing looks, functions etc.

RightNote also has a second column feature, second dimensional outliner, which is rare and is quite unique, as is. The OP's short requirement spec seems to imply he's looking for defining customized paragraph styles template setup, plus launching each quickly.

However the rest of the suggestions in the thread might help him, and also others too in other areas. So it's all good as usual. Also any OP question would be better if they specify the platform when starting the thread. Windows, Mac, chrome os, Linux, cloud app etc. Or being open to a new platform as specified. Same goes for replies though ideally.

One app that is also frozen in time is what the doc suggested, Outline 4D. However it has certain unique features for organizing, overview of large projects etc, that I still use it. Often such devs see updating and modernizing the product with a new GUI library and new features basically means coding from scratch. These are big projects and at a stage in their life they just can't do that any more for whatever reasons. Not for the returns.

I'm sure if they were offered a million upfront they'd manage to somehow redo it and modernize and evolve it. That's how many apps become abandonware or virtually so. Effort needed vs Projected return. Also sometimes they forgot much of what they coded in the first place, as these have thousands of lines of code if not tens of thousands. Most don't document or go fully modular when coding. So years later looks like a plate of spaghetti Bolognese.

A rather good free option would be open-source Manuscripts, a writing tool for academic writing in particular:

https://www.manuscriptsapp.com

It’s a large program, but does what it does extremely well. It’s optimised for highly structured papers.

Thanks for all the feedback. I realized that as long as you put blank space between paragraphs and after headings, you can use Roam Research or Dynalist and simply format it all in vim with a single command.

I've really been loving Roam, so I think I'm going to give that a shot. It *seems* like roam is going to be a safe bet for at least a while and I'm hesitant to develop a workflow around a dead software.

Interesting about Manuscripts. I didn't know it. At first I had it conflated with "Manuskript" (http://www.theologeek.ch/manuskript/ but I see that it is different. It looks awesome. However, there seem to have been no updates since the launch in October, and the forum is filled with spam. Plus the website's security certificate is outdated. I hope it continues to be developed.

A Mac app, isn't it? As washere pointed out, and as I've pointed out in the past, it'd be *really* helpful to identify apps as Mac, Windows, or whatever when first mentioning them.

MadaboutDana wrote:

A rather good free option would be open-source Manuscripts, a writing
tool for academic writing in particular:

https://www.manuscriptsapp.com

It’s a large program, but does what it does extremely well.
It’s optimised for highly structured papers.

Sorry, yes, you’re quite right. It’s a Mac-only app, unfortunately.

But they had BIG plans for further development a couple of years ago. I’m hoping it’s one of those projects that’s kind of thrashing along behind the scenes and will suddenly emerge, fully fledged, into the glorious light of day (a bit like AquaMinds NoteTaker 4). I believe they were muttering about cross-platform development, too (macOS, Windows, Linux).

I appreciate this may be a bit optimistic!

Cheers,
Bill

I think our original poster could do the job with emacs (org-mode) and pandoc. There's easy toggling between views, powerful navigating and editing commands, plus very fine control over output. Both are open source and available on any platform EXCEPT cloud.

They have indeed been busy and they are now part of Atypon: For the web-based, cross-platform version of Manuscripts app, please see https://www.manuscripts.io

Matthias
—
keypoints.app


MadaboutDana wrote:

Sorry, yes, you’re quite right. It’s a Mac-only app,
unfortunately.

But they had BIG plans for further development a couple of years ago.

thouqht wrote:

>Main Argument for the section
>>>Main point 1 (Topic Sentence for first paragraph)
>>>>>Support sentence for point 1
>>>>>Support sentence for point 2
>>>Main Point 2 (second paragraph)
>>>>>Support sentence for point 2
>etc.

Now I can do this already with pretty much any outliner, the issue isthen getting the work OUT of this outliner without major reformatting work to put things in normal paragraphs and spacing.

Hi thought,

If you aren't totally happy with Roam, IQ v115 just released includes a improved outline export command with more selection / formatting options

Doc was updated. Read all about it here:

https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/?q=node/4335

Pierre Paul Landry
IQ Designer

What about Gingko?

https://gingkoapp.com/
https://gingko.io/

You can use Markdown to format and export to Word or PDF.

thouqht wrote:

Main Argument for the section
>>Main point 1 (Topic Sentence for first paragraph)
>>>>Support sentence for point 1
>>>>Support sentence for point 2
>>Main Point 2 (second paragraph)
>>>>Support sentence for point 2
etc.

If you're main concern is structured argumentation, there's a lightweight markup language to express such relations:

https://argdown.org/

There is a VSCode (text editor) extension for Argdown support, and with a capable text editor, you get most outliner features, including folding parts and moving lines around.

Reder wrote:

What about Gingko?

Gingko is MIA. I purchased the Gingko2 desktop app 51 months ago and its development has crawled forward, and it remains incompatible with the online version.

The dev Adriano Ferrari "designed my own productivity software. “HabitShaper”, which is now abandonded. And “Stride”, a task manager based on how CPU’s juggle and complete tasks, which *ahem* I never completed."

There's a pattern there.