I have always found the collegiality of this forum a refreshing change from much of the rest of the web. I am saddened to see a number of commenters injecting the contentiousness of social media into our discussion and disparaging collegiality. And for the record I have never read a "vapid pro-developer" post on this site.

Steve Z

Agreed !

(Except for the Mac vs PC comments, which appears a bit too often to my taste... When I'm back from holidays, I'd like to start a thread on "how to" in Mac vs PC parallel worlds, to help the two solitudes understand each other)

Pierre Paul Landry

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

And for the record I have never
read a "vapid pro-developer" post on this site.

For the record I, unfortunately, have, along with a certain amount of snide bullying at times, which is one of the reasons I don't contribute much to this forum any more. But I do agree that this is generally a forum of well-behaved contributors and one of the better ones on the web in that respect.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I have always found the collegiality of this forum a refreshing change
from much of the rest of the web. I am saddened to see a number of
commenters injecting the contentiousness of social media into our
discussion and disparaging collegiality.

Fully agree.

And for the record I have never
read a "vapid pro-developer" post on this site.

I had to look up "vapid" :-) Thanks for expanding my vocabulary, whoever came up with that adjective.

Well, yes, there are vapid posts on this forum. Some are annoying, some even offensive (interestingly, those who offend others tend to be offended when someone else points that out). And a lot are instructive, helpful, fun to read. I have no problem with someone sharing his or her enthusiasm with a (new) piece of software. I do not see that as pro-developer in contrast to pro-user.

The forum should be inclusive of all viewpoints. One's "sensitivity" to strongly worded posts - provided, of course, that those posts do not devolve into personal attacks, insults, or profanity, which none of us want to see - does not trump that goal. I see none of the venom and vulgarity on this forum that plague many other forums. If you're offended or outraged or "triggered" by the posts made by a specific commenter, then don't read them. You don't get to control how others express themselves, nor do you get to censor what they choose to post (with the caveat, again, of no attacks, insults, etc.).

One can be collegial without being vapid. One can be a thought leader without being a thought controller.


Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I have always found the collegiality of this forum a refreshing change
from much of the rest of the web. I am saddened to see a number of
commenters injecting the contentiousness of social media into our
discussion and disparaging collegiality. And for the record I have never
read a "vapid pro-developer" post on this site.

Steve Z

I hope that my positive developer posts (Sheetplanner, Aquaminds Notetaker) outnumber my negative posts (DropTask). It comes down to whether the app is making my life more orderly or less orderly and less predictable. Part of it is the genre of software we have embraced. We all know how many excellent apps were discontinued because there are too few people like those in this group who think in outline or mindmap form. Like the drug Atenolol, sometimes something good and inexpensive is pulled from the market so that something less good and more expensive can be substituted. Makes me grouchy.

Erm ...

tightbeam wrote:

You don't get to control how others
express themselves, nor do you get to censor what they choose to post

which you then follow by a list of things you think should be censored:

personal attacks, insults, or profanity, which none of us
want to see

Which really epitomises the problem because we're different people from different cultures with different expectations and with different linguistic abilities. Personally, I couldn't give a flying f*** how much profanity gets flung around, but that's me personally - clearly you're sensitive to it whereas I'm not. On the other hand, I would add bullying to any banned list, as a victim in real life I know how damaging it is, and how it can't be avoided just by not reading posts that may or may not contain it - but other clearly don't share my views on that and just think we're snowflakes who need to man up. Personally I try to behave online as I would in real life, and that's why I don't hide behind a pseudonym like so many others.

Don't @ me - I'm just pointing out an apparent paradox in your post.

Erm...

Isn't it simply common sense not to tolerate "personal attacks, insults, and profanity"? And yes, bullying, too. I'm not sensitive to any of it, though I believe its absence constitutes the bare minimum for civilized discourse. Of course, this being a free, public forum, no one (and that includes me) can "censor" such things, so if you want to say that my mother wears army shoes, or that I'm a piece of [insert favorite pejorative here], okey doke. The appropriateness of a post ought to be the value it contains.

Graham Rhind wrote:

Erm ...

tightbeam wrote:
>You don't get to control how others
>express themselves, nor do you get to censor what they choose to post

which you then follow by a list of things you think should be censored:

> personal attacks, insults, or profanity, which none of us
> want to see

Which really epitomises the problem because we're different people from
different cultures with different expectations and with different
linguistic abilities. Personally, I couldn't give a flying f*** how much
profanity gets flung around, but that's me personally - clearly you're
sensitive to it whereas I'm not. On the other hand, I would add bullying
to any banned list, as a victim in real life I know how damaging it is,
and how it can't be avoided just by not reading posts that may or may
not contain it - but other clearly don't share my views on that and just
think we're snowflakes who need to man up. Personally I try to behave
online as I would in real life, and that's why I don't hide behind a
pseudonym like so many others.

Don't @ me - I'm just pointing out an apparent paradox in your post.

I have really enjoyed providing this site for thirteen years now. The main reason is the excellent and insightful discussion of software. A secondary reason is that I have had to do almost zero policing of the forum, to the point where I hardly feel like a moderator. Which is great, because it isn't a role I particularly cherish.

I have never banned any user (that I recall), and I have removed profanity from posts only a few times. Regardless of one's personal sensitivities, it does seem superfluous when communicating any points regarding software.

Let's try to maintain the spirit of this forum and remain civil. The purpose of the forum is to discuss software.

Chris Murtland wrote:

Let's try to maintain the spirit of this forum and remain civil. The
purpose of the forum is to discuss software.

As always, thanks Chris! The forum is a very special place on the web for me, and it does seem to have a special spirit that makes it what it is. Maintaining it can sometimes be a challenge as we only have the written word for communication, many members have primary languages other than English (which makes using localized slang in posts interesting and educational, albeit sometimes a bit challenging), and we have an open door. Nonetheless, it seems to keep that spirit and maintain itself year after year and that does say something about the many members who hold the belief in giving their fellow members the benefit of the doubt. We are also gracious about the occasional OT post, but almost always seem to find our way back to the software. I am hoping that despite the lack of "formal" rules and moderators, that we can continue ahead in that same spirit despite a few bumps. IMHO, the loss of information, feedback and support from folks here would definitely be noticed if the forum was not able to keep going as it has in the past.

Thanks,

--Ken

Graham Rhind wrote:

> personal attacks, insults, or profanity, which none of us
> want to see

Which really epitomises the problem because we're different people from
different cultures with different expectations and with different
linguistic abilities. Personally, I couldn't give a flying f*** how much
profanity gets flung around, but that's me personally

If curbing personal attacks, insults and profanity is a problem, let the problem commence.

For many years, I worked in the area of "intellectual freedom," mainly in public libraries. In the USA, this refers to the Constitution's First Amendment right to speak freely. I believe that.

I also embrace my Millennial daughter's comment that "I'm not opposed to free speech. I just think we need more free speech worth listening to."

On the internet, we also have the right to say what we feel or think. Yet a lot of what people say is devastatingly dull or dumb or deliberately offensive. How then should we respond?

I can't speak for others. But I strive to be kind, to be clear, to offer insight and encouragement. I frankly don't have the skills to program the software I want to use. I sure appreciate it when someone else offers an attempt. That doesn't mean that I have to give them a pass on things that don't work. But I begin with an attitude of gratitude. I offer critiques to *encourage* them to improve their work, to our mutual benefit.

Thus far, outlinersoftware.com has been one of the more civil spaces on the web. Let's keep talking about ideas, and not about personalities we may or may not understand.

This is a community. Communities are based on mutually nurturing relationships.

Thanks Chris for maintaining this forum. I came to this forum initially because I was frustrated at the lack of decent cross platform (meaning mac desktop and iPhone) outlining software that met my needs. Now, several years later, Dynalist (while far from perfect) mostly meets my needs. That means I am much less active here than I was in the past. Nonetheless, I have come to value this forum during that time and like to check in semi-regularly, precisely for some of the reasons already mentioned in this thread. I don't really know what caused this thread to be written, but I have found the discussions here to be informative and relatively free of acrimony. That is more than one can say of much of the internet these days.