It served me well in the ’m considering making a Filemaker app for it.

I do. ߙˢ ♀️

I use it with Tinderbox and have loads to say about it.

Do you use the attribute function to add "fields" (categories) to the notes? That was my first instinct, but I am such a klutz with Tinderbox, I never got to stage 1.

Beck's videos are great. Just in case you haven't seen them.

Beck wrote:

I do. ߙˢ ♀️

I use it with Tinderbox and have loads to say about it.

Were it not for Beck, I wouldn't have ever heard of Zettelkasten. I even bought a book by Umberto Eco in hopes of getting some insights. I wrote a lengthy term paper on Central America using the notecard system (when I was 12 years old), and continued to use notecards and Cornell writing paper until the computer came of age for the common man. I would like to be able to use Tinderbox for these sorts of notes.

Jeffrey, have you seen the videos? I do a lot (too much!) rambling on and on about using TBX for this explicitly.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOdcySa5EQVRz_I6ZXFRc8A/playlists?view=1&sort=dd&shelf_id=0

Jeffery Smith wrote:

Were it not for Beck, I wouldn't have ever heard of Zettelkasten. I even
bought a book by Umberto Eco in hopes of getting some insights. I wrote
a lengthy term paper on Central America using the notecard system (when
I was 12 years old), and continued to use notecards and Cornell writing
paper until the computer came of age for the common man. I would like to
be able to use Tinderbox for these sorts of notes.

Actually, I'm reviewing a few right now (the one named "part two"). It occurred to me that a notecard system would always have some fields in common (fields for notes, source, topic, category, etc.), but Zettelkasten doesn't seem to have any fixed template. Tinderbox would allow taking a note (notes) with a title or topic, and then a seemingly unlimited number of specific fields for tracking the source, date, whether or not it is a quote, etc. With Filemaker, I can make a basic template, and then design a form with the relevant notes. My issue is that I get distracted by futzing with the form, the programming, the appearance, etc. If I could master Tinderbox just for Zettelkasten note taking, I wouldn't have that distraction of tweaking the tool instead of just using it.

Have you considered using prototypes for notes in Tinderbox? This allows you to create schemas for different classes of notes, e.g. no ISBN number for web URLs ...
Was this your concern?

Jeffery Smith wrote:

Actually, I'm reviewing a few right now (the one named "part two"). It
occurred to me that a notecard system would always have some fields in
common (fields for notes, source, topic, category, etc.), but
Zettelkasten doesn't seem to have any fixed template. Tinderbox would
allow taking a note (notes) with a title or topic, and then a seemingly
unlimited number of specific fields for tracking the source, date,
whether or not it is a quote, etc. With Filemaker, I can make a basic
template, and then design a form with the relevant notes. My issue is
that I get distracted by futzing with the form, the programming, the
appearance, etc. If I could master Tinderbox just for Zettelkasten note
taking, I wouldn't have that distraction of tweaking the tool instead of
just using it.

What you want is Blackwell Idealist. Alas, now deceased.

I can't think, off-hand, of any other app that allows you to add random fields to a single record. Anyone?

askSam both DOS and Windows version allowed for this. No longer available, yet the last versions are still working as long as you install in non-protected system directories. Placed in c:\bin\askSam was a good decision for when Windows updated.

Just did not make a good transition to Window, worked but had formatting issues with text.

Many programs allowed for templates (InfoSelect, Personal Knowbase, Zoot) all come to mind. Zoot being the best of the group if you are Windows based.

ConnectedText allows placing arbitrary fields (which CT calls properties or attributes) within any single topic.

askSam was wonderful in the DOS world, and not so in the Windows world. The same goes for MaxThink, XyWrite, Q&A, and Nota Bene.

Arnold wrote:

askSam both DOS and Windows version allowed for this. No longer
available, yet the last versions are still working as long as you
install in non-protected system directories. Placed in c:\bin\askSam was
a good decision for when Windows updated.

Just did not make a good transition to Window, worked but had formatting
issues with text.

Many programs allowed for templates (InfoSelect, Personal Knowbase,
Zoot) all come to mind. Zoot being the best of the group if you are
Windows based.

Oops, yes, forgot askSam. I never got on as well with it as with Idealist - in its heyday, the latter was just so professional (and the scripting language was spectacularly easy to use).

The concept of AskSam was spectacular. The execution, not so much. I bought a copy about 20 years ago. It was very finicky and I could never get reports to print properly. On top of that, the editor was horrid to write in. If only...

Steve Z

I was using askSam with downloads of abstracts and references from MEDLINE, downloaded on an excruciatingly slow modem.

Nutshell could also be a nice notetaking device, with colorful screens in the early MSDOS world. I believe it evolved eventually into Filemaker Pro.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

The concept of AskSam was spectacular. The execution, not so much. I
bought a copy about 20 years ago. It was very finicky and I could never
get reports to print properly. On top of that, the editor was horrid to
write in. If only...

Steve Z

I've been testing Zettlr (multi-platform, open-source, markdown-based, notes organizer) for this purpose. See Hendrik's blog post about it here: https://www.zettlr.com/post/what-is-a-zettelkasten
-- Glen
p.s. Still on my never-ending journey to find an alternative for my CT library, especially since I don't want to install Python 2.7 on my new machines.

Glen Coulthard wrote:

p.s. Still on my never-ending journey to find an alternative for my CT
library, especially since I don't want to install Python 2.7 on my new
machines.

At least on Windows, few software can rival the flexibility of ConnectedText when it comes to constructing a Zettelkasten, especially when talking about categorising an entry and linking it to other entries.

My only issue with CT is that it is Windows based and single-device based (I don't like the idea of using the USB version), as I'd prefer a cloud solution for this use.

I have toyed with the idea of moving my CT notes to DokuWiki, but it seemed too fiddly and requiring too much technical involvement in maintaining it, and too many different services and payments involved, from paying for the server to paying for a different service to back up the server etc.

My ideal is an almost purely plain text based system using markdown (though enabling the inline display of images), with the ability to do linking any part of the text to any other entry (basically a very simple wiki), to add categories, with a way to be able to see and manage the list of categories, and some way of using colour to mark up selected entries. The search function has to be top-notch. Having an alternative visualisation of the linked entries as a mindmap or a network would be a bonus. A daily readible automatic backup or export to Google Drive or Dropbox or similar would be a must.

At this point Dynalist seems to tick all of these boxes. Maybe the only thing I'd be missing is the presence of backlinks, to be able to see what entries link to a particular entry. But it's probably not too much hassle to do that manually. I haven't had a chance to try Contexted yet, but seems to be moving in the same direction.

My advice to the Contexted developers would be to check out Dynalist and see how they could improve on them by making their solution more Zettelkasten-specific.

To me having a Zettelkasten tied to a specific device or a specific operating system is on the one hand risky and awkward, as besides dealing with the risk of device failure or theft, sooner or later you'll need to move it to another device or having to deal with the software's obsolescence (CT is case in point), and on the other it is very limiting in this day and age, when one may be working in many different locations, using many different devices, and not having access to your electronic brain when you need it defeats the purpose.

I want to be able to read a physical book on my couch and reach for whatever device is lying nearby (most likely a Chromebook) and quickly add an entry or look one up, without having to boot my Windows laptop, which is in another room, or having to write in another solution and then having to remember to transfer the note later on.

Ubiquity does seem a necessity for a Zettelkasten. I’ve tried a number of things over the years. I have “The Archive”, which is nice in what it does, but alas no mobile and the hacks are too much effort. I’ve realised the increased friction in data entry usually results in no data entry. I really did like Emacs with orgmode and the Silver Searcher. This was the best for me as the silver searcher showed search results per line in however many folders and documents you searched so you could pinpoint most things.

I’ve recently moved to 50% work being on an iPad Pro and nothing comes close to being a Zettelkasten on iOS.

I’ve debated what I really need. The following would be ideal:
- Wiki links
- Tags
- Categories
- Silver Searcher like capability.
- Markdown styling

It’s the linking that is usually missing. Voodoopad was excellent, but the last two companies that purchased it just used it as a cash cow, although they’re talking about a new release in Q4 2019. Problem is the iOS app is woeful.

Devonthink could actually do it and I started using it several times, but data entry friction was too high. I flirted with Tinderbox, but no iOS, high annual cost (for me) and encourages continual tinkering (not good for CRIMPers) and continual investment in the system or you forgot how you did something.

Perhaps one day the ideal app will present itself!

Simon wrote:

I've debated what I really need. The following would be ideal:
- Wiki links
- Tags
- Categories
- Silver Searcher like capability.
- Markdown styling

I haven't fully explored it yet, but it seems to me that Dynalist would meet almost all of the above. You could use @ for tags and '# for categories, if you must distinguish between those two.

I'd agree that Dynalist is moving in the right direction. Although links between individual items is tricky (apart from tags, which work extremely well).

MadaboutDana wrote:

I'd agree that Dynalist is moving in the right direction. Although links
between individual items is tricky (apart from tags, which work
extremely well).

What do you find tricky about it?

I only played with the demo version, but I liked the simplicity of the implementation (e.g. that after typing [[ and a few extra characters it brings up suggestions of existing pages/items, and that it hides the markdown syntax once you hit enter.

Dr Andus wrote:

Simon wrote:
>I've debated what I really need. The following would be ideal:
>- Wiki links
>- Tags
>- Categories
>- Silver Searcher like capability.
>- Markdown styling

I haven't fully explored it yet, but it seems to me that Dynalist would
meet almost all of the above. You could use @ for tags and '# for
categories, if you must distinguish between those two.

Dynalist is good, but lousy for export. If you have to share (without getting people to create a Dynalist account) there is a lot of cleanup needed to the text. I’ve found this quite problematic as I need to continually edit some documents and share the update. I have to remove # and @ and reformat !(2019-0412) dates to something more acceptable and change markdown link etc. This adds a lot of friction when you have a lot of documents.

When the OP asked "Anyone using Zettelkasten?", was he/you referring to the methodology or to an application? Because I have a Zettelkasten app on my Mac machine. It was developed by Daniel Lüdecke four years ago, and I seem to remember Christian Tietze - who may also have been involved - writing about it here.

When I first downloaded it I used it frequently, but much less so in the last two or three years when I've made much greater use of DevonThink Pro Office and Tinderbox.

I don't use an ubiquitous Zettelkasten, where every topic has a zettel code, but I'm a fan of using Z-codes as robust linking between systems. I have a Z-code generator on hotkey, just a date-time stamp that I know will be unique. Now my notes, tasks, filenames, calendar, etc are littered with these Z-codes which are simply two way links. As long as I NEVER delete or change these codes as I find them, my 'links' stay good, even if I completely re-arrange one system (which usually breaks one-way links) or switch entire platforms.

Examples:
Taking notes generate a lot of action items. I just 'tag' that task within my notes with a Z-code, then add that task to my task manager with the same Z-code. Within my notes, the z-code is a signal that this particular inline task is managed within my to-do lists. Within my tasks, when I complete that one, I can search for it's original home within my notes and dive back in there to see if there is more followup tasks to be activated.

It's also a nice way to link to files and without worrying about breaking links by renaming files (except for the Zxxx part) or re-structuring directories.

It just relies on search, which is easy. Even if I completely forget the context and ecosystem of a Z-code reference, it's usually not more than 3 quick searches away. That's real handy for things you don't deal with very often. Like reviewing life insurance every year (or five, whatever). I can keep excel files and pdf scans within a file system, notes and thoughts within notes, etc and a year later the Zettel-codes tying these elements together still let me find the references. Even if I've completely changed all the platforms, locations, and hierarchies since last time I messed with it.

Of course it's kind of old school and clunky. But CRIMPers know the frustrating trade off between interconnectability and fragility of our information systems. I'm still looking for that Ferrari of a solution, but until then, plunking z-codes throughout my digital world has proven to be a very reliable daily driver.

I was not really gripped by linking in the Zetelkasten method. I appreciate that Luhmann didn't really have any option when working on card, but with advanced searches these are a moot point for me. I much prefer tags as I can tag everything with multiple tags and narrow down what I'm looking for.

If Luhmann's ZK were all his cards is mine all the data on my hard disk? He accessed it only through the linking method or memory, but I can access mine via, dates, folders, tags and searches. Plus mine contains, images, videos and other types he could never have included.

Rather than replicating a limited system restricted by technology and trying to replicate it on more advanced technology, the more imprtant lesson from Luhmann in my opinion is the ability to connect your data in some way. To this end we have much more scope than he ever had. Devonthink is a phenomenal ZK out of the box. Not only does it store all types of data, it allows you to add meta data and search for connected words. It's search is also something beyond Luhmann. He could never look through his ZK to find "term1 NEXT/8 term2" (find term1 one within 8 words of term2).

Perhaps if Luhmann had today's technology he wouldn't use his ZK?