I believe a large part of what makes GTD useful is the ability to hide what you don't need to see, while being confident that your system will bring stuff to your attention when you do need to see it. So far, 2Do is the only app I've found that does this well. A big part of that is the existence of well implemented separate start and due dates. Some other apps have this (Things 3), but it always feels like an afterthought. In 2Do this is built into the system. Especially nice is the ability to do it by duration rather than a fixed start date. So if you have a repeating task that is due every so often you can have it appear in Today exactly 5 days before it is due! Another nice way of hiding things is the ability to "pause" tasks. Have a repeating task that isn't relevant while you are on vacation? Just pause it (by adding a tag and pausing that tag) until you are ready to start using it again. The integration with Gmail is a bit clunkier than I like (requires the phone version), but it does work. I have become some accustomed to things like duration for starting tasks and the ability to pause tasks that every other task manager seems inadequate.

OmniFocus - because of its version of start dates (essential for the types of tasks I have), its flexibility and its "hinterland" of learning materials, AppleScripts and third-party inter-operative apps. Its latest UI I do not love, and I'm still waiting for it to be sync-able with OmniPlan (which seems a no-brainer to me), but in view of its other virtues, I'll be patient.

One type of task manager that I think nobody has mentioned is the type that not only lists your tasks but also schedules them in the working day. When I used Windows, there were several available (the name "Above and Beyond" rings a bell), but I have seen none for the Mac. Do they still exist?

Pagico - one way, read only from the calendar side via iCloud (I think).
DropTask - two way, read and write from the calendar side via Google Calendar.
Curio - one way, read only from the calendar size via iCloud -- syncs reminders and events on separate calendars.

Hugh wrote:

One type of task manager that I think nobody has mentioned is the type
that not only lists your tasks but also schedules them in the working
day. When I used Windows, there were several available (the name "Above
and Beyond" rings a bell), but I have seen none for the Mac. Do they
still exist?

Yes it does! I still consider going back to A&B because there is nothing like it.
The challenge for me is I like all the customer work tracking in one place with Intellect.

Hugh wrote:

One type of task manager that I think nobody has mentioned is the type
that not only lists your tasks but also schedules them in the working
day. When I used Windows, there were several available (the name "Above
and Beyond" rings a bell), but I have seen none for the Mac. Do they
still exist?

MadaboutDana wrote:

That's an interesting idea, though. An app that combined notes and tasks
without making one totally dependent on the other, but allowed
structured references etc. There are a couple of apps that allow such a
mixture on the Mac App Store; the only one that looks more or less
capable is Informant.

Toodledo might be a possibility here. A while ago they added a notes, outlines, and goals modules to their task platform. I can't speak to how well the different notes and tasks can be cross-linked as I never got along well enough with toodledo to test that out. Come to think of it I kind of miss that site, maybe it'd be fun to switch back to it for a while.

For the spirit of the thread: I currently use Todoist for personal tasks, mostly for the great outlining and easy capture. At work I'm really warming up to Microsoft ToDo, the desktop outlook integration is solid.

nathanb wrote:

Toodledo might be a possibility here. A while ago they added a notes,
outlines, and goals modules to their task platform. I can't speak to
how well the different notes and tasks can be cross-linked as I never
got along well enough with toodledo to test that out. Come to think of
it I kind of miss that site, maybe it'd be fun to switch back to it for
a while.

For the spirit of the thread: I currently use Todoist for personal
tasks, mostly for the great outlining and easy capture. At work I'm
really warming up to Microsoft ToDo, the desktop outlook integration is
solid.

I used Toodledo many years ago, but moved on. The UI is greatly in need of a major overhaul, but that does not seem to be ranking high on their new CEO's many emails of late. I thought it had great potential, but it kind of stalled out, and it does not seem to have come that far since then. I am using todoist for personal use today, and while it has a few issues, its UI is much easier on me than Toodledo's.

--Ken

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

just get this feeling there is a better option out there. (I mostly use
Dynalist right now.)

Steve, I downloaded Dynalist today and find the difference between it and Workflowy, which I've used for a long time, much vaster than I'd assumed. I'm wondering if you might elaborate on where it's falling short for you. Thanks!

Hi, Beck,

I think I gave the wrong impression about Dynalist. I love it. What I was refering to is that it doesn't have automated options the way a full-blown task manager would. Functions such as showing today's tasks, or tasks by priority (yes, you can tag the items and view them that way, but it isn't part of the structure of Dynalist as it would be with OF or Things). I fully intend to use Dynalist along side whatever other task manager I adopt. I actually use DL as a bullet journal. I paste a text file into Dynalist that parses out to be an outline of the months and days of the year, then keep bulleted notes. See this screen shot:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6cz69042azwzm0/January-2019%20-%202019%20Bullet%20Journal%20-%20Dynalist%202019-01-10%2017-50-59.png?dl=0

(If you want to try this, I'd be happy to share my text files that you can paste into DL. Send me an email to stephenjzeoli at that google mail place.) It works great. The only thing it doesn't do is make me break with my computer. So I still use a paper notebook for more personal notes.

The one function I wish Dynalist had -- and which they say they are working on -- is the ability to email items into an outline, the way you can email a task into Things and many other apps.

Steve


Beck wrote:

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
>just get this feeling there is a better option out there. (I mostly use
>Dynalist right now.)

Steve, I downloaded Dynalist today and find the difference between it
and Workflowy, which I've used for a long time, much vaster than I'd
assumed. I'm wondering if you might elaborate on where it's falling
short for you. Thanks!

I’m currently using Omnifocus again. I think its the third time I try something else e come back to it. Bafore it i was using Todoist. I like both.

Omnifocus is a joy to use. Its outlining capacties are great, Very keyboard driven, And the guys at Omni Group are Always implementing the lastest tecnologies Apple offers. The iPad app is great too. And also has a lot of keyboard shortcuts and almost all the functions of the mac version. The downside is that it is Apple only. But as i’m currently living in the Apple island, where every thing is shiny (and expensive) I can, for now, live the dream.

Todoist is universal, great web app, in fact, using todoist on a full browser is the best experience. Great integration with google calendar and other web services like IFTTT. The sync is a lot faster than with OF.

But using Todist was never as pleaseruble as using OF. I know we are talking about productivity here, so features like start dates and Perspectives and the bult in Review mode in OF are great and help me a lot.


As mentioned here, I also miss the ability to mix tasks and notes the way Bullet Journal does. The Taskspaper app allows it. It’s adorable, by the way. I’m saving some OF project templates in Taskpaper. When a I need, just copy and paste.

For reference material, I’m using a Devonthink after almost 10 years of using Evernote. Another Apple only.

GoalEnforcer Hyperfocus: visual, neat and effective.
Available for Windows, Mac, Android and iOS (and soon web based version).
http://www.goalenforcer.com/

Paul Korm wrote:

Pagico - one way, read only from the calendar side via iCloud (I think).

DropTask - two way, read and write from the calendar side via Google
Calendar.
Curio - one way, read only from the calendar size via iCloud -- syncs
reminders and events on separate calendars.

Hugh wrote:
One type of task manager that I think nobody has mentioned is the type
>that not only lists your tasks but also schedules them in the working
>day. When I used Windows, there were several available (the name "Above
>and Beyond" rings a bell), but I have seen none for the Mac. Do they
>still exist?

Many thanks, Paul. I'll certainly look at DropTask, with which I'm not familiar.

As I recall, the Windows apps that I remember (and I'm pleased to hear that Above and Beyond still exists) used some kind of simple algorithm involving priorities, duration and, probably, imminence to decide for the user when in the day tasks should be scheduled. I can imagine that some users might not have liked this, but the philosophy did seem to comply with David Allen's GTD "mind like water".

From personal experience, I don't think that Pagico or Curio have gone that far.

An application to choose the time a task should be scheduled? Sounds interesting -- I cannot think of a task manager that suggests a time for scheduling the task + actually schedules it.

A couple other apps come to mind to add to the list I posted above:

GoodTask -- a task manager built on top of the macOS Reminders and Calendar apps -- cross platform
Agenda -- more of a note taker than a task manager but calendar events can be created from the note -- the integration is only partial

Hugh wrote:

As I recall, the Windows apps that I remember (and I'm pleased to hear
that Above and Beyond still exists) used some kind of simple algorithm
involving priorities, duration and, probably, imminence to decide for
the user when in the day tasks should be scheduled. I can imagine that
some users might not have liked this, but the philosophy did seem to
comply with David Allen's GTD "mind like water".

Hugh wrote:

One type of task manager that I think nobody has mentioned is the type
that not only lists your tasks but also schedules them in the working
day. When I used Windows, there were several available (the name "Above
and Beyond" rings a bell), but I have seen none for the Mac. Do they
still exist?

I confess that I have searched somewhat obsessively for such software over the last 10 years, and I have tried just about everything. There are indeed some options available, although I find all of them lacking. I will highlight a few options on various platforms:

Windows (old software): In addition to Above & Beyond, there was TimeTo and Watership Planner.

Mac (old software): SmartDay did this, but never became sufficiently polished and was abandoned.

Project Management software: Obviously overkill, but I have used full-blown project management software for this purpose. Any software that includes "resource leveling" can be configured to automatically schedule tasks according to priority, deadlines, availability, etc. I have used Microsoft Project. On the mac, OmniPlan and Merlin Project do the trick. On the web, LiquidPlanner also does this.

Recent software:
-- Focuster has already been mentioned here. It's relatively simnple, and it lacks prioritization, but it's automatic scheduling works well.
-- JXCirrus Planner tries to be a full-blown, extremely powerful automatic task scheduling solution (including being able to give tasks a numeric priority), and it works on Windows, Mac, and iPhone. I recommend looking at it, but there do tend to be major bugs, and it isn't exactly elegant. If the bugs get worked out, it would be my first choice.
-- SkedPal is much more polished and is also cross-platform (including mobile). It's an excellent option, with a highly sophisticated approach to blocking time for different sorts of tasks. My only issues are the lack of numeric priority and the approach it takes to automatically scheduling short-duration tasks ahead of longer, higher-priority tasks, but for many people these aren't problems.

DIY approaches:
-- Another powerful solution I have found is Tinderbox, which I have configured to be a capable task manager, including with automatic priority-based scheduling, but I have stopped using it for that purpose because of the inability to sync tasks with my iPhone. I am sure InfoQube could also be used.
-- Excel can be configured to do this, but there are severe limitations.

As far as which task manager I currently use: Last year I switched to index cards, which I loved, but eventually there were too many issues with transporting cards and losing cards, so I switched back to electronic. But I have grown to appreciate the card metaphor, and I've been trying various Kanban options. Currently, I'm using Zenkit, which is quite powerful but also a bit buggy. I'm still on the lookout for better automatic scheduling options that can sync with iPhone.

Edit: Should be "JXCirrus Diary"

NotePlan is one of those infuriating apps that's actually really clever, and does that most desirable of things (keeping tasks/events and notes separate, but enabling you to link them together), but needs a lot of thought to use properly.

Its greatest virtue is simplicity. With support for basic markdown, plus the (in my view highly desirable) feature of keeping all notes and day-related task lists as separate text files in clearly marked iCloud folders, it's very open. Having thought it was a bit too simplistic, I've just discovered (to my personal embarrassment) that it allows you to keep multiple windows open on the macOS desktop (on an iPad, the iOS desktop gives you a twinned view of calendar next to apps). So you can have the list of e.g. today's tasks open next to your calendar.

Once you understand how it works, the "scheduled" function is very clever: you can schedule a task for a few days' time, but keep a link to it in your current task list. However, it would be even better to have an "upcoming" list option somewhere. You can also (see below) schedule tasks from Notes.

In particular, tags are clever, but not really explained. If you use a hashtag in Notes (useful for categorising them), you can click on the equivalent hashtag in the Calendar and it'll immediately bring up the relevant notes (but not any calendar entries with that hashtag!); conversely, you can put "at"-sign tags (@tag) in Notes and if you click on them, the relevant Calendar entries are listed (but not any notes with that particular tag). It's actually rather clever, but you have to puzzle it out. You can schedule tasks (in your Calendar) directly from Notes, but there's no reciprocal relationship - if you mark the task as completed in your Calendar, it won't automatically be marked as complete in the related note. However, using "at"-tags you can relate tasks to notes very precisely, regardless of the date of the task. And vice versa using [[note links]] in tasks. To expand on that a little: links to notes can be created using the classic [[name of note]] syntax. So in principle it's easy to create simple task entries in your task list, then keep an extensive linked note on each task.

Everything is supported by keyboard shortcuts, which is cool. I'd love to see more direct organisation (such as note folders, for example), but I can kind of see why the developer has avoided complicating the app in this way. It integrates Apple Calendar and Reminders in any case, which is a nice feature.

Sorry, I'm meandering a bit here. In short: NotePlan is a very interesting, highly streamlined take on a task manager with calendar that also supports notes (as many as you like).

I switched to Emacs last year, and got sufficiently proficient at navigating around in Org mode. I love that my project notes can contain the todos, and that todos can contain extensive notes, without cluttering the rest. Just fold it all way, like in an outliner. Bam!

I still have a ton of old stuff in OmniFocus, which is a great app. But I cannot go back now that I experienced Emacs. Sheesh.



Arnold wrote:

I must be an outsider.

EMACS orgmode for the last few years, prior to that it was Ecco Pro
followed by Time and Chaos on Windows.

MadaboutDana wrote:

NotePlan is one of those infuriating apps that's actually really clever,
and does that most desirable of things (keeping tasks/events and notes
separate, but enabling you to link them together), but needs a lot of
thought to use properly.

Very interesting! MadaboutDana, do you use it exclusively to manage your tasks? Did you play with it to learn these things or was there a source you found particularly helpful? Also, have you consider (or have you already) recorded some of these use cases to share?

Thanks,
Beck

MadaboutDana wrote:

NotePlan is one of those infuriating apps that's actually really clever,
and does that most desirable of things (keeping tasks/events and notes
separate, but enabling you to link them together), but needs a lot of
thought to use properly.

It *is* clever, but for my needs it's half-baked. It's all well and good to pull in calendar events from Apple Calendar but I need two-way sync because I am in my calendar (which has a different, more focused design for my needs) much more than a notetaking app with some calendar-view functionality. I want my calendar to be the hub in which I can see calendar events made in my notetaking app and be able to edit/move them and have the changes reflected in the notetaking app. This is what I do with Todoist (which offers 2-way sync with Google Calendar), although I don't use Todoist for long notes, for which it is unsuited.

So while NotePlan has nice features I wouldn't use most of them, so the app has few advantages over my current notes app(s).

Ultimately, I think if I update my own note-taking to integrate with a calendar I'll end up with an app that allows for a Zapier integration with Google Calendar.

There's an "updated" macOS / iOS version of the old OS X "Opus Domini" app -- now renamed Opus One -- that integrates calendar and note-taking into a single app. The update seems to be making most features into a subscription. At least, there's a one-month subscription at a low enough price to allow experimentation. The interface is horribly skeuomorphic -- to the point of distraction.

Sorry, Beck, only just seen this: I've been experimenting extensively with NotePlan, but have discovered some very irritating discrepancies between the iOS and macOS versions (not least the lack of reciprocity between to-dos scheduled from Notes in macOS vs. the reciprocity available in iOS for iPad - but not on iPhone!). I've not found any useful sources, so all my discoveries are spontaneous. Not sure what to make of NotePlan, in truth - it's just not quite developed enough, although the iOS version is much more refined than the macOS one.

I'm now examining Agenda (iOS, macOS) with the same issues in mind. It's got shortcomings (notably a lack of folders/hierarchy, odd behaviour when using "due" tags), but also some impressive strengths. But it does appear to be more consistent across platforms than NotePlan. And you can link notes to any other notes. You can assign dates to notes - but also, and this isn't so widely known, assign due dates to any individual item (= paragraph, piece of text, list item) in a note. You can also pin and star items.

It's just started supporting attachments, but doesn't yet support multiple windows (definitely a fairly major shortcoming, although they're working on it, since it's by far one of the biggest user requests). It does now support Markdown as well as rich text.

There is a great deal to admire about Agenda, starting with its unique approach to date-oriented information management. The iOS app is very well designed to follow the functionality of the Mac version, but make good use of what iPads are good at. I also like the innovative "subscription" model the developers use, which protects purchasers, but also provides incentive for continued improvement.

But its category/project organization scheme feels too limited to me to be a full-blown note manager. I have tried thinking the notes in a project as a timeline (like the original Evernote, for those of you who remember that). But I am too used to thinking in folder structure. If "projects" were instead folders that could be nested, Agenda would probably become one of my main tools. Instead, I use it on a limited basis for certain tasks it is good at. I will always keep my subscription current, however, because I enjoy watching the Agenda team evolve the app, and maybe it will get to the point where it better fits my way of working.

Steve Z.

MadaboutDana wrote:

I'm now examining Agenda (iOS, macOS) with the same issues in mind. It's
got shortcomings (notably a lack of folders/hierarchy, odd behaviour
when using "due" tags), but also some impressive strengths. But it does
appear to be more consistent across platforms than NotePlan. And you can
link notes to any other notes. You can assign dates to notes - but also,
and this isn't so widely known, assign due dates to any individual item
(= paragraph, piece of text, list item) in a note. You can also pin and
star items.

It's just started supporting attachments, but doesn't yet support
multiple windows (definitely a fairly major shortcoming, although
they're working on it, since it's by far one of the biggest user
requests). It does now support Markdown as well as rich text.

Agenda has three other dimensions you can use in addition to category and project: stars, people and tags. In conjunction with date search ("tomorrow"), search across all projects, and saved searches, there's quite a bit of flexibility. It seems that Agenda's organization philosophy is to provide limited fixed-hierarchy methods alongside various metadata options (though not custom metadata) and then let the user use the discovery tools in search, search within searches, etc. It can take a while to learn to work within an app that eschews a lot of hierarchy but provides on-the-fly and saved-searching features instead.

I recommend using the beta version of Agenda -- 4.1(60) is the current beta on macOS -- since it is has improved speed and some other nice features.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

But its category/project organization scheme feels too limited to me to
be a full-blown note manager.

Lucas wrote:

Hugh wrote:
One type of task manager that I think nobody has mentioned is the type
>that not only lists your tasks but also schedules them in the working
>day. When I used Windows, there were several available (the name "Above
>and Beyond" rings a bell), but I have seen none for the Mac. Do they
>still exist?

I confess that I have searched somewhat obsessively for such software
over the last 10 years, and I have tried just about everything. There
are indeed some options available, although I find all of them lacking.
I will highlight a few options on various platforms:

Windows (old software): In addition to Above & Beyond, there was TimeTo
and Watership Planner.

Mac (old software): SmartDay did this, but never became sufficiently
polished and was abandoned.

Project Management software: Obviously overkill, but I have used
full-blown project management software for this purpose. Any software
that includes "resource leveling" can be configured to automatically
schedule tasks according to priority, deadlines, availability, etc. I
have used Microsoft Project. On the mac, OmniPlan and Merlin Project do
the trick. On the web, LiquidPlanner also does this.

Recent software:
-- Focuster has already been mentioned here. It's relatively simnple,
and it lacks prioritization, but it's automatic scheduling works well.
-- JXCirrus Planner tries to be a full-blown, extremely powerful
automatic task scheduling solution (including being able to give tasks a
numeric priority), and it works on Windows, Mac, and iPhone. I recommend
looking at it, but there do tend to be major bugs, and it isn't exactly
elegant. If the bugs get worked out, it would be my first choice.
-- SkedPal is much more polished and is also cross-platform (including
mobile). It's an excellent option, with a highly sophisticated approach
to blocking time for different sorts of tasks. My only issues are the
lack of numeric priority and the approach it takes to automatically
scheduling short-duration tasks ahead of longer, higher-priority tasks,
but for many people these aren't problems.

DIY approaches:
-- Another powerful solution I have found is Tinderbox, which I have
configured to be a capable task manager, including with automatic
priority-based scheduling, but I have stopped using it for that purpose
because of the inability to sync tasks with my iPhone. I am sure
InfoQube could also be used.
-- Excel can be configured to do this, but there are severe limitations.

As far as which task manager I currently use: Last year I switched to
index cards, which I loved, but eventually there were too many issues
with transporting cards and losing cards, so I switched back to
electronic. But I have grown to appreciate the card metaphor, and I've
been trying various Kanban options. Currently, I'm using Zenkit, which
is quite powerful but also a bit buggy. I'm still on the lookout for
better automatic scheduling options that can sync with iPhone.

Many thanks, Lucas. I'm exploring a number of these suggestions (which it's good to see still exist, at least a dozen years since I first looked at them).

I agree with Steve that Agenda isn't a true notes manager (like my ongoing fave, Notebooks); but increasingly, I'm using it as a task management app precisely because you can manage tasks and notes separately.

As Paul mentions, it's got a number of clever features for differentiating/categorising notes; it also supports links between notes, which (again) is ideal for task management purposes. For example, I have various projects under "Business" and "Home" categories, plus attached notes under "Business Notes" and "Home Notes" (that's an example; in reality, my taxonomy is a little more complex). Once I've completed a project, I drag and drop it into a related archive (e.g. "Business Archive"); this may include the note, but on the other hand, if the note is more broadly applicable, I may leave it where it is under "Business Notes".

This, it seems to me, is how a task manager should really work. NotePlan is also capable of this, of course, but the taxonomies available in NotePlan are very simplistic (dates and tags are there, but very little else; IMHO the ability to link notes doesn't really make up for this excessive simplicity).

Cheers!
Bill