Sorry, long topic title. I was thinking about which of my "favorite" outliner apps I would give up if something better came along. Unfortunately "favorite" doesn't necessarily mean good or great, it just means the app fills a niche and so I use it.

Among these, I count OmniOutliner, Outlinely, DynaList, iThoughts (sort of an outliner), and Tinderbox. I keep all five in play because of one or two key features the others do not have.

I think the first three are in the category of "dump it if something better appears", and it is more likely that something better than any of the three *will* appear. The last two, I probably wouldn't dump. I'm sure I'll never get rid of Tinderbox -- because I've used it for a long time, know how to wrassle it pretty well, and enjoy working with it.

Anyway, interesting mental exercise. What about you?

Well my big issue is the lack of a strong iOS client paired with an equally strong desktop app. I currently use Dynalist, but for some reason they've struggled for a long time to make an iOS app which doesn't regularly freeze. And even if it didn't freeze regularly, they still have a long way to go to match a native experience on iOS. Mubu does well, but it stores its data on servers in China, which I don't feel comfortable with. Outlinely has a nice iOS experience, but the development is uneven and the desktop experience still buggy. Workflowy is nice, but has fallen behind Dynalist in features and the iOS experience is still not great (although better than Dyanlist). So if anyone can make something that works good on iOS and comes close on the desktop, I'd gladly switch. I joined this forum looking for such an app, and still haven't found what I'm looking for...

PS: I'm aware of the other options, like OO, but am not interested in them. I really want a workflowy-like outliner.

Luhmann wrote:

Well my big issue is the lack of a strong iOS client paired with an
equally strong desktop app. I currently use Dynalist, but for some
reason they've struggled for a long time to make an iOS app which
doesn't regularly freeze. And even if it didn't freeze regularly, they
still have a long way to go to match a native experience on iOS. Mubu
does well, but it stores its data on servers in China, which I don't
feel comfortable with. Outlinely has a nice iOS experience, but the
development is uneven and the desktop experience still buggy. Workflowy
is nice, but has fallen behind Dynalist in features and the iOS
experience is still not great (although better than Dyanlist). So if
anyone can make something that works good on iOS and comes close on the
desktop, I'd gladly switch. I joined this forum looking for such an app,
and still haven't found what I'm looking for...

PS: I'm aware of the other options, like OO, but am not interested in
them. I really want a workflowy-like outliner.

I've only ever really used OO and I love it. But I'm intrigued by this concept of outliner-as-more-than-an-outline, which OO doesn't focus on.

I've downloaded Dynalist and Outlinely to try them out. Tried Workflowy but too minimalist for me.

Paul Korm wrote:

I think the first three are in the category of "dump it if something
better appears", and it is more likely that something better than any of
the three *will* appear. The last two, I probably wouldn't dump. I'm
sure I'll never get rid of Tinderbox -- because I've used it for a long
time, know how to wrassle it pretty well, and enjoy working with it.

Anyway, interesting mental exercise. What about you?

I am actually very inclined to dump Tinderbox.

Thinking hard about TB, the time I spent tinkering with it greatly exceeds the time I spend using it. It is a huge time sink. The tinkering is killing my productivity. I cannot remember the time I said: "wow, I would have never discovered this if not for TB".

Searching the forums to find a script(OnADD) to accomplish a task bored me to death. And, also have to export the notes to make them available to Spotlight (Foxtrot) is a hectic process.

I am also learning that the whole mentality of "managing information" is misguided. Considering myself primarily as a writer (in the way argued by Patricia Goodson) is much helpful mentality for productivity. We can collect and organize information all our lives without making relevant progress.

I am moving to Scrivener and Scapple combo.

JakeBernsteinWA wrote:

I've only ever really used OO and I love it. But I'm intrigued by this
concept of outliner-as-more-than-an-outline, which OO doesn't focus on.

For me OO just doesn't work right as an outliner. I've tried it many times, but I can never get used to it. I don't need any of the fancy spreadsheet or styling features it offers. I've tried OO Essentials, but it still rubs me the wrong way. I really, really, wish I could use it, because it does seem to be one of the only options with a decent iOS app that works similarly to the desktop - but after using Workflowy/Dynalist/Outlinely/Mubu, it just drives me up the wall... Not because the others do anything "more than an outline" but because they do outlining well. The entire user interface gets out of my way, but with OO I feel like nearly every UX decision they made was wrong. (And I felt this way before Workflowy came along, when I used to use OO as my main outliner.)

Luhmann wrote:

For me OO just doesn't work right as an outliner. I've tried it many
times, but I can never get used to it. I don't need any of the fancy
spreadsheet or styling features it offers. I've tried OO Essentials, but
it still rubs me the wrong way. I really, really, wish I could use it,
because it does seem to be one of the only options with a decent iOS app
that works similarly to the desktop - but after using
Workflowy/Dynalist/Outlinely/Mubu, it just drives me up the wall...

I'm using OO Essentials right now, and I agree with you. The deliberately restricted choice of styles/fonts/sizes are designed to migrate you to the full version. I don't need any of the extra columns or audio recording or notes in panes, but the style restrictions may just cause me to pay them the extra $40 just to choose my own fonts and sizes.

Assuming I decide to keep using it.

Problem is, I haven't found anything decidedly better for my purposes. And it's convenient enough to export the OPML to MindNode when needed, or to the iOS free version, so I may just be sticking (and stuck) with it for now. And I do like having my data sit on just my machines, and over the years the free Omni Sync Server has proven itself.

Dynalist seems like a reasonable alternative but its limitations hold me back, and the relatively outrageous pricing (its $96/year subscription pricing is double Omni's iOS/Mac upgrade purchase pricing, and at the end of the day you own your Omni apps) is a deal-killer.

Checkvist seems to be a serious competitor to Dynalist, and is only $39/yr, but it lags seriously in fonts/themes, and has no native mobile or desktop apps - a purposeful design decision that allows them to roll out changes quickly, but has obvious limitations as well.

The simple answer to the question posed in the topic title is, all of them. In fact, my whole CRIMPing world is based on finding a better outliner. Each of the common ones (for Mac), has its advantages... but also its disadvantages. The one I use most often is Dynalist, because it has enough features to be useful, it is really easy to use, and I can use it on a PC as well as my MacBook. Its disadvantages: 1. Cloud based. 2. Poor iOS implementation. 3. Less than satisfactory export options.

Tinderbox is a great outliner, but it is an island, restricted to MacOS.

OmniOutliner is powerful, but it feels more like a place to make good looking outlines, rather than real working ones. I use it when I need to create something for public consumption, like this:

https://mountindependence.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/2018-event-schedule.pdf

To become a "favorite" of mine, an outliner must have three features (other people, of course, will have different ideas of what a favorite makes):

- easy and intuitive to use (if I can't launch the software and begin outlining immediately, without having to consult a knowledge base or a "quick-start" guide, then already it's created friction between me and getting done what I want to get done);

- cross-platform (many good outliners are Mac-only because their developers lack the technical skills or business sense or gumption to make their products available to larger markets - same applies to Windows-centric developers); and

- robust export options (plain text and Word at a minimum).

Dynalist ticks the first two of these three boxes. You *can* "export" a Dynalist outline to plain text, but the mechanism for doing so sucks: it's glorified copy and paste. You can download outlines as HTML or OPML, but those formats aren't useful to me (at least not for the work I do in Dynalist), and the copy-and-paste "formatted text" feature is a poor man's way to get the content into Word.

So, if a "super" Dynalist came along, with a proper export feature, I'd give up Dynalist.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

OmniOutliner is powerful, but it feels more like a place to make good
looking outlines, rather than real working ones.

That's curious to me. I've been making working text outlines on my Mac since 1986, starting with Acta (now a free download from a-sharp.com for pre macOS 10.4 machines) and I worked with it the same way I do today with OmniOutliner Essentials. Indeed, I've imported from OPML and edited 2-decade-old, thousand-item outlines without any problems. Since I almost never print them or make pdfs the only good looks that have mattered to me have been the UI and how the outlines look in terms of font/size and page background while in use.

For you what features would make OO a good place to make working outlines?

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

OmniOutliner is powerful, but it feels more like a place to make good
looking outlines, rather than real working ones. I use it when I need to
create something for public consumption...

I do agree with you, Steve, that Omni Group seems to spend too much effort on enhancing the prettifying ability of OO and too little on upgrading its outlining capabilities (for example, clones, please). However, as I've mentioned here previously, OO does have the advantage over many potential rivals which have come and gone over the years that, judging from the Omni Group track record, it's likely to be around for a good while yet.

So I decided to go with Outlinely because I simply cannot stand the non-nativeness of Dynalist. Plus, Outlinely got updated recently and it already works fine for me. I will be using Outlinely and OO on a regular basis because for me, they serve different purposes. I use OO with columns quite a bit in my daily work (it's my time sheet, for one) but it's different from Outlinely because it's not really a "note taking app" due to its use of discrete files rather than a quick-searchable database like Outlinely or Dynalist.

I use Tinderbox a fair amount, but usually for specific "thinking exercises" or organizing a lot of information about one topic (I have a "Security & Privacy.tbx" file that holds everything I know about GDPR, for example).

I'm curious to see if Outlinely can replace the many, many note taking apps I have but am never satisfied with (i.e. Bear and its ilk).

Replying to myself...I regret not looking closer at Dynalist. I just wish it had a better iOS experience.

This is, of course, very subjective. I just don't find it as handy for building outlines and plans. Just as an example, you have to type three keys to zoom in on a topic: command, shift and F, which require you to be pretty dextrous with your left hand, or be good at using the command and shift keys with your right hand, while pressing the F with your left. Dynalist by contrast just requires the command key and the close bracket key, or simply click on the bullet.

Also, Essentials might feel more nimble, since a lot of the fancy stuff is stripped away.

satis wrote:

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
>
>OmniOutliner is powerful, but it feels more like a place to make good
>looking outlines, rather than real working ones.

That's curious to me. I've been making working text outlines on my Mac
since 1986, starting with Acta (now a free download from a-sharp.com for
pre macOS 10.4 machines) and I worked with it the same way I do today
with OmniOutliner Essentials. Indeed, I've imported from OPML and edited
2-decade-old, thousand-item outlines without any problems. Since I
almost never print them or make pdfs the only good looks that have
mattered to me have been the UI and how the outlines look in terms of
font/size and page background while in use.

For you what features would make OO a good place to make working
outlines?

Is this OmniOutliner you're talking about, or OmniFocus? I know that Shift-Command-F is for 'Focusing' in OF

https://support.omnigroup.com/documentation/omnifocus/mac/2.8/en/focusing/

but I've never 'zoomed' in OO (Elements).

satis wrote:

but I've never 'zoomed' in OO (Elements).

Ah, nevermind. That's because OO Elements doesn't have that feature!

https://support.omnigroup.com/documentation/omnioutliner/mac/4.5.3/en/using-the-sidebar/

I use OO5 because I need the custom columns, and for things that need to be exported with styling (as mentioned by Steve -- very nice example he posted, by the way). Of course Word or Pages can do those tasks better for anything that doesn't need folding. Every time I buy something from OmniGroup I usually get to the point of "why did I do that"? Other than being possessed by CRIMPing, I usually don't have a good answer :-)

I thought the example was instructive too. But it was also instructive to showing the method behind Omni's madness - that keyboard-command was the same across multiple Omni apps. If I were a user of OmniFocus and OmniOutliner I'd probably be absolutely delighted by the harmonization of the key-commands.