After one year of no news, outlinely got a minor compatibility update last week. Glad to know it isn’t dead, even though I still see no reason to pay for a subscription...

So frustrating! Such a nearly great app!

But I'm encouraged by the update - notably that they appear to have unified the codebase (under Swift). That suggests they have Plans... maybe even a Roadmap!!!

For a subscriber, that's good news.

MadaboutDana wrote:

So frustrating! Such a nearly great app!

But I'm encouraged by the update - notably that they appear to have
unified the codebase (under Swift). That suggests they have Plans...
maybe even a Roadmap!!!

For a subscriber, that's good news.

Hey MadaboutDana,

I agree in total. It's good news.

But...

You also summarized—in one single word—all the thoughts, feelings, and angst I've ever had about Outlinely:

"Nearly..."

It's just... "Nearly there."

"Nearly..."

Sigh... We got really close with that one.


Argh. It's driven me nuts since I originally purchased the thing.

On one hand, it's the only desktop Mac app available which can fold text in a rich environment while looking halfway decent.

But...

but But BUT!...

It's like that fake-wood-vinyll IKEA puts on all their desks: it looks great when standing 10 feet away but, upon further inspection, after you really dive in and start to use it... well, it starts to fall apart.

A whole lot of chips, dings ’n scratches… they all start popping up like wildfire. And before you know it: you’re getting upset—spending more time thinking about the problems you're looking at with the tool your using then actually working.

When I originally saw Outlinely (for the very first time), I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.

All I've ever wanted was a carbon copy of Ulysses that:

A.) can fold text, and;
B.) Can display different text sizes within the editor, and... NOT limit my eyes to viewing all text at the same font size.

And that's what it looked like. At first...

However, after using it for a while and realizing "no, just because you want a feature to be implemented doesn't mean it'll ever magically pop up," I quit.

I quit and just went back to using ulysses (and continued staring at that massive wall of same-sized text).

I’m a sucker for “prettiness,” and in my book: Ulysses takes the cake in the UI/UX department. (And I hate subscriptions)

I also love notebooks. I wish the UI/UX was more like Ulysses but, sweet baby Jesus, it's a rich text editor that doesn't look anything like word (that can do all kinds of folding). Plus, Alfons, the developer: he’s a really cool guy. I can't wait until he releases V2 of the Mac app.


(p.s. Yep. It's my first post. I really love this place! Everyone here seems to be just as obsessed as I about text folding and the lack of apps that offer it! Lol.)

I see they just updated the Mac app today, after 9 months of crickets chirping. Not much to the update, unfortunately:

- Export PDF dialog (access from File > Export): PDF outputs can be customized with many customization options.
- Multi-level numbering: Auto generate multiple-level numbering (such as 1.a.b..) when entering a new line.
- Fix: Printing results in a blank page.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/outlinely-outline-notes/id843692954

Hi Smithers, welcome as a posting member to the forum!

Ah yes, prettiness - the source of so much CRIMPing activity. That's why sad people like me have Agenda on their Macs and iOS devices, despite the fact that we use other things to manage our day-to-day workflows. That's why Ulysses has such a following, despite the fact that it hasn't made substantial progress for about a year now (sorry; I don't regard coloured tags as substantial progress; where's the folding, that's what I want to know).

Outlinely was my Great Hope, too, but the developers (or maybe just developer) have a very weird approach. They start promoting a new product with fantastic enthusiasm, including blog posts and all sorts; then, a few months afterwards, maybe a couple of updates... before the blog disappears and the updates stop coming.

However: let us hope that this unexpected burst of activity is the prelude to Greater Things!

Right?!

"Where's the folding..."

I know your pain.

Lol, I think you and I are going to get along.

With ulysses... folding: sadly, it just ain't in the cards... ever. They dont like the idea.

Actually, I'm convinced: they hate it.

Talk about sad. It's sad that I took the time to actually "know"—for a fact—that they do indeed hate the idea of folding(I was curious if it would happen in 20 years). It took me around an hour to find it a ways back but, there's a twitter thing where Max says something along those lines. And that hour is now gone.

Actually, some folding-ish features are possible within the app. You can style the Annotation tag inside the markdown preferences to look like your text. Click on it, then a way-too-small box pops down and... sigh, there's space to put text. It's not "folding" per say; being more of a "pop-down" action; but still, it's something.

Why am I defending them?!

I'm right there with ya. Coloured tags are NOT anything. It's a B.S. excuse for their subscription model.

Now I don't really know this but, I don't think it's that hard to MAINTAIN an app as apple periodically pushes out new updates. Isn't it just pushing a button? It's not that hard. (I know it's harder than that but seriously, maintaining an app? Come on! Features! That's what I want. New, easily traceable stuff that I — an average, angry, ulysses user—can see as I use and experience the consarnit app.)

And I don't care about "bug-fixes!" I keep seeing these "bug-fixes" inside of the app store when ulysses rolls out another "massive" update. What are all of these bugs? Let me tell ya, I've got some bugs. They need a fix'n too. But they don't like fixing my bugs. My bugs don't seem to matter. The only "bug" I've got in Ulysses has never been fixed! I keep clicking on the text, expecting it to fold and... well, it still doesn't fold. I keep clicking it. No folding occurs! I contact them monthly about this. They're very polite. Nothing ever happens though.

Lol.

Honestly, I've thought about just hiring a developer and saying, "STEP 1: Just build me an IDENTICAL copy of Ulysses. Then, after we have a freaking copy of ulysses in Xcode, move on to STEP 2:

- Folding.
- Text sizes.
- A big purple option box inside the preferences pane that say's "hide all that ugly, stupid, final-product-obscurring markdown syntax!"
- Multiple text types in a document.
- Non-Marxist formatting options.
- Inline images that dont suck!
- And... Folding."

(cough!) Mr. developer man, can ya do that please?

I'm sure he'd say, "Sure! That'll be $57,000 dollars please."

I'm real close though... Really close. If all I get after another year of subscriptions is a half arsed new feature like coloured tags, I'm going to do it.

Lol.

I love this place.


P.S. I like agenda as well. I'm just waiting for a dark mode.

Ulysses went subscription 10 months ago and has actually done quite a bit in that time. When switching to subscription they rationalized versions to v.11. Since then the devs added image previews to iOS app (matching the Mac app), revamped the iOS UI, added drag-and-drop to iOS, added iOS sheet list swipe actions for keywords & favorites, merged file sources in the Library column, added iPad multi-pane editing, optimized for iPhone X, added new editor themes, improved search/replace, added localizations for Russian, Korean, Portuguese and other languages, made the syntax highlighting much smarter, added daily writing goals & deadlines and paragraph-spanning code blocks, cleaned up epub export, and added a ton of bug fixes.

(And I didn't even mention color tags, lol.)

Smithers wrote:

- Folding.
- Text sizes.
- A big purple option box inside the preferences pane that say's "hide
all that ugly, stupid, final-product-obscurring markdown syntax!"
- Multiple text types in a document.
- Non-Marxist formatting options.
- Inline images that dont suck!
- And... Folding."

(cough!) Mr. developer man, can ya do that please?

Not just to show that I read most long posts and have a literal inclination - but what's a "non-Marxist" formatting option? Or if you prefer, what's a Marxist formatting option? Just interested. (BTW, welcome.)

satis wrote:

Ulysses went subscription 10 months ago and has actually done quite a
bit in that time. When switching to subscription they rationalized
versions to v.11. Since then the devs added image previews to iOS app
(matching the Mac app), revamped the iOS UI, added drag-and-drop to iOS,
added iOS sheet list swipe actions for keywords & favorites, merged file
sources in the Library column, added iPad multi-pane editing, optimized
for iPhone X, added new editor themes, improved search/replace, added
localizations for Russian, Korean, Portuguese and other languages, made
the syntax highlighting much smarter, added daily writing goals &
deadlines and paragraph-spanning code blocks, cleaned up epub export,
and added a ton of bug fixes.

(And I didn't even mention color tags, lol.)

Hey Satis,

Well, it looks as though I stand corrected.

“And a tip of the hat to you sir."

All I can say is: " da*n, you’re right.”

I was just whining. Lol.

The new code blocks are really nice too.

I wish they’d spend the same amount of time making other elements within the editor more visually distinct.

Stuff like making the headers look like headers; or giving the user the option to do so..

That’s a big gripe of mine.

Headers should— no matter where they’re written — always be more distinct than the body copy under the header. That is, to say IF!... The final destination of the header will render the text within said header larger than the text below it. (As it usually is.)

See, there I go again. I’m whining.

I just don’t like having the editor and final product look different.

Hugh wrote:

Not just to show that I read most long posts and have a literal
inclination - but what's a "non-Marxist" formatting option? Or if you
prefer, what's a Marxist formatting option? Just interested. (BTW,
welcome.)

Hey Hugh,

Glad to be here.

Lol. I got a tad carried away there.

Firstly, I should have clarified: i’ve got nothing against Carl or marxism.

What I meant by Marxist formatting options is: limiting my ability to do something for the sake of... Limiting my ability to do something. (Marxist may not be the right word here. At the time though, it sounded best.)

Now.

I totally get their mantra. Tyrannically enforcing a “simplicity at costs” coda is something I really respect. It’s the entire reason ulysses itself is a great app.

Everyone can’t get what they want. I get it: you can’t give the user the ability to do everything.

But...

When you do indeed decide to give the user the ability to DO something through some kind of feature...

That “thing” you’re about to let the user do better not be a half arsed attempt at letting the user do it. It should cover all the bases, be thoroughly thought out, and let the user do what he wants to do!

Again, IF! — as the app developer— you’ve decided to let the user do it.

Hazaa!

For example: the notes pane on the far right. What. The. Hell is going on in there?

In Ulysses, within the far right notes pane, it’s as if civilization is falling down all around me. It’s absolute insanity.

When you write something in that section and decide to make it bold does it become bold? Does the font-weight become thicker?

It does not. “NOT’ i say. It turns yellow(on iOS) and blue(on desktop), as does underlining and italicizing.

That’s right folks! Within the notes pane, bold, italics, and underlines are all just blue and yellow. It’s like another universe over there— the Magical-Ulysses-Land where bold, underlines, and italics now all mean the same thing, and are yellow and blue. How is anyone supposed to know what the heck is going on in there? It’s madness! Pure pandemonium!

I need a field guid just to navigate it.

And I... I have no field guide. Not do i. Want s field guide.

Now code blocks on the other hand... They love code blocks. In the notes pane when I make a code block, it displays as a pretty code block—just like it does in the main editor... but smaller.

Cool! They still make it blue, but... well, ok! I can live with that. I don’t know why they like blue and yellow but, at least it looks like a code block.

Blue code blocks... A-ok in my book.

But, don’t ya see: they’re a’ pick’n and a’ choose’n here.

They like code blocks more than they do bold, underlines, and italics. They’re redistributing assets, wealth, and development time on a more “important” feature.

In-con-sistencies!

I’m sure they’ve got a reason for trying to change the world’s definition of bold, italics, and underlining to blue and yellow. I bet it’s good. Seriously. Markus and Max are pretty smart dudes and put a hell of a lot of thought into every single decision they make.

But...

I don’t know what happened or who they talked to to make them feel this way but... it’s pretty obvious: they don’t like bold, italic, and underlined formatting.

Every time I open it up it’s like I’m being blasted by a decree from the Premier, "Comrades, be advised, you have entered the blue and yellow zone. For the good of mankind, from this moment forth, within this section all bold, underlined, and italicized text shall be blue or yellow and in no way shape or form appear as it does within the primary editor!”

Am I alone here?

Sorry Hugh, I kinda went on a bit there.

P.s. the In-line image previews are also a mess. For some reason they don’t like these either. On iOS I don’t get to see them at the same scale as I do on desktop. They’re always smaller on iOS. You can only increase the number of preview lines to a 6 whereas on desktop it’s a 12 (I think)

Again, i’m Sure there’s a reason for it. Knowing them, it’s probably a really amazing one. However it makes no sense in my logic center. If I get inline images, I want to see the images. Not part. Not some. But full size. It’s an image after all.

Still a gorgeous app though.

I’m just complaining.

Smithers wrote:

I just don’t like having the editor and final product look
different.

I get it.

I love the customizability of Ulysses - I've spent far too much time tinkering with the look to be honest - and I don't mind the incomplete WYSIWYG experience (I've spent decades in BBEdit before this), but there are enough niggles for me to be less than fully satisfied. One major disgruntlement: there are times when I want to attach a note to a paragraph but the notes implementation is for an entire sheet, so I end up filling my documents with non-printing inline comments that have uniquely coded 'tags' for easier search. It's a messy-looking kludge, and I'd rather be able to have notes attachable to words, paragraphs or even attachments. And the whole Styles export is terrible (and I'm glad I don't need to use it), with no obvious info on what a style offers (eg font/size/formatting) other than trying it (and remembering later), no way to customize it, and no easy way to create your own styles. Unfortunately, it's hard to know what's being prioritized in terms of features and fixes (I love that Dynalist has a Trello board showing you and letting you vote).

So, I'm mostly satisfied but still not really settled in with the app. If I needed to I could switch to another app I own, be it IA Writer, BBEdit, or Nisus Writer Pro, or even Pages. But Ulysses gets so much right that I don't mind, for now at least, living inside it for most of my writing.

I feel that unsatisfied with every single writing app I use, each for different reasons. I use Day One multiple times a day, on both Mac and iOS, but I hate not being able to use my own fonts (and tint my background), and hate that nice iOS features like 'On This Day' aren't in the Mac app, and the primitive, insufficient search is irritating. I enjoy IA Writer considerably, but not the restricted font/size/background choices or the inability to move folders in the Document Library. Scrivener is powerful and flexible but incredibly opaque and labyrinthine (just look at the books and sites and video training courses for it) and it's the type of app I tend to come to hate because if you get away from it for a few weeks you come back and have to relearn odd, specific procedures and tricks. (One reason I don't use a text expander.)

Well, I've been taking a good look at Outlinely recently, as I reassess my various Apple subscriptions.

And I have to say, I reckon it still knocks Workflowy and Dynalist into a cocked hat - as long as you don't create too many outlines (at which point Outlinely slightly frustrating lack of rearrangeable structure becomes an issue!). But use just a few outlines, and the true power of Outlinely (including its excellent tag filtering, as well as the general filter and navigation filter, not to mention the search function) becomes apparent. It's also quite configurable.

It's got many more features than either of the above, and the sync facility is, as it happens, on a par with those of Ulysses or Bear. I've been playing with Diarly recently (as mentioned elsewhere), and although the lovely developer of the latter has made some great changes (the search function now highlights all search terms inside notes!), syncing is a wee bit hit and miss. Outlinely is fast and generally accurate.

So it's staying on my subscriptions list for now. I think I'll send an encouraging e-mail to Glam Development.

Now to take an objective look at Ulysses, by far the most expensive of my subs at the moment... I love it, but is it worth it (especially in view of Bear, Outlinely, MWeb)?

Cheers!
Bill

MadaboutDana wrote:

Now to take an objective look at Ulysses, by far the most expensive of
my subs at the moment... I love it, but is it worth it (especially in
view of Bear, Outlinely, MWeb)?

Bill, are you aware of a "stay with us" offer for long-time supporters? It's 25% off the annual subscription? The offer expires Juli 31 (and won't come back, they said).

Thanks for that, Franz. Hm, didn't realise they were offering another discount. I'll take a look before it's too late!

Cheers,
Bill

I have to say, although I love having a native iOS app, there are so many little things in Outlinely that don't work right or don't work as expected that I just find it frustrating. Small example: toggling a list item from a bullet list to a task and back again gives you a bullet list PLUS a task, not just a bullet list. Bear does this right. It is only one small example, but it shows why Bear is justifiably at the top of the App store and Outlinely is not. There is just a lack of attention to detail like this throughout the whole app. Another example: hitting backspace after an item with a note puts the cursor in the note, not the previous item. Most other outliners all get this right... I really want to like Outlinely, and when I was a subscriber I wrote a lot of feedback about such small issues so I know the developer is aware of them... I'll wait and see if they ever get cleared up.

Yes, I see what you mean. I suppose it's a matter of how inconvenient you find it - I only use the Markdown format in Outlinely, because I've found it's more flexible than the rich-text format, and making quick changes there is easy enough. Personally, I don't mind backspacing into notes, either - but that's a personal preference. It does need a lot of tweaking, and being a subscription-based app, should be receiving tweaks on a more regular basis than is actually happening; but I have to say I still regard it as a great example of the true outliner.

Outlinely is frustratingly close to being excellent, but like Luhmann, I just can't over the things that don't work like I would expect or hopeful. For instance, exporting an outline to .doc or .html format leaves the markdown syntax in the exported document. That seems inexcusable to me, and makes me think the developers don't really get it.

Steve Z.

The whole situation is frustrating. Dynalist is so great on the desktop (near-perfect for my needs really) but then so bad on the desktop. Mubu has more limited features but very tight fit between the desktop and iOS - but then keeps your data on Chinese servers (and lacks an English interface). Outlinely has great sync, and a nice native iOS app, but then lacks the attention to detail that one finds in something like Bear.... And Workflowy keeps promising great new things, but is still pretty much the same as it was five years ago.

My ideal situation would be for Dynalist to buy Outlinely ... or for someone new to come along and just get all this sorted out once and for all with a proper app that works on both platforms. Till then, I guess everyone just has to figure out where they are willing to compromise... And I don't see that situation changing anytime in the next couple of years.

That should be "but then so bad on iOS"...

And see! Another Outlinely update! With fixes for the markdown-in-exported-file issue! And alphabetical sorting of folders in the Library! And proper indenting after checkboxes!

Ah, I have regained my faith!!!

Slow going, but any signs of life are positive...

Version 2.8.0:

Improvements

New: Indent Width Setting in Preferences Panel
New: Option to show Formatting mode (Markdown/RichText) in Wordcount bar.
Hanging indent for lines with checkbox. The wrapped line (or note) will be aligned after the checkbox.
Auto-numbering: Now Outlinely will try to automatically correct the numberings of your outline as often as possible.
Folders in Library are now sorted alphabetically.
Autocomplete emojis: Emoji names that match at the beginning are sorted higher in suggestion list.
Various UI improvements.

Fixes

Fix: Line Numbers not aligned correctly after entering/exiting fullscreen mode.
Fix: Remove markup when export markdown documents to RTF/DOC.
Fix: Export Markdown: Add empty line before a heading.
Fix: Child groups lose associated icons after renaming parent group.

After two years (and switching to a subscription model!), another minor update - just to provide Big Sur compatibility.

So sad that there is no actively supported app like this on MacOS. As much as I'd like to see one (I paid a "lifetime subscription" fee for this dud) I don't think we'll ever see a native mac app with the features of Workflowy/Dynalist/Roam ...

Yes, there is life! Perhaps the developer feels that Outlinely is as perfect as it could be?

It is a very good app, I have to admit. Perfect? Perhaps not.

In any case, the very, very, very sporadic pace of change is… well… disconcerting. Especially when you’re a subscriber!

Cheers,
Bill

Luhmann wrote:

So sad that there is no actively supported app like this on MacOS. As
much as I'd like to see one (I paid a "lifetime subscription" fee for
this dud) I don't think we'll ever see a native mac app with the
features of Workflowy/Dynalist/Roam ...

On MacOS, there is OmniOutliner, of course, and then there is Tinderbox, which is extremely powerful and continues to be very actively developed. (The same goes for InfoQube on Windows.)

Neither OmniOutliner nor Tinderbox are particularly similar to the raft of outliners inspired by Workflowy, of which Outlinely is one. While they might be nice for some users, my point remains, if you want an actively developed Workflowy-like outliner that works on MacOS and iOS with good sync, you are stuck with electron apps.