Dr Andus wrote:

xtabber wrote:
>John McPhee has used Kedit
>exclusively to write all of his books for nearly 30 years, as he
>discusses at length in “Draft No. 4,” which many in this
>forum would probably find worthwhile reading.

This sounds interesting... If I read that book, would it convince me to
shell out $99 for Kedit?

Or are there cheaper alternatives that can do what McPhee likes about
it?

McPhee’s book details (in exquisite prose) how a master of non-fiction does it, but that is not necessarily going to translate into someone else’s work habits. He describes his use of the ALL command to work selectively on topics within documents, but also explains that he got a friend (clearly a good REXX programmer) to build him a custom macro library to speed things along.

If you want to try Kedit, the demo version will only save the first 75 lines of a file, but is otherwise fully functional, and full documentation can be downloaded from the web site. Read the chapters on targets and selective editing in the user’s guide to see how ALL and related commands work.

The Hessling Editor was a free open-source editor explicitly modeled on Kedit, but I don’t believe there has been any development on it for many years now.

xtabber wrote:

If you want to try Kedit, the demo version will only save the first 75
lines of a file, but is otherwise fully functional, and full
documentation can be downloaded from the web site.

A word of caution from the developers http://kedit.com/features.ia1.html

"Before you spend time learning about KEDIT for Windows, you should be aware of the current status of the product:

- Mansfield Software Group is no longer actively working on major upgrades of KEDIT, and we are in the process of gradually winding the company down. For these reasons, we generally do not recommend KEDIT to new users or organizations not already familiar with the program.

- However, because organizations that already use KEDIT, as well as KEDIT users who change jobs, etc., may have a continuing need for additional KEDIT licenses, we plan to continue selling KEDIT through our web site until at least the end of 2017.

- We plan to provide e-mail technical support for KEDIT, on a part-time basis, until at least June 2018."

(For once, I have an effective reason to control my CRIMP tendencies.)


Re line-aware editors, if I properly understand the desired features, you may want to check out Em Editor https://www.emeditor.com/ It can sort lines, recognise and manipulate CSV files, and much more. It is lighting fast and regularly developed. The main downside is that it recently switched to a subscription model (which only influences updates). There is a lifetime subscription though.

Many thanks for the heads up on John McPhee’s book from me as well; I'm sure it will be worth reading even beyond Kedit.


On the broader subject of legacy software, my understanding was that the original question, at the start of this thread, referred to software that has _not_ been updated. In this context, I can't help thinking of Visicalc, the spreadsheet introduced for the IBM PC in 1981 (it was originally developed for Apple II in 1979). It can still be downloaded and will run happily in contemporary Windows http://www.bricklin.com/visicalc.htm

I find this brilliant and, by the way, I'm sure I read about this here some time ago.

I just joined this forum, and this topic looks like as good a place as any for my first post:

I'm guessing that my three oldest applications are

1. DOSSHELL from 1988

2. "Thoughtline" outline processor for DOS from 1986.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-06-15/news/8602120848_1_outline-wordstar-paragraph

3. A text based database program for DOS called FYI from around 1985

I run them under MS-DOS 6.21 on an old Toshiba laptop that's on it's last legs.

(I once had CP/M versions of the Thoughtline and FYI programs that I ran on multiple Kaypro computers back in the day before switching to MS-DOS)

After all these years I'm finally ready to jettison my beloved old DOS software and want to see if I can find Windows equivalents, so that's why I'm here.

Will in Seattle
a.k.a. "Clueless"

Well, some Apple apps still run fine under OSX High Sierra :
. Opal 1.2.5 (2009)
. Mori 1.6.11 (2008, I think)
. Notae 2.2.1 (2007)
. Journler (2.6b.4)
. Process 3 (3.0.13)
Not bad for an ever changing system!
Yes, some of us are still alive...
And, I must admit I sometimes wake my old G3 Powerbook just to use More once again!

Clueless,

I think you win the trophy for oldest apps! I have access to Grandview, a DOS outliner -- in my opinion the best application ever -- on my MacBook with DOSBox, but unfortunately I can't say I use it much because there is no connectivity with any other apps.

Steve Z.

My oldest non-updated outliner software I still use (in Win7) are not that old, but here they are:

StoryView 2.0 - 2001 (a later version, Outline 4D is from 2009, but it's practically identical and I prefer to use StoryView for its look).

Natara Bonsai - 2009

Surfulater - 2012

ConnectedText - 2015 (I still have hope that CT is not completely abandoned yet)

Natara Bonsai provides a perfect example of why one might actually want to purchase software that will no longer be developed or supported by the author. It is still perfectly functional, and probably will be for many years to come, but when I encountered a problem a few years ago for which it would have been the ideal solution, I found out that I could not acquire it at all.

Does ShadowPlan from CodeJedi count?

Not the oldest by far, yet 'cross platform' WinXP and Palm3 (now E2) that I still use on daily basis. Have not found anything on a handheld platform that performs as well.

Arnold wrote:

Does ShadowPlan from CodeJedi count?

Not sure how I missed this app. I was a big Palm fan back in the day, but Bonsai and SplashNotes are the outliners I remember coming across.

How is the ShadowPlan desktop companion for Windows? Is it on par in terms of sophistication with Bonsai?

Viva les antiquités - just because something is old doesn't mean it's outdated.

Like emacs, gateway to everything, and it will even edit text files, too.

Dr Andus wrote:

Not sure how I missed this app. I was a big Palm fan back in the day,
but Bonsai and SplashNotes are the outliners I remember coming across.

How is the ShadowPlan desktop companion for Windows? Is it on par in
terms of sophistication with Bonsai?

Have not used Bonsai so can not compare.

ShadowPlan on the Palm was (is) the best single pane outline application in terms of use imho. project manager, task list and documents. Use it for procedures and projects still today.

The desktop had a few quirks that would bite (especially if you told it not to sync between pda and desktop), text based not fancy formatting (bold/italic/underline), bullets are best left to dashes or asterisks not auto generating.

Assigning dates to a task was simple (Start/Target/Finish), notes for subhead could be a few k in size which is plenty most days in my line of work/use.

Am moving to EMACS Orgmode currently since there is no future, the Palm E2 is long in tooth (~ 2005) so the battery can not last too much longer. Still better than the Apple iPod Touch in battery time usage.

Nice simple design, closet thing to paper & portability that finds a place in my pocket or kit.

Of course lastnight I had to find old file notes that is stored in Agenda. This does not happen often, yet would wager this happens to more people than just myself.

Old data and applications sometimes must be used. Lucky I had the file stored offline and could recover the application and datastore.

Should migrate from old applications to new is great 20/20 hindsight.

Arnold wrote:

ShadowPlan on the Palm was (is) the best single pane outline application
in terms of use imho. project manager, task list and documents. Use it
for procedures and projects still today.

Thanks for the reply. The desktop app does sound quite similar to Bonsai.

Have not used Bonsai so can not compare.

I summarised the key features and benefits of Bonsai here:

http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/4193/0/natara-bonsai--still-a-top-notch-outliner

The oldest Mac app I (occasionally) use is the Opal outliner by David Dunham.

https://a-sharp.com/opal/

It's the exact same app as his original 1986(?) outliner for the Mac called Acta. He sold the app in the 90s, it was renamed DynoNotepad, then it eventually disappeared. He apparently bought back the rights to it then recoded it to work on modern, non-PowerPC Macs.

If you've got one of those old Macs, Dunham has released Acta for free use:

http://www.a-sharp.com/acta/

Opal is basic and fast and I still am able to access and edit my 1980s outlines. For hardcore outlining I currently use other options but Opal still runs - and well - and imports/exports OPML.

The oldest Mac app in my Apps folder is ClipEdit from 2006, which lets you edit Mac text clippings & picture clippings:

http://www.everydaysoftware.net/clipedit/