Although I don't use a Mac I have always been interested in their software, which seems to offer a much greater range of writing tools. (Zoot and Grandview are probably my main reasons for not having swapped over.)

For example, I was looking through some of Ted Goranson's columns on the "About This Particular Macintosh (ATPM)" website at http://www.atpm.com and noticed that the concept of an "outline of outlines" seems well-established in the Mac field (Ted mentioned Arrange, NoteBook and NoteTaker as using variations of the feature). This is the two-pane notetaking layout where the lhs pane contains an outline tree of topics and the rhs notes pane can be used as a single-pane outliner as well as just a place for notes.

It's hard to understand why this feature is not implemented more widely in Windows information managers, since the process of thinking about the information collected, rearranging the ideas into logical arguments or narratives and so on, would seem to be important next steps, and most easily carried out within the same software that contains the raw information. I'd particularly like to see this in Zoot.

Incidentally, I was tempted to buy a Mac (one with an older OS) just to try out some of the legacy software he describes at http://www.atpm.com/10.03/atpo.shtml - including David Dunham's Acta, and Dave Winer's More.

Derek

I have a list of 24 note-related apps for Macintosh (besides my own Opal, which is now at public beta 1.0b3, and should be out next month), which doesn't count multiple levels (e.g. Standard and Pro). Depending on what you consider in the category, there might be more (e.g. I didn't include Staples).

I didn't track the Windows ones as closely, but I'll bet I have around the same number. There are probably more.

Speaking of MORE and Acta, if you buy a new Mac, they won't run. You'll need an older Mac, with a PowerPC chip. (Or be prepared to do a lot of hacking with unsupported solutions.) This is a driving factor towards my work on Opal (besides the fact that things like filtering are tremendously handy).

David -

You’ll need an older Mac, with a PowerPC chip.

Thanks for the tip. That's what I had in mind, but glad to get it confirmed.

On the "outline of outlines" theme, one PC software developer has now told me that the main obstacle to implementing outlining in the "Notes" pane of two-pane notetakers is capability of current rich editors. I hope someone finds a way round this.

Derek

You can also use an emulator like Mini vMac. It runs both on the (newer) Mac and the PC. You also need an older operating system. I use 7.5.3 second revision (which is free and can be downloaded from the apple website) and a file that contains the information of the rom of an old Mac (for which you have to have access to the real thing in order to legally copy it).

I did install it on my PC just to run Acta and More. With a little effort you can even print to a PDF file and thus use the results of your efforts on the PC.

Yes, I did look into emulation, but I thought that it would problably almost as expensive to get the Mac OS and rom legitimately as it would be to pick up a cheap Mac laptop and use that. Less fun, too:-).

I didn't know about being able to download an older Mac OS for free, though. Interesting...

Getting the Mac Rom legally should not be that expensive. All you need is a classic Mac. (I have seen them in the hall ways (to be thrown out as scrap) at my institution of higher learning. E-Bay might be a good place too. Downloading the Rom to the computer can be done with a freeware application. (And working on a classic Mac (residing on the PC) is fun.
Manfred

Thanks, Manfred. I'll keep my eyes open for one.

Derek

As a newcomer to this forum and a novice in these fields, I'm posting with some hesitation. But I'm a little surprised that this topic hasn't created more interest. Maybe it's been addressed before.

IME there are a few Windows programmes that provide "outlines of outlines" - after a fashion. Most are in the writing genre. Liquid Story Binder is one (working in an RTF environment, so that can't pose an impossible bar - I think the chapter outline works as a subset of the book outline). Idea Mason, as has been mentioned before, is another. In the Mac world, apart from those listed, I believe Scrivener is another possibility.

Beyond writing software, personally I've achieved a result by embedding MS Word in Ultra Recall and using Word's not-too-bad outliner. I've heard of Brainstorm being used similarly. I'd try doing the same with Notemap if it wasn't so expensive. I believe that you can create an outliner of sorts in Infohandler using a category tree. And of course there's MS OneNote. But few of these are simple and none has a really top-quality, order-your-thoughts efficiently outliner.

I share the view that a good "outline of outlines" would be a holy grail of personal information software. Before computers I'd go to a library to find information. That library would be arranged according to some well-understood principle - or "outline" - which would easily allow me to extract the sub-set of information that I wanted. I'd then re-arrange the subset of information in a second outline to enable me to compose.

Why, when there are dozens and dozens of pieces of personal information software in the Windows world, do none enable me to do this cleanly and simply?

Well that was a conversation stopper ;>) Like announcing at a party that you're a mathematician...

Well said, Hugh. I simply can't understand why it is so difficult to find such software, but probably the silence here explains the reason.

I was interested to hear about your embedding of Word's outliner inside Ultra Recall. As I remember, clicking on a Word file in UR's tree opens Word plus the file in a separate window, and this can be re-sized to fit the UR display. It looks very neat; sometimes the illusion of complete integration is almost as good as the real thing :-).

Zoot also allows linked files to be opened externally in this way (via "Insert file" or "file link"), and one can similarly "scale" down the Word window to fit the editor pane. But there is little real interaction between Word and Zoot. Does UR offer something more for Word and Brainstorm than this? I imagine there would be no problem also using NoteMap in this way.

But integration via file linking and launching is a poor second to having a rich-text editor with outlining facilities built into the editing pane of a two-pane notetaker. This would enable outlines and their contents to be treated just like other text notes. If this were to be combined with the data-organization, manipulation and searching capabilities of a program like Zoot it would integrate outlining into the whole creative process. I won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen, however.

Incidentally, I've been fiddling around with the desktop version of PocketThinker, a single-pane outliner, over the weekend (http://www.pocketthinker.com/ It is a lot like NoteMap - including having the NoteMap bug which deletes one or other attached "comments" when one merges neighbouring items. It's more spartan than NoteMap in terms of features. But at $20 for the desktop and PPC versions together, however, it is a pretty good deal. Also, the developer seems active and there is a forum.

I managed to export a complex Grandview file to it and was surprised at how well it took the import, aside from a small glitch with spacing. PT's native file-type is .opml. It's import-export features are good (it imports to and exports from Word's outline view) and it provides some integration with Outlook. It's good to see people like PocketThinker and Bonsai still developing single-pane outliners.

The UR-Word combination is slightly slicker than you imply Derek. I've set up a Word outline template in UR, so I just click on that to get the Word toolbars (including the outline toolbar) to pop up in UR's editing pane - no resizing of the window necessary. And the results are fully indexed, and of course saveable within UR. I imagine the same would apply to BrainStorm, or, as you say, NoteMap.

I'd forgotton about the Palm/PPC outliners like PocketThinker - which seems good value. I notice that it will import Ecco csv outlines, which reminded me that what I'd really really like is the bastard child of Ecco and Zoot, all written in 32-bit, and looking beautiful, of course.

Hugh Pile made this pronouncement:

>The UR-Word combination is slightly slicker than you imply Derek. I’ve set up a Word outline template in UR, so I just click on that to get the Word toolbars (including the outline toolbar) to pop up in UR’s editing pane - no resizing of the window necessary.

Hi Hugh

Could you say a little more about what you mean by a "Word outline template"? Do you mean a standard Word template or some cut-down version for outlining? Pardon my ignorance.

Jack

re UR: I thought there must be something more to it. Like Jack, I'd like to know more about the Word outline template. Good to know about the indexing of the files. I think Zoot has a way of searching linked files, but I've never got it to work. With Word files I just tend to extract the text and import it into Zoot. Like most people I'm hoping the 32-bit version will take care of many of these problems.

I'm more and more impressed with PocketThinker. I haven't tried the PPC version yet; only the desktop one. So far my only problem has been getting the desktop version's outline items to link with Outlook contacts, notes, etc. I have managed to get it to work, but it was a fiddle, and only worked properly after I had closed and opened Outlook again. I had similar problems opening the PT outlines from within Outlook. All seems sorted out now, though. PT also has a nifty feature that enables one to convert Outlook notes to outlines.

PocketThinker's issues with linking may be being caused by two factors: having ActiveSync in my startup, and - probably associated with this, or with the PT-Outlook integration - problems in getting Outlook 2003 to close down properly. I've just installed Knockout.exe (http://sunflowerhead.com/software/knockout/ and that seems to help.

The template is a UR template. It's not complicated to make, but it has a couple of stages that are covered in the UR Help and UR's own forum. What you end up with is a Word document - can be an outline, can be any other Word document - in the templates branch of your UR data explorer pane. You can then use this to create any Word document - including a proper Word outline - and store it anywhere else in your data explorer tree. What you are effectively doing as far as I can see is making Word, rather than UR's text editor, your editing tool.

It's not perfect - only Word toolbars, not Word menus, end up in the editing pane. And the Word toolbars sitting below the UR toolbars look rather cumbersome. But as well as searching, you also have UR's metadata available to you. And what is really good is that notes I make, say, in Outlook, and store in UR, I can just drag and drop from the UR data explorer tree directly into a Word outline in the editing pane.

Understood. Thanks for the information Hugh. I'll have to have a good look myself.

Jack

RE: MS-Word Templates in UR as a UR Template

I recently had to setup a couple of these, and although the UR docs were helpful it was still confusing and required much trail and error (maybe just me).

Here's what I found:

Create the desired template in MS-Word, save as a Word Template (.dot); it is not really required that you save as a .dot, but I had the Word Templates already exisitng, and when saving as a .dot the Word Templates can be shared and used by others.

The part that gave me fits was trying to use the .dot file as the basis for the UR Template, even went so far as to (try to) modify the UR Preferences but could not get UR to open the Word .dot file.

What I finally got to work was - from Word open a New Document, select the desired Word Template, then save the New Word Document to a convienent location. In my case I named the New Word Document the same as the Word Template name and saved to \My Documents Folder.

In UR Template Folder, create a new Template Item (Document Type), drag-drop the Word .doc file to new Template Item.

I'm not sure if drag-drop is the correct method because I then had to edit the UR Item Attributes | Doucument | URL value to blank; when you drag-drop the URL value is the path to the file you just dragged-dropped - seems to me that once you get the .doc file into the UR template you don't need the originating file, which can be deleted, hence the need to blank the URL value.

Anyway, I worked on this a few weeks ago and this is what I recall getting to work.

Hope this Helps,
KenA

Derek,

I think Zoot has a way of searching linked files, but I’ve never got it to work.

Are you still using Zoot?

The searching should just happen, other than linking the file, you shouldn't need to do anything for it to work.

Graham

One program that provides a modest outline of outlines is ListPro from Iliumsoft.com. You can create a hierarchical list of your lists in the tree pane, and then each of the items in your list can be subheads of other items. Not perfect, by any means, but perhaps effective for some purposes.

Steve Z.

Thanks for the explanation, Hugh. It's very helpful to know how far UR is achieving integration with other software. This is a perennial problem.

Steve -

I looked at both desktop and PC versions of ListPro a month or so ago when scoping out programs to use on my Axim. As you say, although it's not quite what I have in mind in connection with the current thread, it certainly shows the power of the "outline of outlines" approach. It's about the best program I've come across for making and storing lists of lists, and the multi-column feature is very useful. I'm currently trying to find an excuse to buy it.

Derek

Find a two-pane PIM with outlining in right pane at

http://www.handshigh.com/html/tmfeatures.html

Thanks Cassius, that wasn't on my list before.

I do wonder why they mix Windows outline gadgets (left pane) and Mac outline gadgets (right pane).

Graham,

Good to hear from you. Yes, I'm still using Zoot. Have you moved on to other software?

The searching should just happen, other than linking the file, you shouldn’t need to do anything for it to work.

In my last project I tended to use Zoot for my own notes rather than importing file contents or linking to files. Probably, too, I haven't been sync'ing to windows folders or shortcutting to files often enough to have got the whole thing sorted out (however, I still have your very helpful detailed comments on how to sync, and have my Net Snippets folder sync'd in this way).

As for not being able to search linked files, this seems to vary with the type of link. I think my problem - one I've noticed others have had in the past (I'm always about two years behind everyone else in fathoming Zoot's features) - is sorting out the various ways in which one can use shortcuts in Zoot. As I recall, one can:

1. Make shortcuts between items, items to folders, etc (just mentioned for sake of completeness);

2. Sync a Zoot folder to a windows folder. This adds file-links and 32k of each file's contents (max) to the respective Zoot Notes. Zoot's query feature will find results both in the notes themselves, and in the remainder of the linked file - though it will not highlight and go to the location of the "hit". This works for me;

3. "Insert file" - basically pastes a file-link into a Zoot note via the editor-pane context menu. I am not able to search these linked files using Zoot's query feature;

4. Make a shortcut from a selected file to an item. This shortcut resides in the shortcut manager as one of the item's group of shortcuts, but nothing appears in the associated note. One has to click the big Z to see and use this type of shortcut. I am not able to search this type of link using Zoot's query feature.

It is quite possible that I am doing something wrong here, but I can't for the life of me see what it is...

Derek

Thanks, Cassius. That's about the design I had in mind. I'll take a closer look.

Derek

Derek

2. Sync a Zoot folder to a windows folder. This adds file-links and 32k of each file’s contents (max) to the respective Zoot >Notes. Zoot’s query feature will find results both in the notes themselves, and in the remainder of the linked file - though it will >not highlight and go to the location of the “hit”. This works for me;

I should have guessed you would have fully investigated this. The above method is the only way I have tried to get it to work, which as you say works.

I tend not to link files but to save files into windows folders that are synced to Zoot, so they automaticaly appear in the correct place in Zoot. So in fact I cannot help.

I have been usiing Infoselect for a few months now, instead of Zoot.

It gives me RTF and I can sync windows folders just as I have been with Zoot and IS searches them just as Zoot does. Additionally, I can right click on a synched windows folder in IS and get the normal Windows explorer context menu, inside IS.

You can set up tabs along the bottom of the main window that hold shortcuts to any location with the IS databases, and you can set up different tabs along the top of the main window that hold pre-set filters.

So navigation is fairly slick.

I also like being able to set up a spreadsheet within a record, and a proper data base form to add data as well as the freeform approach. I always wished Zoot could add up columns. You can also add a calendar, and strangely I have found this useful to add info on other peoples movements, or seminar lists - things I don't want in my main calendar in TimeTo

The down side is the Transporter, the equivalent of the Zooter, but not as versatile. Even though IS is RTF it doesn't save the images from web pages, but it does keep the layout. The other downside is the customer support, which is a little erratic.

Overall, however, it is just clumsier than Zoot, as was UltraRecall, which I bought at the same time as IS and just couldn't get on with. I had been having file corruption problems with Zoot, and I also bought MyBase (vastly improved with latest version) and I am back re-evaluating Zoot, UR, MyBase and IS.

Deep down I still think Zoot shines above all the rest, unfortunately a lot of what I do involves graphics file and PDFs, the two things that Zoot doesn't do well.

Graham