The WSJ is offering the following:

WSJ+ members can also claim a complimentary year of Evernote Premium.

I believe this is connected with their scheme of inserting various outside sources of information onto the Evernote screen -- e.g., if you do a search for "Silicon Valley" in your notes, some material on that subject from the WSJ will also appear. I'm not sure how that will work if you don't have a subscription already to the WSJ. And I trust this feature will be optional.

I am an Evernote user (albeit not a "serious" user), but I would think seriously about what data I would want to commit to the service based on this (and other threads):

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/78102-whats-going-on/

Evernote has so many things it does well...it's sad to see prior heavy users have to call out how bad the issues are.....

d

Thank you for posting this -- I am a print subscriber to WSJ -- spurred by your note I discovered that I could activate WSJ+ and from there redeem the 12 months of Evernote Premium. Would not have known this but for your post.

Cassius wrote:

The WSJ is offering the following:

WSJ+ members can also claim a complimentary year of Evernote Premium.

Interesting thread -- thanks for pointing it out. Evernote's quality control is not as good as it ought to be, and it's always seemed to me that the obvious explanation for that is the company's extraordinary lack of focus. (Exhibit A: Evernote-themed socks and coffee mugs.)

----------------------------------------

PIMfan wrote:

I am an Evernote user (albeit not a "serious" user), but I would think
seriously about what data I would want to commit to the service based on
this (and other threads):

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/78102-whats-going-on/

Evernote has so many things it does well...it's sad to see prior heavy
users have to call out how bad the issues are.....

d

You guys had a discussion here, about 1 year ago, that EN had now been positioned as a "lifestyle product", but in the meantime, you seem to have forgotten about this already again.

Fact is, thingies like Facebook, What'sApp, Evernote et al. are money-generating machines for their inventors, or as the Grimm tale is, Gold-Ayyes (sorry for the spelling error, but even for classics, some words are forbidden now (well, it's AFTER 1984, so what do you expect?)): That's their reasons of being.

Just today, welt.de says, only one-third of 13-years-olds are on Facebook anymore, but just one sentence later, they tell us that these kids are now on WA instead: Well, the good news is, WA belongs to Mr. Futterberg (or what was his name again?), too, now!

Ok, not all of them are as successful as Mr. Futterberg is with his "give me your data. all of them." imperium, but at least they strive, and EN is one of the premier efforts in this trend.

Thus, whining about EN not being a traditional PIM anymore is obsolete, and just a little bit whimsical for grown-ups.

Discussion started this time around because of super incompetent dumming down of Evernote browser app which makes it virtually unusable.

That caused me concern about whether I should continue to trust EN as a basic container of some 10,000 articles because if the powers that be at EN did the same to the desktop and/or Android product I'd be in a mess.

So I raised question of alternatives.

Yes there was a discussion about EN positioning a year ago, and probably every year before that. But it was changes since then which prompted the current discussion.

And in the process some of us found out just how much service and support, as well as quality, has dropped at EN since that dicussion. New information Fred.

Not surprising, though, old themes came up again - but perhaps with more focus. EN positioning as a business product with cross merchandising with the likes of Moleskine (an overpriced product backed up by fictional provenance linking it to Hemingway) vs the kind of info needs writers and academics might have. I guess lifestyle factored in there someplace.

But more important was notion that Phil Libin and crew have serious issues, lease of which is one of focus. Info dump & limited info manager for business? A vehicle for profitable cross promotions and merchandising? A software for the needs of writers and scholars which, while without necessarily being a bib manager, are different from those of business.

I made my annual and predictable comment that Libin et al have always had issues understanding what an info manager does.

And I added that one reason EN does as well as it does is because of business consultant types (I refuse to dignify them with the word guru which out of the Sanskrit has some substantive meaning) who write EN manuals much of which consist of work-arounds for a product lacking in information features.

Interestingly none of this discussion on this forum, or my tweets about the issue on Twitter have elicited a response from Libin or anyone else. This is unusual. I have found Libin and EN service to be regular monitors and responders on Twitter prior to this last go-around.

I have also visited the EN forums. There has been a sea change in the last year. Even some of the usual fanboyz over there are opening critically of EN developers and service/support.

In the process of all this, a worthwhile discussion ensued with Neville Franks of Surfulater/Clibu - and a robust discussion as to where Clibu is at in its development and some of Neville's next steps.

As for me, having lost confidence in EN I am trying to figure out what to do. Am using Workflowy for some stuff, and find Nimbus Note a much more professional, thoughtful - though far from perfect in its still early iterations - product than Evernote. And it even has elements of aesthetic appeal, which EN lost long ago, especially as it barged thoughtlessly into the bizarre world of mobile app and Windows 8 design.

I am looking with some interest at Zotero.

Anyhow, that's the background of the current discussion - it's not simply that we're all addicted to having annual disingenuous discussion about whether EN is a lifestyle product or a breath mint (reference to tag line in old Certs commercial - Certs is a candy mint - Certs is a breath mint - Certs is both; cute at the time, I guess).

Cheers,

Daly

22111 wrote:

You guys had a discussion here, about 1 year ago, that EN had now been
positioned as a "lifestyle product", but in the meantime, you seem to
have forgotten about this already again.

Fact is, thingies like Facebook, What'sApp, Evernote et al. are
money-generating machines for their inventors, or as the Grimm tale is,
Gold-Ayyes (sorry for the spelling error, but even for classics, some
words are forbidden now (well, it's AFTER 1984, so what do you
expect?)): That's their reasons of being.

Just today, welt.de says, only one-third of 13-years-olds are on
Facebook anymore, but just one sentence later, they tell us that these
kids are now on WA instead: Well, the good news is, WA belongs to Mr.
Futterberg (or what was his name again?), too, now!

Ok, not all of them are as successful as Mr. Futterberg is with his
"give me your data. all of them." imperium, but at least they strive,
and EN is one of the premier efforts in this trend.

Thus, whining about EN not being a traditional PIM anymore is obsolete,
and just a little bit whimsical for grown-ups.

I don't have particular concerns about what Evernote is ("lifestyle" or whatever) -- that's a timewaster.

IMO, what's always important to mull over and discuss here and elsewhere is "what happens next". By this I mean I believe it is important to always have an exit plan from any cloud. I tolerate Evernote because the desktop client is still pretty good (despite v6 glitches) and its easy to unplug it from the Evernote cloud and have my data safe and triple-backed-up here in my local network and my private offsite. I don't get this from Workflowy and its peers and would thus never use it.

My rule of thumb is: if I can unplug from a cloud service and still have my data, then I'll tolerate the cloud service otherwise I won't touch it for anything more than curiosity. I can unplug Dropbox, OneDrive and the like so I'm good with that. I can't unplug Trello, and its peers, so they're dead to me.

(Products mentioned here just for illustration.)

Paul Korm wrote:

its
easy to unplug it from the Evernote cloud and have my data safe and
triple-backed-up here in my local network and my private offsite. I
don't get this from Workflowy and its peers and would thus never use it.

Here are all the places my Workflowy data lives - automatically:

1. workflowy.com
2. text file in Dropbox
3. local text file on my machine's Dropbox folder
4. copy of the local text file on my local network storage
5. Gmail (using the daily email option, which includes everything that changed the previous day)
6. Evernote.com server (email auto-forwarded from Gmail)
7. local Evernote client

This excludes the option to manually export the entire Workflowy outline to formatted text, plain text or OPML at any moment.

Granted, I think you have to be a paid user to achieve some of the above. But I don't feel worried with this setup that I am going to lose any of my data even if Workflowy folds.

Paul.

That's exactly why I have been using Evernote. And exactly why I think about dropping Evernote: Last week, I went to a seminar in the mountains - no internet there. So I took along my iPad with a huge Evernote database - I had synced before leaving, and I have a Premium account. When I was in the mountains, EN wouldn't open any of my notes. Always the same error message: Switch offline operation on, or else you cannot access this note. But this message also appeared after I switched offline operation on (and off and on). And it appeared also when trying to open notes I had been able to open on the iPad without internet connection before.

So, my trust in EN dramatically dropped.

:-(


Paul Korm wrote:

I don't have particular concerns about what Evernote is ("lifestyle" or
whatever) -- that's a timewaster.

IMO, what's always important to mull over and discuss here and elsewhere
is "what happens next". By this I mean I believe it is important to
always have an exit plan from any cloud. I tolerate Evernote because
the desktop client is still pretty good (despite v6 glitches) and its
easy to unplug it from the Evernote cloud and have my data safe and
triple-backed-up here in my local network and my private offsite. I
don't get this from Workflowy and its peers and would thus never use it.


My rule of thumb is: if I can unplug from a cloud service and still have
my data, then I'll tolerate the cloud service otherwise I won't touch it
for anything more than curiosity. I can unplug Dropbox, OneDrive and
the like so I'm good with that. I can't unplug Trello, and its peers,
so they're dead to me.

(Products mentioned here just for illustration.)

Chris Murtland wrote:

Here are all the places my Workflowy data lives - automatically:

1. workflowy.com
2. text file in Dropbox
3. local text file on my machine's Dropbox folder
4. copy of the local text file on my local network storage
5. Gmail (using the daily email option, which includes everything that
changed the previous day)
6. Evernote.com server (email auto-forwarded from Gmail)
7. local Evernote client

The Chrome app (which also works offline) is yet another option.

Franz, first time I set up Evernote on my Nexus, including to synchronize, I discovered that I couldn't open anything because all that had downloaded was the list of items. I went into settings and found I needed to specifcally require EN to download all content.

I was pissed, though relieved I could do that. Would have been nice if EN had told me that in the first place.

Daly

Franz Grieser wrote:

Paul.

That's exactly why I have been using Evernote. And exactly why I think
about dropping Evernote: Last week, I went to a seminar in the mountains
- no internet there. So I took along my iPad with a huge Evernote
database - I had synced before leaving, and I have a Premium account.
When I was in the mountains, EN wouldn't open any of my notes. Always
the same error message: Switch offline operation on, or else you cannot
access this note. But this message also appeared after I switched
offline operation on (and off and on). And it appeared also when trying
to open notes I had been able to open on the iPad without internet
connection before.

So, my trust in EN dramatically dropped.

:-(


Paul Korm wrote:
>I don't have particular concerns about what Evernote is ("lifestyle" or
>whatever) -- that's a timewaster.
>
>IMO, what's always important to mull over and discuss here and
elsewhere
>is "what happens next". By this I mean I believe it is important to
>always have an exit plan from any cloud. I tolerate Evernote because
>the desktop client is still pretty good (despite v6 glitches) and its
>easy to unplug it from the Evernote cloud and have my data safe and
>triple-backed-up here in my local network and my private offsite. I
>don't get this from Workflowy and its peers and would thus never use
it.
>
>
>My rule of thumb is: if I can unplug from a cloud service and still
have
>my data, then I'll tolerate the cloud service otherwise I won't touch
it
>for anything more than curiosity. I can unplug Dropbox, OneDrive and
>the like so I'm good with that. I can't unplug Trello, and its peers,
>so they're dead to me.
>
>(Products mentioned here just for illustration.)

Thanks Daly. But that was not the problem (not this time, I had also stumbled over that problem 2 years ago).
This time I had already downloaded the content of the notes to my iPad. The notes were there but EN wouldn't let me open them.

An interesting discussion in many respects.

The University at which I work provides me with 50 gig of Box space. I also have 25 gig of space of my own on Box, 25 gig on Onedrive, and 15 gig on Copy and Google drive. My space on Dropbox is pretty small, I think I have 2.5 gig there. Most of the stuff that I have in the cloud is on Box. I have stuff in these cloud drives, but it isn't stored there for use, nor is it backed up there. It is stored there so I can transfer it.

On the issue of data in the cloud-I don't trust any of my data to the cloud alone. I store all of the data that I need to have access to locally. If a piece of software requires that I store data in the cloud for access, I don't use it. (With a couple of exceptions, see below.)Given the cost of hard disks these days(even SSDs), storage is phenomenally cheap. I have no particular philosophical differences with the cloud, but I come from an era when networks were not as ubiquitous or as reliable as they are now, and became used to keeping things locally. I back up to a network attached storage device, but that is the only place that my data are found that is not my computer. The data that are on the tablet are transferred through a cloud-usually Box-but they live on the tablet while I work on them.

I also do most of my work on a MacBook Pro. I haven't had a real desktop computer for years. First a series of Windows laptops at work(Lenovos. Loved those.). My personal machine has been a MacBook or MacBook Pro for the last 10 years or so. With a laptop and a big harddrive, it's easy to carry your data with you. No real need for the cloud. I prefer having software that uses local data because I can work on it whenever and where ever I like. No network access needed. I have good network access at work and good network access at home. And in these days of nearly ubiquitous wifi I can connect many other places. But the nice thing is that I can disconnect from the webbie-web, and still do productive work. I don’t rely on internet access.

For me, the utility of the cloud is not so much as a place to keep stuff to be worked on, but more of a convenient place to put stuff so I can transfer it to my tablet from my computer, or the other way around. I also use the cloud to distribute files to others. That way I don't choke up their email inboxes with lots of stuff.

I do have a couple of pieces of software that require the cloud. One is Notesuite, another is Onenote. For these pieces of software the utility of the cloud is that data can be transferred from my computer to the tablet and back. I also have calendaring software that syncs through the cloud. But the authoritative version of all these data is on my local hard drive.

On the issue of "lifestyle" software-I don't use Facebook, or Twitter or any of those platforms. Not so much because I dislike them, mostly because I don't see a use for them. I don't think that anyone else is so interested in my life and what I am doing that I need to send tweets to them. With regard to Facebook, I call, write, or email my friends. I have no use for Facebook. .

I moved from the PC to the Mac a few years ago. There were a couple of reasons for that. One is that I prefer trusting to an industrial strength operating system that has been around for a while(I refer here to Unix, the underpinnings of the Mac). The other reason was Devonthink. I use Devonthink for nearly all of my important information storage. I bought Devonthink Pro Office several years ago. It is still my mainstay. I have tried other software(Initially Together and Eaglefiler. Also Evernote. Onenote has a different place in what I do.)Devonthink can't be beat. For Devonthink, all of the data live locally.

Like the rest of us CRIMPers, I try other things as they come along. But one of my main criteria for the usefulness of software is whether the software is dependent on storing data in the cloud. If so, it goes lower on my list. I have never much liked Evernote. Not so much because of where it stores its data, but more of the way it works. I had a copy on my laptop but never used it. Last week I deleted it.

One other thing-as a working scientist I need to have access to the scientific literature. I use specialized software to keep track of that(Currently Papers 2.7)Again, those data live locally. The newest version of Papers (vers 3.X)stores libraries in the cloud. I upgraded to vers 3.0, but dropped back to 2.X because of the requirement for keeping data in the cloud.

Jim

jamesofford wrote:

I have no particular philosophical differences with
the cloud, but I come from an era when networks were not as ubiquitous
or as reliable as they are now, and became used to keeping things
locally. I back up to a network attached storage device, but that is the
only place that my data are found that is not my computer.

From a practical point of view, I think one should not trust either cloud or local storage exclusively and therefore one needs to use both (unless of course you have some top secret stuff, in which case never use the cloud). Both have the capacity to fail.

To me it seems to be a generational issue. The older one gets, the more one has seen large corporations (or even governments)--and especially start-ups and one-man bands--fail, so one can't blindly believe that data in the cloud will always be safe (in the sense of technically available). Any business can go bankrupt (OK, maybe except banks, but that's a different story ;)

Bear a thought also for those of us without the easy availability of a broadband connection to utilise cloud services.

I used to scoff at the thought that there were areas without proper broadband connectivity ... until I moved here. If I ever have to leave this office, which has a very ropey DSL connection, and return to working from home, where I have to use a very expensive and very limited satellite internet service, then any cloud services I may have will have to be switched off to preserve bandwidth.

"Here", by the way, is a pretty decently-sized city (16000 people) in Germany, which is, in many respects, technologically still 40 years behind its neighbours. Many's the day I wish I could run a cable from the Dutch border 7 km away ....

I've run into this same problem... being unable to access my Evernote data on my iPad when not able to connect to the Internet. I too am a Premium user. This doesn't happen all the time, so it is both frustrating and makes me question the reliability of EN.

Franz Grieser wrote:

Paul.

That's exactly why I have been using Evernote. And exactly why I think
about dropping Evernote: Last week, I went to a seminar in the mountains
- no internet there. So I took along my iPad with a huge Evernote
database - I had synced before leaving, and I have a Premium account.
When I was in the mountains, EN wouldn't open any of my notes. Always
the same error message: Switch offline operation on, or else you cannot
access this note. But this message also appeared after I switched
offline operation on (and off and on). And it appeared also when trying
to open notes I had been able to open on the iPad without internet
connection before.

So, my trust in EN dramatically dropped.

:-(


Paul Korm wrote:
>I don't have particular concerns about what Evernote is ("lifestyle" or
>whatever) -- that's a timewaster.
>
>IMO, what's always important to mull over and discuss here and
elsewhere
>is "what happens next". By this I mean I believe it is important to
>always have an exit plan from any cloud. I tolerate Evernote because
>the desktop client is still pretty good (despite v6 glitches) and its
>easy to unplug it from the Evernote cloud and have my data safe and
>triple-backed-up here in my local network and my private offsite. I
>don't get this from Workflowy and its peers and would thus never use
it.
>
>
>My rule of thumb is: if I can unplug from a cloud service and still
have
>my data, then I'll tolerate the cloud service otherwise I won't touch
it
>for anything more than curiosity. I can unplug Dropbox, OneDrive and
>the like so I'm good with that. I can't unplug Trello, and its peers,
>so they're dead to me.
>
>(Products mentioned here just for illustration.)

I love how Cassius' innocent notification about the partnership between Evernote and the Wall Street Journal turned into this fascinating thread about cloud apps! This is why I treasure this forum and its members!

If the cloud is going to be useful for storing/transferring/accessing one's personal information, it has to be invisible to the process. I want to write a note on my laptop, iPad, desktop and know that I'll be able to access it from any of those devices whenever I need it, even if there is temporarily no Internet. I don't want to think about syncing the data. Does anyone feel they have this kind of experience now? If so, what app(s) are you using?

Steve Z.

I think Paul's hit it on the head here. I have independently taken precisely the same approach, which is why I ceased using a number of otherwise pleasant and enjoyable task management apps that required more or less permanent online access.

All of my apps are now offline-capable, which also means it's easy to make further backups of data on my own in-house systems.

As for Evernote: I have to say I've never really trusted the service, and after reading this particular thread (and the various references on EN's own forums), and evaluating my use of EN (negligible), I've just deleted the client from my machine.

Sad? No, not really. There are plenty of alternatives if one is willing to look at OneNote, Outline+, Notebook, Wiznotes etc. as providers of essentially the same service (easily searchable, cross-platform rich-text notes with images if required that can - if desired - be shared with other people).

What's more, there are some seriously interesting online alternatives emerging from the woodwork, such as Slack (just to pick one example), or indeed Quip. Both excellent online services supporting offline work. And both designed for sharing from the get-go.

----
Paul Korm wrote:

IMO, what's always important to mull over and discuss here and elsewhere
is "what happens next".

My rule of thumb is: if I can unplug from a cloud service and still have
my data, then I'll tolerate the cloud service otherwise I won't touch it
for anything more than curiosity. I can unplug Dropbox, OneDrive and
the like so I'm good with that. I can't unplug Trello, and its peers,
so they're dead to me.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

If the cloud is going to be useful for storing/transferring/accessing
one's personal information, it has to be invisible to the process. (...) I don't want to think about syncing
the data.

Actually I'm starting to lean in the opposite direction, after having lost data in automatic cloud syncs a couple of times now. I want an in-your-face confirmation that the sync was successful, and even more obvious alert if the sync was unsuccessful (getting louder, the more time passes). I'd even prefer it to prevent me from putting the device to sleep or shut it off before doing a manual backup.

E.g. just this week I needed to restore a damaged file on my PC, from my MozyHome online backup service, which I set to automatically back up my PC twice a day when the PC is idle, just to find out that due to whatever quirk Mozy failed to back up for the last 7 days and properly alert me about it, which means that my changes to that file in the last 7 days were also lost... Ouch!

I have a lot of apps for content creation on my iPad -- apps that sync via a cloud service (the Dropboxes of this world) or proprietary (the Evernotes) -- but I can't think of anything that syncs in the background, which I what I believe would have to be happening in order to fulfill the requirements "whenever I need it, even if there is termporarily no Internet". I believe iCloud Drive is supposed to do this, but it doesn't seem to work out that way in practice. If iCloud were working then the Pages/Keynote/Numbers suite would do what you want.

A feasible replacement for Evernote is Alfons Schmidt's "Notebooks" app -- available on iPad, Windows and OS X. It syncs via Dropbox, or directly thru wifi, or through WebDAV. The iPad app will only sync when you tell it, and when it fails to sync it creates a simple-format failure report explaining just what went wrong. Notebooks are folders accessible thru the desktop file system and documents are non-proprietary formats (PDF, Markdown, "formatted text", HTML, images).

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I want to write a note on my laptop, iPad, desktop and know that I'll be
able to access it from any of those devices whenever I need it, even if
there is temporarily no Internet. I don't want to think about syncing
the data. Does anyone feel they have this kind of experience now? If so,
what app(s) are you using?

Dr Andus wrote:

E.g. just this week I needed to restore a damaged file on my PC, from my
MozyHome online backup service, which I set to automatically back up my
PC twice a day when the PC is idle, just to find out that due to
whatever quirk Mozy failed to back up for the last 7 days and properly
alert me about it, which means that my changes to that file in the last
7 days were also lost... Ouch!

Have you looked at alternatives like Crashplan? There are a number of members at another forum where I am a member who use Crashplan, and they like that it allows you to both backup via the web and to a local hard drive. I have not used it myself, but number of folks use it as part of their image archiving strategy, and it seems to be well regarded.

--Ken

I use CrashPlan for full-disk backup (minus the OS) and it works well. At least, I think it works well. I've never had to recover an entire disk with it, but I have recovered folders and files from time to time. CrashPlan usually backs data across the network to either their servers or a "friend's" computer. It can also be configured for backup from one-machine to another on a local network. It is silent -- nothing tells you the sync started or finished, and nothing tells you it failed unless you go look for status. Oh, there is a weekly email about status, but by then failure is often too late.

Ken wrote:

Have you looked at alternatives like Crashplan?

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm aware that there are probably some better services out there, but that brings me to another problem with cloud services. Once you're heavily invested into one, it's not that easy to switch... I'd need a week (that I currently haven't got) to re-upload masses of data that would hog the bandwidth and CPU during that time... Just can't afford to lose that sort of time just now. But when vacation time comes, then again I don't feel like spending my precious free time on it... You see the catch 22?

Speaking of Evernote, I just received an email from them today announcing their new feature:

"Do the work, share the work, and talk about the work all in one place. Evernote’s newest feature, Work Chat, connects you with colleagues to achieve your best."

I'm wondering if I'm just in a totally wrong demographic or profession, but I don't get this overwhelming focus on constant sharing and collaboration. It's nice to be able to do it when you need it, but does that mean that every single app needs live collaboration and sharing? Is everybody out there really constantly chatting and sharing while working?

Anyway, it just feels like a lot of development time and energy is going into these collaborative and sharing features, when that sort of thing could be achieved at the OS level or by some specialist (screen-sharing, teleconferencing) tool, rather than having to build that into every single app...

Unless it's just a ploy to use the power of social networking (i.e. peer pressure) to force the product on one's colleagues... OK, rant over... :)