A new online app will interest many here: Gingko

https://gingkoapp.com/

In writing about Gingko, it's easy to talk about what it is. A new kind of word processor. A way of reading and writing hierarchical documents. A mix between Evernote + Workflowy.

It's different, but is it significant?

We believe it is. And though I usually temper my enthusiasm when discussing it (I can get a little intense), I am going to make a very bold claim:

This new medium will be the way most text is read and written in the future.

Lots of critical commentary on Hacker News, including for the hyperbole:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6302825

Mark wrote:

A new online app will interest many here: Gingko
https://gingkoapp.com/

Mark, thanks for posting this! I've only looked at the demo but if this really works as described, then the hyperbole might be justified.

I've actually looked for such a software before when I was asking for a horizontal version of Outline 4D's timeline view (or index card board), but nothing came close:

http://www.outlinersoftware.com/messages/viewm/18059
http://www.outlinersoftware.com/messages/viewm/18094

However, Ginko does exactly that! This could be incredibly useful for academic writing (and possibly screenwriting etc.), where you need to write highly structured documents in terms of hierarchical levels.

It might be more useful for planning a document than to actually write it in full, but if it would be possible to export from Ginko as RTF, then one could carry on the writing in O4D, which would be a way of having an O4D as it should have been designed in the first place...

Running to try it out...

Okay, so formatting is limited to Markdown, and exporting is limited to text. I like the simplicity. It looks like there are ways to convert Markdown to .docx (e.g. http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ and then to RTF, so it should be possible to import a Gingko horizontal outline and turn it into a vertical outline in O4D (or your favourite outliner).

So far I like Gingko a lot!

Are there any other outliners for Windows or iOS that can import Markdown and convert it to an outline more directly?

One limitation of Gingko is that it only has three levels of hierarchy (4 levels, if you count the Markdown headings), as opposed to O4D's unlimited levels. But, hey, you can't have everything...

It does compensate somewhat with the ability to hide the index cards on the other 2 levels, while focusing on writing an index card on one of the levels.

Mark wrote:

Lots of critical commentary on Hacker News, including for the hyperbole:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6302825

It's good to see that the developers are planning for off-line mode, OPML export and hoisting. Those would be my top requests as well.

From the comments it looks though that the developers might have an uphill battle to sell this to the general public. This looks to me like quite a specialist tool, the benefits of which might not be that easy to explain. It looks like it's the WorkFlowy users who are cottoning onto it the quickest...

Dr Andus wrote:

Okay, so formatting is limited to Markdown, and exporting is limited to
text. I like the simplicity. It looks like there are ways to convert
Markdown to .docx (e.g. http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/ and then to
RTF, so it should be possible to import a Gingko horizontal outline and
turn it into a vertical outline in O4D (or your favourite outliner).

The easiest way I know of to go from Markdown to RTF/Word is with WriteMonkey, http://writemonkey.com/ Just use Ctrl-Shift F and paste into Word or an RTF editor.

Astrid, Catch Notes, Google Notebook, Google Reader, Thinklinkr, Stickit....

Personally, I am very reluctant to commit my work to any cloud-exclusive app. There is too much history of abandonment. Nevertheless, I am impressed by the concept of Ginko, and wish the developers good luck with it.

Steve Z.

Not bad. Lately, as I move from device to device, it seems to be more important to get to a file. That's Evernote's great strength. Gingko was kind of fun and interesting on a PC browser. But when I tried it on the iPad, I found that I could create and edit cards, but couldn't effect any structural changes. And on my Android phone, I couldn't display anything but the first column. So that makes me think it won't move into a regular tool for me.

@ Steve Z & jaslar

Those things are important to me as well. However, from reading the Hacker News discussion, my sense is that this is a brand new service that is currently being developed by two guys, so all the bells and whistles are not in place yet. However, they seem to be making the right noises about the additional services they are planning to add (infinite levels, off-line access, local copies, OPML export etc.).

I also need to comment on the cost of $9 per month if you want more than three trees. That's a lot of money each year. If you use it extensively, then it would be worth the money. But I doubt I'd get my money's worth.

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I also need to comment on the cost of $9 per month if you want more than
three trees. That's a lot of money each year.

Yes, that's true, especially for a service that feels like it's still in beta (with some critical features missing). It's more than double of what WorkFlowy Pro would cost you a year ($49), without the iOS apps, collaborative features, offline access, and automatic Dropbox backup...

I'd be surprised if they don't end up dropping that price.

For now I would only use the free version for occasional outlining jobs with immediate export to avoid data loss.

Mark wrote:

The easiest way I know of to go from Markdown to RTF/Word is with
WriteMonkey, http://writemonkey.com/ Just use Ctrl-Shift F and paste
into Word or an RTF editor.

Thanks. Just tried this (CTRL+SHIFT+E). The headings exported fine but the bullet points got a bit messed up in Word (though easy to fix).

However, I haven't looked at WriteMonkey for years. It has come a long way, it's looking quite good now!

Dr Andus wrote:

Are there any other outliners for Windows or iOS that can import
Markdown and convert it to an outline more directly?

It turns out that you can just copy and paste directly from Gingko into MS Word, and the formatting seems to be recognised just fine. No need for any special Markdown conversion (as far as basic formatting and headings are concerned).

From a message from Gingko:

"Here are a few features we've added today.
- Export: You can now save your tree as plain-text, formatted text, or slideshows.
- Yearly subscription: Support us by subscribing yearly for $79 (27% off).
- Public Trees are Free: You can have as many public trees as you like."

New Gingko export options:

Format:
- Plain text (markdown)
- Formatted text (html)
- Presentation (impress.js)

Content to export:
- Whole tree
- Third column only

Still trialling Gingko... I've found the following use for developing and managing a project plan quite interesting, especially as the resulting plan/journal can be exported as a plain (Markdown) text file, with months, weeks and days properly stacked up:

http://blog.gingkoapp.com/uses/gingko-for-goal-setting-journaling

Gingko has just lifted the 3-column limitation as of today (before this the horizontal outline hierarchy was limited to 3 levels/columns), which means that now one can add unlimited no. of cards both horizontally and vertically.

In the meantime I've adopted Gingko as the main writing application of my current project. The main attraction of it is that I can view "cards" (or outline items) that are at different levels of the outline hierarchy side-by-side (thanks to the triple column structure), which in other outliners would be buried deep within the hierarchy.

This just makes planning the overall structure of a piece of writing, developing the individual sections, and doing the actual writing somehow easier, as it makes referring across the various notes easier. Gingko is essentially an infinite board, upon which you can lay out index cards, rearrange them, and connect them into a horizontal hierarchy, while also being able to create a vertical hierarchy using headings.

Something similar could be emulated in Outline 4D (StoryView), using its MDI to tile 3 or more windows of the same outline vertically. However, Gingko has an edge over O4D in this regard, as its columns are also connected horizontally to form an outline, while still allowing you to scroll the vertical outlines independently of each other, if you wish (the "fruit machine" or "slot machine" feature). Somehow it's also easier on the eye.

I like Gingko for the same reason that I like ConnectedText and WorkFlowy: the essentially free-form nature, which allows you to develop your own setup and workflows.

If anyone's interested, my blog post on exploring Gingko's features for outlining and writing:

http://drandus.wordpress.com/2013/10/12/gingko-app/

When I logged in to my Gingko account just now, a window popped up offering the first 500 takers a lifetime subscription for $39. That's a considerable savings (depending on lifespan) over the standard $9 per month or $79 per year. I took it. If anyone else is interested, grab the deal fast.

bobmclain wrote:

When I logged in to my Gingko account just now, a window popped up
offering the first 500 takers a lifetime subscription for $39.

Thanks for the heads up. I just logged in but did not get the pop up, and the Upgrade Account link leads to the usual 9/79 offering. So either the 500 users were reached, or it is a random offering.

I encourage others to try it nonetheless, you never know.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

bobmclain wrote:
>When I logged in to my Gingko account just now, a window popped up
>offering the first 500 takers a lifetime subscription for $39.

Thanks for the heads up. I just logged in but did not get the pop up,
and the Upgrade Account link leads to the usual 9/79 offering. So either
the 500 users were reached, or it is a random offering.

I'm inclined to think that it's not a random offering. If you signed up soon after this thread was started (30 Aug 2013), then there might be a chance that you're included in the first 500.

But I agree that this is a pretty good deal.

A writing prof's take on Gingko (on the ProfHacker blog at The Chronicle of Higher Education), with a screenshot pinched from yours truly ;)

http://chronicle.com/blogs/profhacker/write-in-a-new-way-with-gingko/52975

Dr Andus wrote:

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
I also need to comment on the cost of $9 per month if you want more than
>three trees. That's a lot of money each year.

Yes, that's true, especially for a service that feels like it's still in
beta (with some critical features missing). It's more than double of
what WorkFlowy Pro would cost you a year ($49), without the iOS apps,
collaborative features, offline access, and automatic Dropbox backup...

I'd be surprised if they don't end up dropping that price.

Looks like they did lower the price in the end: $4.99 / month or $39 / year.

And a correction: Gingko does have collaborative features (I missed that the first time round).

Some noteworthy recent features in Gingko:

- export as .docx;
- export column 1, 2, or 3 only;
- export a horizontal branch only (Current card and subcards);
- blank cards can now be created (allowing one e.g. to set up the frame of an entire piece of writing, where each card represents a paragraph etc.);
- ALT+arrow shortcut to create a new card in edit mode, without having to exit edit mode of current card first.
- HTML support (such as for highlighting, tables, custom CSS, Javascript).