I copied this from the "Your Top 3 Tools?" thread, because I thought it warrants a separate conversation. I am also at a similar impasse:

Vincek wrote:

1. Evernote -- for long term storage of just about everything, including
research/background for blogging and forthcoming book
2. GREAT BIG HOLE (explained below) in workflow
3. Scrivener for Windows -- for (less than optimal) organizing and (very
good) writing capabilities

I envision that #2 could be filled by something like Devon-Think (IF I
used Mac, but I don't), or Connected-Text (if I wanted another
stand-alone program, but I don't). So I wait.... until this hole gets
filled by something that integrates (not just interfaces) with Evernote.
Another way of describing #2 is that I have a boatload of information
that for now I have to make sense of mostly through my own head, but
would be great to have a digital program to augment this process (ala
writing process described by Steven Berlin Johnson who uses Devon Think
for Mac).

I found a link to the following TheBrain forum thread at the TreeSheets Google Group; I especially like the part about the 'information thermodynamics': "There is a conservation between the energy (time, effort) of information entry and corresponding information retrieval." (I believe Steve Zeoli has mentioned something similar in the past).
http://forums.thebrain.com/post/Brain-and-Evernote-Im-in-trouble-6134484

I've written elsewhere that I find Evernote's hierarchical tag features almost as powerful for organising items as any folder-based system. I still do; however, organisation alone is one or more steps before synthesis which is what I often need; it is also not conducive to action.

Hmm, mumble, bumble... (circling in the room a la Scrooge McDuck)

The undertext here seems to be the age-old dilemma whether to use one software for everything or to use a tool-chain of several specialist software. I'm in favour of the latter, simply because the world is constant flux and therefore that one software is destined to become inadequate in relation to the environment and, by wanting to please a lot of common ground, it will include some specialist needs.

The latter option then requires 1) a conscious design of the workflow and the tool-chain, 2) appropriate tools for integration between elements of the tool-chain (export-import compatibility, access to a common data source (Dropbox), including separate tools that manage the transfer of data in meta-layer (utilities that help you copy and paste easily, arrange & move windows across several monitors) etc.).

Dr Andus wrote:

by wanting to please a
lot of common ground, it will include some specialist needs.

I meant to say **exclude** specialist needs.

Dr Andus wrote:

The undertext here seems to be the age-old dilemma whether to use one
software for everything or to use a tool-chain of several specialist
software.

Yes and no (on my part at least): I don't mind the chain, as long as there is convenient integration. What I miss here (and apparently others too) is a way to manipulate the information snippets stored in Evernote, e.g. combine them, associate them with tasks and the like, etc.

With a single text, one can start in FocusWriter or another minimal tool, continue in Scrivener, Sense or Outline4D and finalise the output in Word. One can even reverse part of that chain.

But with a group of Evernote snippets things are not so simple. The most advanced manipulation I can think of is to export them and import them in a tool such as Scrivener. But given Evernote's connecitivity and multitude of apps that work with it, it seems rather strange that nobody has connected a writing tool or other 'snippet processor' to it. At best one will find task managers like Nozbe which can link to task-related info within Evernote. Nice but unimaginative. Unless of course I've missed something more advanced.

This is the dilemma, isn't it? That "synthesis" phase is the missing link to the holy grail. While I love TheBrain and use it daily for my day job, I am not sure it is a great synthesizer of data as once you put the links in, they are pretty rigid. That is, TheBrain doesn't facilitate experimenting with information organization until you tease out new meanings and structures that illuminate your ideas if you haven't done that work up front at the time of capture. I do agree with the commentator on TheBrain forum that it is better than Evernote for giving you context for your information -- I've called TheBrain a GPS system for my information and I still think that's an apt description.

I also agree with the notion implied by that same commentator that we handcuff ourselves some worrying about the ease of capture of information, when the real work comes with the synthesis. So, I would change the question to, which application is the best at synthesis? Then build an information capture system that works with that application. My initial feeling is that the best application for synthesis on Windows might be ConnectedText. (For the Mac I think it is Tinderbox.) But admittedly synthesis may mean different things to different people, and may change depending on the type of project.

This is a system that begins with Evernote capture might be a problem, since sharing of data is not so easy with Evernote, as exemplified, I think, by the relatively few Trunk applications available for use in Windows.

I'm sorry this ramble hasn't added anything resembling insight, nor has it answered your initial query.

Not that this is part of this discussion beyond being an interesting and useful workflow: I created an outline in Noteliner on my office PC, saved it as a text file (with indents marking the hierarchy) to Dropbox. Used my Dropbox app on my iPad Mini to send the text file to the OmniOutliner app, which opened it as a perfect outline. I then saved this back to Dropbox as an OPML file, which I was then able to open in Tinderbox. Sounds complex, but the process of moving it from the text file to Tinderbox didn't take more than a minute.

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

we
handcuff ourselves some worrying about the ease of capture of
information, when the real work comes with the synthesis. So, I would
change the question to, which application is the best at synthesis? Then
build an information capture system that works with that application.
My
initial feeling is that the best application for synthesis on Windows
might be ConnectedText. (For the Mac I think it is Tinderbox.) But
admittedly synthesis may mean different things to different people, and
may change depending on the type of project.

I agree 100%. This is critical. The system needs to be built around the analytical engine, rather than the capture mechanism (as long as the latter doesn't have a monopoly, in which case you wouldn't have a choice).

This is a system that begins with Evernote capture might be a problem,
since sharing of data is not so easy with Evernote, as exemplified, I
think, by the relatively few Trunk applications available for use in
Windows.

Yes. But I think there is another issue here. A distinction needs to be made between note-taking (as in "data capture") and taking note (as in "making a note of something"). Just because Evernote is good at the former, it does not make it necessarily suitable for the latter.

In fact I would argue that it even makes sense to build a "firewall" with some filters to separate captured data from actual notes. I don't buy the "put all your notes in one system" mantra, unless this one system allows you to separate captured data from your own notes (or "data" from "information") and also provides tools for processing (analysis and synthesis).

I'm sorry this ramble hasn't added anything resembling insight, nor has
it answered your initial query.

On the contrary, I think you nailed it.

Not that this is part of this discussion beyond being an interesting and
useful workflow: I created an outline in Noteliner on my office PC,
saved it as a text file (with indents marking the hierarchy) to Dropbox.
Used my Dropbox app on my iPad Mini to send the text file to the
OmniOutliner app, which opened it as a perfect outline. I then saved
this back to Dropbox as an OPML file, which I was then able to open in
Tinderbox. Sounds complex, but the process of moving it from the text
file to Tinderbox didn't take more than a minute.

Yes, in fact this sort of traffic is essential for a healthy toolchain and workflow. This is how knowledge is formed. It's not all that different from all the containers and tubes that a distillary uses to distill the essence.

Let me just add that I started my data collection process with Evernote at some point but then I dropped out at v. 2.2, I think. It was not entirely a conscious decision, it just started becoming less meaningful to me, the more data I put into it.

Then came several years spent in the wilderness, storing data in a multitude of applications and using Windows Explorer to navigate the forest.

And then we finally had this discussion and I settled on ConnectedText as the analytical engine and database, around which I structured all my data and information capture (the thread is worth reading from the beginning).

http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/3436/35

Note that I do not put everything into CT. There is a "firewall." Notes need to pass a filter (my judgement, and taking actual notes about the data), in order to get in. I use other apps to bookmark websites, capture web pages etc.

Hi.

Dr. Andus wrote:

Yes. But I think there is another issue here. A distinction needs to be made between note-taking (as in “data capture”)
and taking note (as in “making a note of something”). Just because Evernote is good at the former, it does not make it
necessarily suitable for the latter.

In fact I would argue that it even makes sense to build a “firewall” with some filters to separate captured data from actual notes.
I don’t buy the “put all your notes in one system” mantra, unless this one system allows you to separate captured data from
your own notes (or “data” from “information”) and also provides tools for processing (analysis and synthesis).

Same with me. Though I use the term "note-taking" differently: Note-taking Franz-style is writing down notes or scribbling vs. collecting input from webpages or transcribing paragraphs from books/magazines (taking note is something completely different in German = noticing).

I use Evernote for collecting - to be more precise, for dumping info into a storage pile where I later (or while dumping) select the heap the info snippet is to go to.
But I feel terribly incomfortable taking my own notes in Evernote. I use various tools for that: Noteliner, LibreOffice Writer, Scrivener, XMind, OneNote - depending on the project and the kind of notes I am taking ("thinking on paper/screen" is done in Noteliner or XMind, elaborating on a subject is mostly done in LibreOffice or Scrivener, for one project in OneNote).
Evernote feels clumsy when actually writing and is of no use when brainstorming/thinking/reordering/filtering...

Franz

Franz Grieser wrote:

(taking note is something completely different in German
= noticing).

Nice!

But I feel terribly incomfortable taking my own notes in Evernote.

Same here, but for different reasons. I logged onto my Evernote app on iOS after a long time, to check it out again. It turns out that when I registered with them 7 yrs or so ago (i.e. before social networking and smartphones), I used my real name. When I took a note this time, Evernote used location services to pinpoint my house and use my address as the title of the note.

I'm not engaging in anything illicit but this just feels far too much information to give over to a service that would also hold all my notes. If I'd sign up for their premium service, they would also get my credit card details. This just feels too much power to hand over to any organisation (not to mention they've only been hacked a few weeks ago).

Wow, do I every feel UNDERSTOOD! Alexander, thanks for taking my original note and turning it into a separate conversation thread. You have all articulated the challenge in a way that is very helpful and much deeper than I have been thinking.

For shorthand, let me put a 3 part label on the workflow challenge:

1) Capture (I currently use Evernote)
2) Synthesize ( my GREAT BIG HOLE)
3) Produce (I use Scrivener but can see many other possible workable options).

Here are a few excerpts from previous posts that particularly resonated:

* The forum thread about TheBrain and "information thermodynamics" (Alexander D). Very interesting. I am not familiar with TheBrain. I've downloaded the manual and will review the website. Thanks.

* "The undertext here seems to be the age-old dilemma whether to use one software for everything or to use a tool-chain of several specialist software. I’m in favour of the latter, simply because the world is constant flux and therefore that one software is destined to become inadequate in relation to the environment and, by wanting to please a lot of common ground, it will include some specialist needs." (Dr. Andus)

Yes, there are clearly tradeoffs between integration and specialization. I suspect the preferences here will be idiosyncratic to individual workflow -- no right answers. I value integration over specialization, at least as the current tradeoffs seem to play out.

* "What I miss here (and apparently others too) is a way to manipulate the information snippets stored in Evernote, e.g. combine them, associate them with tasks and the like, etc. " (Alexander D.)

Yes, that's the biggest problem with Evernote CURRENTLY. However, since Evernote is a platform, I am hopeful that in the long-term options will surface; I'm willing to be patient; perhaps TheBrain is a good option, particularly is there is a scenario for eventual integration (NOT just interfacing) w/ Evernote.

* "That “synthesis” phase is the missing link to the holy grail. " (Stephen Z.)

Yup, that nails it. In the meanwhile I'm stuck with my own brain doing this part :)

* "I use Evernote for collecting - to be more precise, for dumping info into a storage pile where I later (or while dumping) select the heap the info snippet is to go to.
But I feel terribly incomfortable taking my own notes in Evernote." (Franz G)

Yes, another challenge with Evernote.

A few perspectives from my personal POV.

* I will check out TheBrain as an option for creating synthesis. How's the learning curve here?

* My personal bias is that for now for me the capture part is more important. Evernote is very good at this. Having grown up using paper, it is becoming apparent to me that I must transition to a nearly all-digital workflow. I'm 57 and in the grand scheme of the universe very few people will grapple with this challenge.

* However, I'm patient. The transition from paper to digital workflow is not easy and will probably take years. I recognize that the world is in transition and that new technological capabilities are being developed all the time; I expect Evernote will get better and that as a platform there should be a lot of developers that want to plug into the 55M Evernote userbase. Over time I expect to see many options for plug-and-play apps that will fill in the synthesis hole in my workflow.

* So I think getting the capture part is essential and primary for now; once in digital format, data can be moved an manipulated. While I see the value of synthesis, I don't want to waste a lot of time trying out solutions that have a steep learning curve and don't have a pathway toward eventual integration with Evernote. Thus, I tolerate for now the GREAT BIG HOLE (lack of synthesis) but am optimistic long term -- perhaps even TheBrain is an accepatable solution -- I'll check it out.

Appreciative for all your insights and thoughts.

Vince Kuraitis




I was not familiar with TheBrain

Vincek wrote:

* I will check out TheBrain as an option for creating synthesis. How's
the learning curve here?

I don't think the learning curve is too steep or long with TheBrain. And the developer has a ton of how-to videos available to walk you through the various features.

I wrote a long review of a previous version of TheBrain (when it was still called PersonalBrain) for Mac.Appstorm (it is cross-platform and most of what I say about the Mac version applies to the Windows version).

http://mac.appstorm.net/reviews/productivity-review/personalbrain-a-gps-system-for-your-information/

Steve Z.

I've enjoyed this convo, I must say. I have Evernote on all my various machines (iPad, Android mobile, Windows laptop, Linux netbook etc. etc.), but very rarely use it (although I do back up various apps to it, e.g. Awesome Note, for some reason - probably because it's so accessible).

I've looked at it again, recently. It's very nice. Lots of useful features. But nothing truly compelling. And behind it all, an uneasy sense that once they've got you by the short and curlies, you're scuppered - totally dependent on Evernote for ever and ever and ever...

I prefer to keep my notes, especially project-related ones, on my own machines. Yes, they may sync with various Cloud services, but at the end of the day, I always have access to a local copy. My preferred way of storing large and variable items (web pages, excerpts from interesting articles, miscellaneous files etc.) remains Notebooks (by Alfons Schmid), which is now very stable on iPad and very pleasant to use on Windows. Above all, Notebooks deals with web material really, really well - you can copy and paste stuff in from more or less any page, and Notebooks will keep a remarkably faithful copy. For later reading, searching, comparisons etc., this is invaluable, especially since Notebooks (on iOS) has an excellent search function. The Windows desktop version doesn't, unfortunately, but since the files are stored on disk in HTML format, there are plenty of other options, including simple Windows Search or, in my case, Copernic Desktop.

I'm interested, too, by what people say about assembling stuff - the preparatory phase, as it were. I've always used a wide variety of tools, depending on what I feel like, what the project is, whether it's long or short/big or little etc. But TreeProjects has become one of my favourite platforms for assembling and drafting large documents, not least because of its excellent search function, excellent tagging, and MDI interface. I've tried TheBrain - more recently, excited by the enthusiasm of the revered Dr. Andus, I've even tried ConnectedText - but they just don't speak to me in the same way TreeProjects does.

Which just goes to show what an amusing bunch of individualists we all are, I suppose...

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I've found several important and useful insights even though my own perspective is closer to Vince's. I'll try to explain:

First of all, as for Vince, capture for me is king: I do much of my reading via RSS in my Android phone's Google Reader (yeah, I know, this will change) while commuting. I also need to capture some emails, Google+ or Linkedin posts, online articles, downloaded PDFs, you name it. Even though following developments is extremely important in my line of work, I simply have no time to search for information; I need to capture it as soon as it crosses my path. For this, I have found nothing comparable to Evernote in convenience and ubiquity.

I have amassed more than 10,000 articles in Evernote which I can search/filter as fast as I can type. Once you get that much info into a convenient tool the added value grows exponentially. I'm sure other tools like Zoot could fit the bill equally well. However, I cannot have Zoot on my Android phone. Or my Linux laptop.

Further, what Zoot and most other personal databases cannot do is share. I work with a team, and being able to share found info with them is also very important. Evernote makes this very simple with shared or public notebooks.

Going back to Vince's original workflow, I would add in my case a very important step, something like Dr Andus' firewall, which I would call Filter. When capture is as easy as it is with Evernote, one is bound to collect a whole bunch of unrelated information. Before proceeding to any kind of synthesis, I would need to only promote the relevant information items.

1) Capture
2) Filter
3) Synthesize
4) Produce

Evernote makes this relatively easy: one can filter and select at will and then export only those items as HTML. What is then needed is a program which monitors a folder in order to automatically import the relevant items. I have not found the ideal one yet, but there are several options.

As Vince said, Evernote is a platform, as is Outlook. For years I have relied on Outlook's calendar without ever using Outlook itself--other programs could access it directly and provide a more convenient interface. I believe that with Evernote's popularity someone will eventually build a convenient synthesis system around it. There are already some interesting experiments, such as TuskTools http://www.moreproductivenow.com/tusktools_calendar.html

To be clear, I do not envisage doing everything in one program. But I do envisage simple integration. Steve, the example you provided of taking an outline through several tools hit the nail on the head (as did several other points you made). This is something I do myself often with outlines and plain text files. But it is not very easy to do with collections of items, as exemplified by Graham's efforts to escape from the Brain. ConnectedText may be a brilliant synthesis tool, but moving info into it seems a pain.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

But it is not very easy to do with
collections of items, as exemplified by Graham's efforts to escape from
the Brain. ConnectedText may be a brilliant synthesis tool, but moving
info into it seems a pain.

You can't really fault CT for the fact that TheBrain doesn't name its exported HTML files individually and that it puts them in separate folders. As long as your files are .txt, HTML, or RTF files and they are in the same folder, it is relatively straightforward to do a mass-import with CT's import wizard. CT can even create links between the imported files automatically:
http://drandus.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ct_import_options.png

CT's main limitation is that it is a wiki, i.e. it operates with text documents, not folders (as opposed to UR or Zoot). Although once you have the text-based topics created/imported, it's a matter of a simple "drag and drop" to link them to external folders and files. Having said that, it would be nice to be able to import from a variety of different folders all at the same time.

Dr Andus wrote:

You can't really fault CT for the fact that TheBrain doesn't name its
exported HTML files individually and that it puts them in separate
folders. As long as your files are .txt, HTML, or RTF files and they are
in the same folder, it is relatively straightforward to do a mass-import
with CT's import wizard. CT can even create links between the imported
files automatically:
http://drandus.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ct_import_options.png

Yes, this sounds reasonable. So here's another strong candidate to accept the material from Evernote after the 'filter' and export stage.

Just came across Postach.io today, a blogging plaftorm which feeds of Evernote apparently:
http://postach.io/

This is probably a low-tech solution, but it's easy to copy a note link in Evernote and then paste that link into another program. I've done some experiments with MyInfo, but I assume it would work with other programs as well. I am able to create a simple outline in MyInfo with links that bring up particular notes in Evernote.

For that matter, you can do the same thing completely within Evernote. Just create an outline in one or more new notes, then paste note links into them.

It works reasonably well. It's not the high-level synthesis everyone here seems to want, but it's a quick and effective way of organizing a lot of miscellaneous information that's been dumped into Evernote.

Bill

Dr Andus: thanks for the heads up on postach.io it seems really good within the context of my use of Evernote.

Bill (WSP): this is indeed an option, though it falls more under connection, rather than the integration which me and Vince are looking for. That said, I wish other software would provide this common sense approach to linking documents offered by the likes of Connected Text, Evernote and Surfulater.