Funnily enough, I've been reaching the same conclusion re: task management. Currently, I've gone back to Carbonfin Outliner (and its web equivalent) for managing all my work - the information density is perfect. On the downside, it doesn't hoist, and tags are confined to lists, not to list items!

The other cross-platform apps I'm keeping a keen eye on are:
- Todoist: a very good outline-based task manager, with a very nice (fast) web interface. New apps are due out for iOS at any moment, and the Android app is already fairly polished (although the outlining isn't great). The Windows desktop version is rather good.
- SlickTasks: a wonderful, new iOS app that synchronises with a web version. Very cheap, and very quick. And a proper outliner, too! But the information density isn't great (it's a little too generously proportioned on iOS, which means you have to scroll about quite a lot to see everything). On the other hand, it does tags, and it hoists, too. Oh, and it's got a nice search function (so does Todoist, actually). And it's got a gorgeous interface. Still a bit of divergence apparent between web and iOS apps, but that's true of other apps, too (e.g. Wunderlist).
- EssentialPIM: already a powerful desktop app for Windows, they do a nice Android app and a reasonable iPhone app. Once they produce an iPad app, they'll be worth using in earnest. The synchronisation is still a little dodgy, however. But worth watching! EssentialPIM generally produce the goods, eventually.
- Doit.im: the latest version (iOS and Android, plus web version, plus Windows desktop version for Pro users) has introduced subtasks. I haven't, I admit, tried them out yet, but I'm looking forward to a play later this evening.

Finally, I'll just mention BiteHippo, a nice little iOS app from the Ukraine: the very responsive, friendly team have promised that this will include outlining in the near future (i.e. subtasks), and it's already got a nice set of simple features (plus a pleasantly whimsical 'feel'). I use it for jotting stuff down rapidly prior to putting it into a 'serious' task manager, but BiteHippo might eventually become such a thing itself...

Cheers,
Bill

MadaboutDana wrote:

Funnily enough, I've been reaching the same conclusion re: task
management. Currently, I've gone back to Carbonfin Outliner (and its web
equivalent) for managing all my work - the information density is
perfect. On the downside, it doesn't hoist, and tags are confined to
lists, not to list items!

Bill - in that case do check out Workflowy, as it addresses both the hoisting and the tags problem. The iOS app also syncs more or less automatically every few seconds after changes, as opposed to Carbonfin's manual sync.

In theory I've been a long-time Carbonfin user, but in reality I've been using it only here and there, partly because the syncing between multiple devices is inconvenient. The thing about Workflowy is that chances are when you log on to your PC's browser, the changes you've made on your iOS device will be already there.

But I'm only talking about task management. For actual mobile outlining (for writing) I'd still use Carbonfin.

I'm starting to think that Workflowy is a killer app, in the sense that they've solved 3 long-standing problems of task management apps:
1) how to deal with the fact that a growing flat or hierarchical list pushes older tasks deep down, until they get moved out of sight;
2) how to focus on just one part of the list, especially if the list is very large (100s or 1000s of tasks);
3) how to find specific tasks that share a common characteristic (e.g. equally urgent, due on a certain day).

The solution:
1) ability to create hierarchies of unlimited depth;
2) ability to zoom into a hierarchy level with a single click/tap;
3) ability to use tags, which, when pulled up in a search, show their entire breadcrumb trail;
4) ability to search for entire database or per hierarchy level, and shows breadcrumb trail;
5) do all of the above very fast and sync with server almost immediately.
6) it is free-form, in the sense that you decide what a project, a context, a task, a tag, and the overall architecture of the whole thing is. And can be easily restructured, as it grows.

This is why it reminds me of a particular desktop wiki solution ;)

Dr Andus wrote:

USD49 annually is a bit steep though for the Pro version of what still seems a beta in many respects (if we compare it to the free or very cheap other iOS apps). On the other hand the unlimited hierarchies and hoisting are pretty ingenious. I’ll have to see when I run out of my free 500 monthly tasks…

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

An important consideration, it seems to me, with one of these subscription-based web apps is where are you if the company goes out of business, raises their prices, changes their policies, changes their system in ways you don’t like, proves to have porous security, or you just can’t afford it any more?

Dr Andus wrote:

Thanks to its simplicity (so far), this is not as much of a problem with Workflowy, as the Pro version comes with Dropbox backup and even in the free version it’s very easy to export it as a simple list (though one would need to remember to do that regularly).

Dr Andus wrote:

[re Wunderlist] Moreover, the normal annual cost would come to USD59.88, which is 10 dollars more than Workflowy.

Well, Checkvist Pro costs 38 USD per year and, among others, provides daily backups in OPML format for the last ten days; I find it a reasonable insurance approach.
https://checkvist.com/auth/pricing

Dr Andus wrote:

I'm starting to think that Workflowy is a killer app, ...
The solution:
1) ability to create hierarchies of unlimited depth;
2) ability to zoom into a hierarchy level with a single click/tap;
3) ability to use tags, which, when pulled up in a search, show their
entire breadcrumb trail;
4) ability to search for entire database or per hierarchy level, and
shows breadcrumb trail;
5) do all of the above very fast and sync with server almost
immediately.
6) it is free-form, in the sense that you decide what a project, a
context, a task, a tag, and the overall architecture of the whole thing
is. And can be easily restructured, as it grows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The example shown for WorkFlowy shows only short notes. Can it include many paragraphs or pages in a single note, the way GrandView did and Inspiration does?

I probably am among the eldest of you, perhaps the eldest (72). Thus, throughout my career I have used different sets of tools as technology progressed. In high school and as an undergraduate, I used pencil and paper, books, and slide rules. (A slide rule scale I invented at age 17 went on the Apollo moon flights.)

As a graduate student, Ph.D mathematics candidate, and later a professor, I used pencil and paper, books, and an Olivetti Lettera 22 lightweight typewriter. Perhaps I should mention the furniture: Table, chair and bed. The bed is where I did almost all of the research for my Ph.D. The Lettera 22 also allowed me to type much of my dissertation there.

Then, as an operations research analyst, I used pencil and paper, books, and secretaries for typing. Later, I added a dumb terminal connected to a VAX computer and the statistical program SPSS. Finally, the PC arrived and as soon as GrandView became available, I used it for everything: Saving references, organizing my research and writing final copy. I used its keyboard macro facility to create printer commands to produce printable mathematical formulas. Alas, with the introduction of Windows XP, GrandView didn't work very well, so I eventually switched to Inspiration, Jot+, Word, and the NCSS statistical package. Occasionally, I also used Excel. (It was relatively straightforward to convert GrandView files into Inspiration files.)

Since retiring, my needs are less: I still use the now moribund Jot+, but may someday convert the files to Ultra Recall Pro. I also still use Inspiration and, until recently, used myBase for saving Web pages. However, I lately have replaced myBase with a TreePad Business "catalog" file in which I store links to Internet sites along with (usually) short notes.

A few final notes: Only once have I developed a work flow on paper or in a computer file. That was developed using Inspiration's diagramming facility and it was to give to colleagues a workflow methodology for doing safety (and other) benefit analyses. I never created a workflow on paper/computer for myself. (In school, when required to produce an outline before writing a paper, I always wrote the paper first and then the outline--the teachers/professors never knew.) I attribute much of this "internal" organizing to my mother, who repeatedly admonished me, as a child, to "think for yourself."

Finally, should any of you ever have occasion to analyze or write about a manufacturing or other process involving hands-on workers, I offer this advice, which I learned for myself at the tender age of 23. Put on your hard hat, steel toed shoes, and go down to the manufacturing floor. Talk to the people who are ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK and watch what they do. Most managers, many engineers, and even many foremen have NO IDEA as to what is actually happening. Do not ask hands-on people to complete paper surveys--the results will likely be hilarious reflections of their cynical opinions of management.

Cassius wrote:

... Later, I added a dumb terminal connected to
a VAX computer and the statistical program SPSS. Finally, the PC
arrived and as soon as GrandView became available, I used it for
everything:

Small world - I used GrandView to help plan software development while working at SPSS at around the same time.


Stephen Zeoli wrote:

An important consideration, it seems to me, with one of these
subscription-based web apps is where are you if the company goes out of
business...

An example is thinklinkr that quietly closed up shop. Fortunately, I didn't have much irreplaceable info there. All of a sudden, I could no longer log in. A note from the owners said I could still get in via the mobile interface, although only in read-only mode. At least that was enough to retrieve my data by copy/paste.

If you store stuff on your hard drive, you are supposed to back it up often.
If you store your original stuff in the Cloud, where is your backup?

Using Cloud/Web apps reminds me of using a dumb terminal and a mini or mainframe.
Retrogression anyone?

Cassius wrote:

The example shown for WorkFlowy shows only short notes. Can it include
many paragraphs or pages in a single note, the way GrandView did and
Inspiration does?

The answer is yes, as I've just tested this, and in fact the single-node note view was the closest thing to the GrandView document view I've seen so far.

Having said that, I'd be a bit wary about using WorkFlowy as my main writing or outlining solution. I'd be worried about losing long texts in between syncs. Also, the note text is rendered in a washed out grey font (as opposed to the item title, which is in black), so it doesn't seem to be designed for that.

The main attraction for me is as a task - and to some extent project - manager, and that I can use it across all of my devices (there are some Android clients too). Its single-click hoisting is just highly conducive to focusing on a particular segment of a task or a project. It is ideal for doing a "work breakdown structure" (brainstorming about and developing sub-tasks) and then rearranging them.

The other attraction is its simplicity. Compared to Checkvist (which I haven't yet tried), it looks like a beta, on the other hand it's sometimes simplicity that you want and need. I'm sure they'll be under pressure to gradually add the bells and whistles (ability to add calendar dates, attach files, tick boxes etc.), so it might get ruined one day.

Okay, I'm gonna take a look at Checkvist to see what I'm missing :)

Cassius wrote:

If you store stuff on your hard drive, you are supposed to back it up
often. If you store your original stuff in the Cloud, where is your backup?

The theory is that the Cloud includes its own backup, in the sense of redundant content copies and servers.

That said, for me it is important to keep copies of my data in my own equipment both for the principle of it, and for offline access as I spend significant time unconnected. Depending on the actual cloud service, this can be easy, difficult or impossible:

- For cloud mail services, an IMAP capable desktop mail client is all it takes
- For the cloud office service that I use for collaboration, Google Docs, the Google Drive desktop client is an easy solution; however, Google Docs format documents cannot be edited locally, so it is not ideal in the sense of independence.
- I personally use two services for my working files: Dropbox and Nomadesk. In Dropbox I keep most of my day to day files and in Nomadesk (which offers encryption and unlimited storage, but is more cumbersome) anything that is finished and delivered. Both services provide local copies of all data, available offline.
- Evernote, which I use for all my collected information, also provides a local copy of all data.
- The only area where I have found serious obstacles in copying data is social networking. Of the ones I use (Twitter, Google+, LinkedIn and Facebook), I have only found convenient ways to 'backup' Twitter and Google+, by automatically mailing myself anything that I post.

Using Cloud/Web apps reminds me of using a dumb terminal and a mini or mainframe.
Retrogression anyone?

Yes, this is partly true. But there's a good reason for it. A modern smartphone has as much computing power as the machines that the Apollo missions had available onboard. All this power cannot be harnessed very easily. Algorithms can be optimised and bugs can be resolved much more efficiently at the centralised level. We are seeing experiments with many different proportions of local (client) and centralised (server) computing weights. I don't think that there's a single combination which is ideal for all kinds of operations.

Cassius wrote:

Talk to the people who are ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK and watch what they
do.

Truer advice is rarely if ever given. Alas it is just as ignored now as it always has been.

Anyway, I don't post mcuh but I wanted to say three things:

1. the above
2. thank you Cassius for one of the most interesting posts I've read on this forum

3. why doesn't someone just redo Grandview for today? Easier said than done I
suppose, but jeez, it can't be THAT hard, can it? heh heh...

Tim the Red wrote:

Cassius wrote:
> Talk to the people who are ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK and watch what they do.

Truer advice is rarely if ever given. Alas it is just as ignored now as it always has been.

Anyway, I don't post mcuh but I wanted to say three things:

1. the above
2. thank you Cassius for one of the most interesting posts I've read on this forum

3. why doesn't someone just redo Grandview for today? Easier said than
done I suppose, but jeez, it can't be THAT hard, can it? heh heh...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a) Thanks, Tim.
b) Someone did try to produce a GV for Windows. It sort of worked, but he couldn't get it to work well enough. Some years ago, I tracked down GV's author. He had just moved and had no idea in which box his GV files were. Also, he had moved on to other things and was not really interested. Finally, the GV file format seems to be truly complex. If you were to open a GV file using a simple text editor it would look like a bewildering mishmash.

NoteMap was an attempt to duplicate many of GV's features. Unfortunately, it was buggy, lost test (at least for me) and after one update, development was abandoned.

-c

Dr Andus wrote:

Okay, I'm gonna take a look at Checkvist to see what I'm missing :)

I did check out Checkvist, and while it is definitely more mature and more feature-rich than WorkFlowy, I still prefer the latter. And not only do I prefer it: I got properly hooked on it. My search for a task manager has ended and I stopped using my other to-do apps (Reminders on iOS, MLO on the PC, and Project Outline in ConnectedText) altogether.

Pros: one-click hoisting; iOS clients that sync automatically; text-only interface; breadcrumb-trail; speed of use and operation; everything can be part of one overall list, which can be navigated like a single desktop-wiki project. The list adapts to the size of the browser (word wrap).

Cons: it still lacks a lot of features that people might expect (check-boxes, calendar, ability to attach files, highlighting in different colours etc.), but strangely I don't miss any of them.

A neat trick for ConnectedText users with smartphones/tablets: if you open WorkFlowy in CT's internal browser on the PC, you can dock it as if it was CT's own outliner (this is where the word wrap comes in), so you can have an outliner/task manager in CT which is in constant sync with your mobile devices.

The Checkvist list for instance doesn't word-wrap, so you'd need to scroll horizontally, which is not efficient. The CT integration is not 100%, as occasionally extra lines are inserted and the cursor jumps to the second line, but it's nothing critical and hopefully it will improve in the future.

Wow just 3 tools to pick? I am a trainer/speaker so a lot of my work is divided between creating courses and marketing them. So here are 3 of my top tools.

1. CRM: Nimble. I like the interface on Nimble but the real power of it is how it integrates with social media. It pulls in my customer's LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter profile info and feeds and shows our conversations in Gmail and LinkedIn right below the customer's contact information. I can schedule followups which then integrates with Google Calendar. Cloud based so I can access it anywhere.

2. Tasks/Projects: GQueues. A simple, cloud-based project management and task interface that lets me assign tasks via email. Also synchronizes with Google Calendar.

3. Evernote: Captures ideas, web resources, notes and most everything else

For actually outlining my workshops, I use Noteliner.

1. Notecase Pro. This is my work horse: daily task manager, notes database, work flow coordinator, journal, writing organizer and dashboard. A two pane outliner, and sometimes I miss that single pane power. Too, it doesn't run on the iPad (although it does on Windows, Linux, the Mac proper, and less well on Android). But even for just writing, toggling to the note panel alone is a very distraction free workspace.

2. Xmind. I give a lot of professional talks, and this allows me to either present from a laptop with one screen, or print out a half day workshop on a single piece of paper. Downside again: not available on an iPad. But I use SimpleMind or iThoughts in the same way. A graphic single pane outliner, as I think of it.

3. LibreOffice or Word. For significant writing projects, things wind up being exported from Notecase Pro for the last coat of polish and publication.

Honorable mentions: Evernote is still the best, multiplatform tool for gathering notes and quick jotting. I'm just starting to fiddle with Workflowy, but see real potential there.