Been there, done that. Now I am doing it again, and I know better.
Started by Magenda
on 2/10/2013
Magenda
2/10/2013 10:41 am
Just got horribly involved with Notepad2, trying to cope with the crazy increase of documentation INSCOs are demanding since the New Year from psychotherapists. (Don't ask, but it will be ok to ask later, once I get my head above water).
I haven't run into THE BUG with Notepad2 yet, having to do with too much info on screen if I remember. But it is horribly clunky in too many ways. For example, if I try to copy an entry, I can't seem to avoid copying all its children. It handles switching between files terribly. The help documentation boasts about copying between windows, but there is no drag and drop, except within a level, or what I like to call an item.
Fonts are handled terribly. I thought I was doomed, as my pages were fine on screen, but then truncated when printed. I found the problem was due to changing font size after I started, so was able to save my work with a work around, copying and pasting to a new outline with a smaller font.
It would be a big help if I could change the behavior of copying all child Notes when copying a note. Am I missing something?
What I really hope for is a better program, that hopefully I can migrate my 200 hours of work so far to! Basically, I need an outliner that I can build a document with, and that will let me reuse both the overall structure and specific notes, leting me chose what I want to put where.
I did download Bonsai, but it looks like formating is very limited. Unfortunately, I let the trial pass without testing it enough, but it looked like it just handled simple lists.
I never really mastered ecco-pro, or grandview, or PC Outline. I don't think I could do that now either, with my deadlines.
The best program I had for this was Kamas, on my first computer, a Kaypro 10 with CPM (and it's hacked improvements). Maxthink was another huge investment in time that didn't pan out.
Agenda and Magellan? An infinitely seductive, eventual soul-destroying heartbreak.
Zoot, I never could master.
Simple is best, I think, but it is too complicated for humans to achieve, at least so far!
What I am really hoping to find, would be a replacement for Notepad2, that just works!
I haven't run into THE BUG with Notepad2 yet, having to do with too much info on screen if I remember. But it is horribly clunky in too many ways. For example, if I try to copy an entry, I can't seem to avoid copying all its children. It handles switching between files terribly. The help documentation boasts about copying between windows, but there is no drag and drop, except within a level, or what I like to call an item.
Fonts are handled terribly. I thought I was doomed, as my pages were fine on screen, but then truncated when printed. I found the problem was due to changing font size after I started, so was able to save my work with a work around, copying and pasting to a new outline with a smaller font.
It would be a big help if I could change the behavior of copying all child Notes when copying a note. Am I missing something?
What I really hope for is a better program, that hopefully I can migrate my 200 hours of work so far to! Basically, I need an outliner that I can build a document with, and that will let me reuse both the overall structure and specific notes, leting me chose what I want to put where.
I did download Bonsai, but it looks like formating is very limited. Unfortunately, I let the trial pass without testing it enough, but it looked like it just handled simple lists.
I never really mastered ecco-pro, or grandview, or PC Outline. I don't think I could do that now either, with my deadlines.
The best program I had for this was Kamas, on my first computer, a Kaypro 10 with CPM (and it's hacked improvements). Maxthink was another huge investment in time that didn't pan out.
Agenda and Magellan? An infinitely seductive, eventual soul-destroying heartbreak.
Zoot, I never could master.
Simple is best, I think, but it is too complicated for humans to achieve, at least so far!
What I am really hoping to find, would be a replacement for Notepad2, that just works!
Dr Andus
2/10/2013 11:21 am
Two-pane outliner:
Scrivener for Windows. After its latest update it got a lot more nimble. You can select which nodes to export ("compile", as it's called in Scrivener), and you can format the text.
Single-pane outliner:
In Outline 4D you can select different branches and hierarchical levels to view/export/print, and it's a matter of a few clicks. You can also extensively customise the font by branch, level etc.
Scrivener for Windows. After its latest update it got a lot more nimble. You can select which nodes to export ("compile", as it's called in Scrivener), and you can format the text.
Single-pane outliner:
In Outline 4D you can select different branches and hierarchical levels to view/export/print, and it's a matter of a few clicks. You can also extensively customise the font by branch, level etc.
Stephen Zeoli
2/10/2013 3:26 pm
I agree with Dr Andus that Scrivener would do the trick.
If that seems a little too much to deal with, you could also try Sense. I have not tried it, but if you search on this site, you'll find some nice comments, I believe. Here's the web site:
http://www.silvaelm.co.uk
Steve Z.
If that seems a little too much to deal with, you could also try Sense. I have not tried it, but if you search on this site, you'll find some nice comments, I believe. Here's the web site:
http://www.silvaelm.co.uk
Steve Z.
Magenda
2/10/2013 11:14 pm
Spent the morning doing the Scrivener tutorial. Finally, got to putting some of my files together, but see it will take more effort than I have time right now. I will go back to Notemap2 for now, and hope to have some "free time" at some point to build up my Project in Scrivener.
Early days for Scrivener, but hopeful. Time is one thing I don't have a lot of.
I might be able to use Scrivener to manipulate my Notes, and pop them into Notemap, better than just trying to do it in Notemap.
"4D" looks garish, but if it would let me pop my Notepad outlines in and manipulate them better, I would go for it. Does it give a good printed output, formatted presentably?
I am amazed at how quickly one can switch between programs, with quick learning curves. It was very easy to pop my outlines into Treepad, Bonsai, but just not easy to get the output and massaging text I need. Similarly with scrivener, though it did take a while to wade through the tutorial.
Thanks folks.
Early days for Scrivener, but hopeful. Time is one thing I don't have a lot of.
I might be able to use Scrivener to manipulate my Notes, and pop them into Notemap, better than just trying to do it in Notemap.
"4D" looks garish, but if it would let me pop my Notepad outlines in and manipulate them better, I would go for it. Does it give a good printed output, formatted presentably?
I am amazed at how quickly one can switch between programs, with quick learning curves. It was very easy to pop my outlines into Treepad, Bonsai, but just not easy to get the output and massaging text I need. Similarly with scrivener, though it did take a while to wade through the tutorial.
Thanks folks.
Magenda
2/10/2013 11:15 pm
Anyone know if Sense will output presentable reports?
Alexander Deliyannis
2/11/2013 8:16 am
Magenda wrote:
Sense is brilliant for organising, reorganising, reusing and editing, but I don't think it's ideal for producing reports. In particular, it has some significant inconveniences in integrating tables and images; the developer is aware of these issues and their improvement is on the roadmap (note that I have not tested the very last version, so I may have missed something).
If you want to work on something that will be easily turned into a presentable document, my suggestion is to use one of the mainstream mind mapping products out there. MindView is by far the best in terms of creating beautifully formatted output. MindManager is the most popular, and MindGenius is probably the most affordable of the high-end solutions (note the high-end). There is also XMind, whose export options I have not tried.
They should all be able to import tab indented text outlines, which notepad2 should be able to provide.
It is almost embarrassing to conclude that the majority of outliners we discuss here are quite under-featured in terms of providing well formatted output for sharing further. In particular, most two-pane outliners cannot even print the outline tree.
Anyone know if Sense will output presentable reports?
Sense is brilliant for organising, reorganising, reusing and editing, but I don't think it's ideal for producing reports. In particular, it has some significant inconveniences in integrating tables and images; the developer is aware of these issues and their improvement is on the roadmap (note that I have not tested the very last version, so I may have missed something).
If you want to work on something that will be easily turned into a presentable document, my suggestion is to use one of the mainstream mind mapping products out there. MindView is by far the best in terms of creating beautifully formatted output. MindManager is the most popular, and MindGenius is probably the most affordable of the high-end solutions (note the high-end). There is also XMind, whose export options I have not tried.
They should all be able to import tab indented text outlines, which notepad2 should be able to provide.
It is almost embarrassing to conclude that the majority of outliners we discuss here are quite under-featured in terms of providing well formatted output for sharing further. In particular, most two-pane outliners cannot even print the outline tree.
Dr Andus
2/11/2013 9:22 am
Magenda wrote:
Well, if you like Notemap, then Outline 4D should work for you, as it's based on the same principle: single-pane outliner with inline notes. Check out my review for the different visualisations available:
http://drandus.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/outline-4d-for-drafting-and-reverse-outlining/
As you can see in my review, 4OD interface is highly customisable, so how "garish" it is will depend on you. You can have it in all black and white, if you prefer.
As for printing, it can do pretty much everything and more than your usual outliner. It can print all the views above, and a wide variety of settings are customisable. It can do stuff that even MS Word can't do. But you can always export it to Word as RTF and format it further.
Beware that Write Bros only give you 5-day trial. Also, they are they most expensive. You can get the box for less from private sellers on Amazon USA or the download edition from http://www.writersstore.com/outline-4d/
I will go back to Notemap2
Well, if you like Notemap, then Outline 4D should work for you, as it's based on the same principle: single-pane outliner with inline notes. Check out my review for the different visualisations available:
http://drandus.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/outline-4d-for-drafting-and-reverse-outlining/
"4D" looks garish, but if it would let me pop my Notepad outlines in and
manipulate them better, I would go for it. Does it give a good printed
output, formatted presentably?
As you can see in my review, 4OD interface is highly customisable, so how "garish" it is will depend on you. You can have it in all black and white, if you prefer.
As for printing, it can do pretty much everything and more than your usual outliner. It can print all the views above, and a wide variety of settings are customisable. It can do stuff that even MS Word can't do. But you can always export it to Word as RTF and format it further.
Beware that Write Bros only give you 5-day trial. Also, they are they most expensive. You can get the box for less from private sellers on Amazon USA or the download edition from http://www.writersstore.com/outline-4d/
Dr Andus
2/11/2013 9:26 am
P.S. and ignore all the marketing hype about the "Timeline View." The outliner can be used wholly independently from the Timeline View, no knowledge of the latter is necessary to use the former. It's like having two separate software packaged into one: outliner + timeline view.
Stephen Zeoli
2/11/2013 2:01 pm
Another option, if you're looking for a clean, simple interface is ActionOutline:
http://www.actionoutline.com/
It's an older app that lacks some common info management features such as tags, but it handles text nicely, and out puts it to a decent RTF file.
Steve Z.
http://www.actionoutline.com/
It's an older app that lacks some common info management features such as tags, but it handles text nicely, and out puts it to a decent RTF file.
Steve Z.
Listerene
2/11/2013 2:32 pm
Scrivener is way-overkill for what (it seems) you need. For a one-pane outliner, I've got the big love for UV Outliner (think the old DOS GrandView, updated). For a two-pane outliner, take your pick of the dozen or so freebies; CherryTree (portable) for instance (it's basically a freeware version of Treepad, the granddaddy of them all). The Guide, Treedbnotes free, Rightnote Free, All My Notes Free, yada, yada, yada are other choices.
Basically, Scrivener is a glorified 2-pane outliner with a few more bells & whistles designed for (mainly) novelists. Not that it isn't good (it's my main choice for fiction writing) but for most uses it's an unnecessary expense.
Basically, Scrivener is a glorified 2-pane outliner with a few more bells & whistles designed for (mainly) novelists. Not that it isn't good (it's my main choice for fiction writing) but for most uses it's an unnecessary expense.
Listerene
2/11/2013 2:32 pm
Scrivener is way-overkill for what (it seems) you need. For a one-pane outliner, I've got the big love for UV Outliner (think the old DOS GrandView, updated). For a two-pane outliner, take your pick of the dozen or so freebies; CherryTree (portable) for instance (it's basically a freeware version of Treepad, the granddaddy of them all). The Guide, Treedbnotes free, Rightnote Free, All My Notes Free, yada, yada, yada are other choices.
Basically, Scrivener is a glorified 2-pane outliner with a few more bells & whistles designed for (mainly) novelists. Not that it isn't good (it's my main choice for fiction writing) but for most uses it's an unnecessary expense.
Basically, Scrivener is a glorified 2-pane outliner with a few more bells & whistles designed for (mainly) novelists. Not that it isn't good (it's my main choice for fiction writing) but for most uses it's an unnecessary expense.
Stephen Zeoli
2/11/2013 2:45 pm
Listerene wrote:
Scrivener is way-overkill for what (it seems) you need. For a one-pane
outliner, I've got the big love for UV Outliner (think the old DOS
GrandView, updated). For a two-pane outliner, take your pick of the
dozen or so freebies; CherryTree (portable) for instance (it's basically
a freeware version of Treepad, the granddaddy of them all). The Guide,
Treedbnotes free, Rightnote Free, All My Notes Free, yada, yada, yada
are other choices.
While I agree that UV Outliner is a nimble single-pane outliner with some nice features, unless it has improved in the past few months, its biggest weakness is its limited export function, which I think makes it unsuitable for Magenda's purpose -- unless I've mis-read his needs.
Steve Z.
Listerene
2/11/2013 3:23 pm
Never had a problem with exporting UV Outliner documents to .rtf. ... what kind of problems *should* I be having?
Dr Andus
2/11/2013 3:24 pm
Stephen Zeoli wrote:
It's an interesting question as to what "nimble" means in this context. It might be subjective. It could refer to startup and processing time (which was a problem I had with Scrivener for Windows until the latest update) or to ease of use (e.g. no. of steps required for data entry and manipulation).
In the latter sense I didn't think UV Outliner (and Inspiration) was "nimbler" than Bonsai (when I last tried it months ago), though the former have the added benefit of having inline notes. As for O4D, I find it fairly quick to use (loads of keyboard shortcuts), but it can't compete on price with UV Outliner :)
While I agree that UV Outliner is a nimble single-pane outliner
It's an interesting question as to what "nimble" means in this context. It might be subjective. It could refer to startup and processing time (which was a problem I had with Scrivener for Windows until the latest update) or to ease of use (e.g. no. of steps required for data entry and manipulation).
In the latter sense I didn't think UV Outliner (and Inspiration) was "nimbler" than Bonsai (when I last tried it months ago), though the former have the added benefit of having inline notes. As for O4D, I find it fairly quick to use (loads of keyboard shortcuts), but it can't compete on price with UV Outliner :)
Stephen Zeoli
2/11/2013 3:39 pm
Listerene wrote:
Never had a problem with exporting UV Outliner documents to .rtf. ...
what kind of problems *should* I be having?
I think if you re-read my post you won't find the word "problems" anywhere. If you are happy with the RTF output, great; no need for me to tell you that you should be disappointed. If you're interested, however, here is what I wrote about UV Outliner last summer, including MY disappointment at the output results:
http://welcometosherwood.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/onenote-smack-down-i-uv-outliner/
Again, it is possible output has been improved since I wrote that.
Steve Z.
Stephen Zeoli
2/11/2013 3:41 pm
Dr Andus,
My view of what "nimble" means is that you can quickly bang out an outline -- that means that the application becomes as transparent as possible as you write. Agreed that this is a very subjective definition.
Steve Z.
My view of what "nimble" means is that you can quickly bang out an outline -- that means that the application becomes as transparent as possible as you write. Agreed that this is a very subjective definition.
Steve Z.