I know that a number of you have been posting about plain text, and its advantages.

My understanding is that Zoot is plain text -- is that correct?

Also, in terms of plain text editors, such as NoteTab, is there one that allows you to have more than one window open at a time, so you can work back and forth among windows without having to use tabs?

When I write, I like to have several windows open at a time. That's what I like about Zoot, IH, QuickNotes, and Ariadne.

If any of the aforementioned programs that I use are plain text, do I need a separate text editor?

Is there some place on the web that gives a very simple intro to plain text?

Thanks.

Daly

Daly de Gagne wrote:

Also, in terms of plain
text editors, such as NoteTab, is there one that allows you to have more than one window
open at a time, so you can work back and forth among windows without having to use
tabs?

EditPad Pro, my favorite text editor for Windows, has tabbed windows and allows multiple windows as well (Ctrl+Shift+N).

http://www.editpadpro.com/

MetaPad, which is free and is very light-weight, also allows more than one instance of itself, though it does not support tabs.

It can be found at: http://www.liquidninja.com/metapad/

Regards,
Wes

Wes, thanks. Can it have two or more windows open at the same time, or are you always having to tab back and forth?

Daly

Wes Perdue wrote:

Daly de Gagne wrote:

>Also, in terms of plain
>text editors, such as NoteTab, is
there one that allows you to have more than one window
>open at a time, so you can work
back and forth among windows without having to use
>tabs?

EditPad Pro, my favorite
text editor for Windows, has tabbed windows and allows multiple windows as well
(Ctrl+Shift+N).

http://www.editpadpro.com/

MetaPad, which is free and is
very light-weight, also allows more than one instance of itself, though it does not
support tabs.

It can be found at:
http://www.liquidninja.com/metapad/

Regards,
Wes

Daly, Zoot is plain text in the sense that there is no formatting of text available. However, Zoot does not store its data files in plain text. I seem to remember that it's fairly easy to export out to plain text from Zoot - I think it is done by "printing" to a file.

Chris

Daly de Gagne wrote:

My understanding is that Zoot is plain text -- is that correct?

Daly de Gagne wrote:

Wes, thanks. Can it have two or more windows open at the same time, or are you always
having to tab back and forth?

Daly

Daly,

I regularly have two EditPad windows open, one on each of two monitors. You can choose to have tabs if you like, but they're not essential.

Regards,
Wes

We, I have downloaded the free version of EditPad, and like the fact I have the choice of tabs and/or multiple open windows -- which makes it great for writing.

I am not yet clear on the difference between the free version and the pro version, but it looks like the free version is all that I would need.

Thanks.

Daly

Wes Perdue wrote:

Daly de Gagne wrote:
>Wes, thanks. Can it have two or more windows open at the same
time, or are you always
>having to tab back and forth?
>
>Daly
>

Daly,

I
regularly have two EditPad windows open, one on each of two monitors. You can choose to
have tabs if you like, but they're not essential.

Regards,
Wes

Daly de Gagne wrote:

We, I have downloaded the free version of EditPad, and like the fact I have the choice of
tabs and/or multiple open windows -- which makes it great for writing.

I am not yet
clear on the difference between the free version and the pro version, but it looks like
the free version is all that I would need.

Thanks.

Daly

Excellent; I'm glad you like it. The pro features I use every day include regular expression search. I'm an IT manager, and I regularly need to do complex search and replace procedures to reformat data when moving it from one place to another.

I also use the spell check feature regularly, as I prefer to write into EditPad and then paste into other applications. Hexadecimal mode is also incredibly useful to me. Finally, I use it regularly to compare two different versions of files.

Enjoy!

Regards,
Wes

Hi Daly,

There are a lot of good single-pane plain text editors around - free and shareware. Most are - not surprisingly - oriented towards programing, or use with markup (like html, etc), but also make excellent writing environments. As Wes says, EditPad Pro is a good one, and there is also a free version (Lite) with tabbed editing and multiple windows.

Once one moves into two-pane editors (aka outliners, notetakers, etc.) things get more complicated. File structure is more complex because of their topic+note structure. Users also want to styling and formatting, which means a rich-text editor. And the ability to store images, which means that file-size has to be kept down, and so developers start using compression.

With some exceptions, once one moves away from single-pane plain text editors, it is harder to work in plain text. NoteTab outline files and and InSight catalog files are still more-or-less plain text and very readable. WhizFolders, Jot+ and KeyNote files (to take some common examples) are somewhat less so because of file compression, rich-text and sheer complexity. The main practical drawbacks here are that one loses the simplicity of plain-text editing, and also that search software find it more difficult to index and display search results in a readable form.

As Wes points out, the same applies to Zoot at the storage level. Although Zoot uses plain text for editing, its *.zot files are quite complex, although much of the data is still in readable plain text. Although the files can be indexed and searched, though, it is often easier to output to html and search that file instead.

As I use Zoot for a lot of my data-collection, organization and planning, and as it only uses a simple plain text editor, it has made me think seriously about postponing all styling until much further down the "composition" road, until it goes into MS-Word for final formatting. Hence my interest in plain-text editors, especially those with the ability to produce plain-text topic+note outline files (like NoteTab or InSight). A possible way of working might be Zoot, Brainstorm (also plain text), NoteTab Pro, and finally Word...

There are other options though. As Ian Goldsmid said in June the new WhizFolders beta seems to offer the possibility of allowing Zoot items to be hyperlinked to WhizFolder nodes and notes. Since WhizFolders has a reasonably "kindly" writing environment, offers both topic+notes and conventional file formats, tabbed and multi-window editing, etc., this is probably worth exploring, too.

Sorry this turned out to be rather a screed...

Derek

Hi Daly,

don't forget to try the professional editors like EmEditor, Ultraedit (and Boxer):
You can have an outline within the text (you can define the indicators for the levels, f.e. indents, or A), B) ... ), you can create an "outline" of the texts with a foldertree (explorer-plugin) and you can quickly "format" your text via free definable syntax highlighting (f.e. I create headlines by letting the editor display in colour and bold the line after A), B) .....)
There is also autocomplete as you type (nice for often used technical expressions).
There are many more very useful text editing features (search and replace in disk files, macros, move lines up/down, indent ....).
For organisation I use a rather simple filetree together with tags. I prefix the tags with "::", so they are easy to find and can be easily replaced = rename of a tag. Most are placed in the first line of a text file after "Tags>". So f.e. to tag many files at once I can search for the files to tag and than replace in all found files "Tags>" with "Tags> ::newtag").

best regards
Christian

Chriss, Derek, Wes and all, I have now downloaded EditPad, UltraEdit, and Emeditor -- talk about a major CRIMP attack -- must be the devilishly short hours of daylight on the Canadian Prairies at this time of year.

So, any thoughts on how they compare with each other, or what I should be looking for?

Are these particular programs all more or less the same, or are there important differences I should be aware of?

One must for me is being able to have multiple windows of the same or different docs open at the same time for moving stuff back and forth, and I know that EditPad does that, as well as offering tabs, which is also something I want.

Thanks for your help.

Daly

Since this is an outliner site I'm obligated to mention Vim, http://www.vim.org/ in this thread.

I've been using UltraEdit for years but recently began learning Vim. I need to do more and more on Linux these days and feel helpless without a good text editor there. Vim, which is free, runs on Windows and Linux, and I've begun using it instead of UltraEdit.

Vim is extremely powerful but difficult to learn. If you want to live in a text-only world, however, it'd be a worthwhile tool to master because there are many handy features - from split screens/tabs to plug ins that will launch links (http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=293 to support for plain-text formats like Markdown (http://plasticboy.com/markdown-vim-mode/

And it has an outliner: the Vim Outliner, http://www.vimoutliner.org/ which supports folding, hoisting and other standard outlining features. It says at http://freshmeat.net/projects/vimoutliner/ that its features are comparable to "MaxThink, Grandview, ThinkTank, and more" but I haven't used those so can't say myself.

Daly -

This CRIMP thing must be going around Kansas, too...

One must for me is being able to have multiple windows of the same or different docs open at the same time for moving stuff back and forth, and I know that EditPad does that, as well as offering tabs, which is also something I want.

AFAIK, they all do multiple windows and tabs. For me the most interesting looks like EmEditor Pro 6, because of its outlining plugin, and its use of plugins in general. Mark's recommendation of Vim and Vim Outliner is interesting, especially as Vim is often used with LaTeX, but I've always been rather put off by stories of its difficulty.

As these editors are mostly used for programing, I've found few discussions about their use for general-purpose plain-text editing and manipulating, which was why Chriss's comments were so helpful. All of the ones mentioned are similarly highly specified though.

None of these editors, as far as I can see, combines plain-text editing with the two-pane topic+note structure the way that NoteTab and the rather expensive DataOmega InSight do. Although this structure only allows a crude form of text manipulation and is not to be confused with that provided by single-pane outliners, it can be very useful for the later stages of writing - e.g., moving drafted chunks of text around easily within an overall organization such as a book or article.

Derek




Derek

Derek,

If you're looking for a plain text editor with a hierarchical tree structure, take a look at Treepad Lite, which is free: www.treepad.com

It doesn't have a lot of editing bells and whistles, but it does the basics quite nicely.

Steve Z.

Derek Cornish wrote:

None of
these editors, as far as I can see, combines plain-text editing with the two-pane
topic+note structure the way that NoteTab and the rather expensive DataOmega
InSight do. Although this structure only allows a crude form of text manipulation and
is not to be confused with that provided by single-pane outliners, it can be very
useful for the later stages of writing - e.g., moving drafted chunks of text around
easily within an overall organization such as a book or article.

Steve, so does Treepad Lite actually save in plain text or is it a special Treepad file?

Daly

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

Derek,

If you're looking for a plain text editor with a hierarchical tree
structure, take a look at Treepad Lite, which is free: www.treepad.com

It doesn't
have a lot of editing bells and whistles, but it does the basics quite nicely.

Steve
Z.

Derek Cornish wrote:
>None of
>these editors, as far as I can see, combines
plain-text editing with the two-pane
>topic+note structure the way that NoteTab
and the rather expensive DataOmega
>InSight do. Although this structure only
allows a crude form of text manipulation and
>is not to be confused with that provided
by single-pane outliners, it can be very
>useful for the later stages of writing -
e.g., moving drafted chunks of text around
>easily within an overall organization
such as a book or article.

Daly de Gagne wrote:

Steve, so does Treepad Lite actually save in plain text or is it a special Treepad
file?

AFAIK you can save (export) nodes either as text, Treepad or HTML files.

Jack

Daly de Gagne wrote:

Steve, so does Treepad Lite actually save in plain text or is it a special Treepad
file?

Hi, Daly,

The Treepad Lite files (which have a *.hjt extension) are in fact text files with code built in. I opened the Manual.hjt file that comes with Treepad Lite in NoteTab and have extracted the first node from that file. Here it is:


dt=Text

TreePad User Guide
0

TreePad Lite 2.9.4 User Guide
======================

Updated April 21, 2002

This guide also applies to TreePad Asia 2.9.4

-----------------------------------------

TreePad Lite and TreePad Asia are freeware versions of our flagship product, TreePad PLUS.

If you want more features, including:

- Styled text
- Hyperlink support
- Website creation

...and much more, download a free trial version of TreePad PLUS at www.treepad.com

-----------------------------------------

This user guide was written by Andy Fielding and Henk Hagedoorn.

For writing and editing services, contact Andy Fielding at www.andyfielding.com

5P9i0s8y19Z

Steve Z.

Steve -

Absolutely right; I'd completely forgotten about Treepad, which I haven't used for years. As you say, the file format is virtually all plain text with a sprinkling of non-ASCII stuff - rather like the old DOS PC-Write files, and perfect for indexed searching. I expect a lot of the other earlier generation of two-pane tree-type of editors also used plain text - like Skwyrul, Golden Section Notes, etc.

Derek

Chriss, Derek, Wes and all, I have now downloaded EditPad, UltraEdit, and Emeditor—talk about a major CRIMP attack—must be the devilishly short hours of
daylight on the Canadian Prairies at this time of year.
So, any thoughts on how they compare with each other, or what I should be looking for?

Daly, these three programs are all very capable with Ultraedit perhaps the most complete one. All support syntax highlighting, tree view, spell check, macros, outlining = code folding.
It's more a mattter of taste (EditPad Pro lacks search and replace in files). You can try just one of them, I would recommend Ultraedit (very good forum) or Emeditor (slim, plugins).

There is one thing I want to add regarding the text only approach.
I used many information managers but I never put much information outside the document itself (organisation, tree, ...) because this is so difficult to export/import. So I always tried to get as much as possible directly into the text (title, tags, links, dates). Fe. instead of attachments I use file-links (which are easily invoked via double clicking even in editors).
So it's easy to transport the information between different programs (to alleviate the effects of CRIMP).

Best regards
Christian

Christian -

I used many information managers but I never put much information outside the document itself (organisation, tree, ...) because this is so difficult to export/import.

Excellent point. Zoot's developer also mentions the advantages of building metadata into the data itself when it is important - for example, by using delimited fields rather than relying on temporary dynamic features like virtual folders. This information can then be retained when exporting from Zoot.

Derek

Derek Cornish wrote:

Steve -

Absolutely right; I'd completely forgotten about Treepad, which I haven't
used for years. As you say, the file format is virtually all plain text with a
sprinkling of non-ASCII stuff - rather like the old DOS PC-Write files, and perfect
for indexed searching. I expect a lot of the other earlier generation of two-pane
tree-type of editors also used plain text - like Skwyrul, Golden Section Notes, etc.

=========
Derek & All:

You need to be aware that the files created by the latest versions of TreePad (and many other Pims) are highly compressed. One can search within a currently open file, but if one wishes to use a search program to search several files at once, one has to convert each to a .txt file first.

This is one reason I'm considering the purchase of InfoSelect. It doesn't put all of one's notes in a single file, but can search all of the files with one command.

-c

Cassius -

There does not seem to be a problem with *.hjt files used by TreePad Lite, though (see Steve Z. above). Some other PIMS have options to turn off compression and encryption, too - though, of course, this makes a difference to performance.

Derek