I've been using Dynalist for a few years now and I've had gripes with it for a long time, specifically with its really clumsy syncing process. Every time I open a document, it goes through the spin-spin-spin-spin cycle for 15-20 seconds, BEFORE it displays the document, before I've added add any edits. This happens when I go from one document to another, spin-spin-spin-spin. Unfortunately, it doesn't let me sync on mobile, AFTER I've added edits. Backwards!

The only reliable way to sync it is on my computer, and there is a sync button on the tablet version, which works but only sometimes. There isn't any way to choose sync on my phone. I've wasted so much time, turning my phone upside down and sideways, randomly and repeatedly sliding my finger up and down and sideways, before that spinning infinity symbol finally shows up.

Even after I have clicked sync, I can never be entirely sure that my edits have been reliably saved. On a number of occasions, I clicked sync three times, then I came back to the document only to discover my recent edits were not there. Not saved, not saved, not saved. So I have to memorize what I just typed in, go to another document, then check back to find out if my edits are still there. Unreliable!

The computer version doesn't even work right. It randomly flips from the view where the folders are visible alongside my typing pane, into the view where they're not, putting the plus and minus signs wayyyy over to the side. The only way to get that to work is to fiddle with the width of the window. So frustrating.

Anyway... I'm looking for something else.

I don't need an outliner with a task manager, I've already got Remember the Milk. I don't need any bells and whistles, no fancy display graphics. Just a straight up outliner where I can indent and unindent, collapse and expand groups of text and drag them around. An outliner that lets me reliably SAVE my work.

Any suggestions?

P.S. the outliner in Word is not an option, for lots of reasons.

Well, Dynalist was kind of a WorkFlowy imitation, so WorkFlowy springs to mind, which has evolved since then, and has none of the problems you're describing...

I second the Workflowy recommendation. Although I haven't had the bad experiences with Dynalist you have had. There is also Checklist:

https://checkvist.com

It has task features, but you don't need to use them.

I'd be interested in learning about other options.

Steve

Workflowy is looking great, although I have a question: can I put documents inside of folders? Dynalist has folders, even nested folders, but I'm not finding any results online when I search about folders in Workflowy.

I would be transferring tons of documents into it, and I'd definitely need to group them into folders. Search wouldn't be sufficient.

Tiggerlou wrote:

can I put documents inside of folders?

Yes. Search is your friend!

https://workflowy.com/learn/files-images/

https://workflowy.com/learn/

You can upload files (PDFs, docs, images, etc.) directly into Workflowy by dragging and dropping them into a bullet or using the upload command.

Every every item ('bullet') in Workflowy can be nested infinitely so you can create a structure that *acts* like folders and documents using nested bullets. A top-level bullet can be like a folder and sub-bullets underneath can be like “documents” or sections of content. When you upload a file, it becomes an attachment inside that bullet; if that bullet is nested under another it effectively lives “inside” that project or folder-like structure, and some filetypes like PDFs can be previewed inline.

Free users have a 100MB total file cap, while Pro subscribers get unlimited uploads with a 5GB per-file size limit.

You mention "the computer version" but don't say what OS you're using. If you specify your setup and additional specific uses you need to replicate in Dynalist you might get additional app suggestions.

Uhh...nope.

The problem is, I have HUNDREDS of documents, grouped very neatly into a series of nested folders. I'd have to put absolutely every one of those documents underneath one uber header that includes them all. One huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge document, with an infinite series of indents ....indents ....indents, until the bottom line of each document only has room for a few characters, with the text wrapping around into the next line and the next and the next. What a mess!

With a folder pane alongside the documents, I can pop into any one of them instantly. No problem. But if I have to use a word search to find a document that would bring up every single instance where that word was used, instead of the folder title, so I'd have to plow through that tangled mess to find the header / folder I want. That sounds like a massive, totally unnecessary headache.

Nuh-uh.

And I really don't care that I can include images, pdfs, etc. I don't need checkboxes or colors or fancy formatting with hashtags.

I want an outliner that lets me organize a huge amount of plain text, so I can find what I'm looking for easily. Putting all of those separate outlines into one outline? Nope.

I looked at Tana a little, but was put off by all the AI.

My dream outliner lets me outline and keep a repository of notes, all integrated together.

You are wise to steer clear of Word's outline mode. I think the reason it's there is to serve the self-loathing demographic.

Some options to consider:
* Notion allows you to outline and nest pages inside each other (where a page acts as a folder) or create database pages (no outline)
* Logseq is an outliner with separate pages
* Obsidian supports folders and notes, and you can add an outliner plugin since its normal mode is paragraphs
* Capacities has an outliner mode

And one more that is literally a plain text outliner: Innovation Dilation's Indigrid

Thanks for assembling this list!

Notion appears to be specifically designed for fiction writers. I don't need features about character development or multiple columns, with lots of cutesy icons bouncing around. Call me a purist ;-)
Logseq doesn't use folders. Instead, it uses completely different --and rather complicated-- features for its organization, which I admit, look intriguing. But I'm wary of taking on a really sharp learning curve, especially if this means manually translating the tree structure of my hundreds of documents into a whole other organizational structure. Not sure it's worth that much trouble.
It looks like Obsidian requires setting up hotkeys to perform basic outlining functions to make it behave like other outliners. It also looks like there's an extra fee for syncing across devices. I need to look further into it, because there appears to be much more here than just an outliner.
Wondering if Capacities' outliner mode is similar to the outliner mode in Word (not a fan). In other words, is outlining just an optional way to view the text, instead of its native mode?

Cyganet wrote:

Some options to consider:
* Notion allows you to outline and nest pages inside each other (where a
page acts as a folder) or create database pages (no outline)
* Logseq is an outliner with separate pages
* Obsidian supports folders and notes, and you can add an outliner
plugin since its normal mode is paragraphs
* Capacities has an outliner mode

The website says "no cloud", that the data never leaves your computer. I'm guessing that means it doesn't sync with other devices.

Cyganet wrote:

And one more that is literally a plain text outliner: Innovation
Dilation's Indigrid

I just added a bunch of notes about each of these options into Dynalist. It went through the laborious spin-spin-spin cycle, supposedly syncing / saving. But by the time it let me see the document again, all the edits were gone. Vanished.

This does not inspire confidence.

To be perfectly honest, what I really want is a version of Dynalist --without the bugs.

A nested folder structure with the same fairly simple editing capabilities. No complicated organizational structures to learn how to use. No hotkeys to memorize, no sophisticated brainmapping, or cutesy bouncing icons.

Just a version of Dynalist where the saving / syncing actually WORKS, instead of randomly losing important data. And a folder pane window that stays put, instead of occasionally disappearing.

I would love to keep using Dynalist if it wasn't just so bleeping buggy.

Tiggerlou wrote:

Thanks for assembling this list!

Notion appears to be specifically designed for fiction writers. I don't
need features about character development or multiple columns, with lots
of cutesy icons bouncing around. Call me a purist ;-)

I'm not sure where you ended up, but Notion isn't novel-writing software.

Tiggerlou wrote:

Uhh…nope. The problem is, I have HUNDREDS of documents
... Nuh-uh.
And I really don't care that I can include images, pdfs, etc. I don't
need checkboxes or colors or fancy formatting with hashtags.

And that's why when you have questions about apps you should detail your setup and your specific needs.

what I really want is a version of Dynalist—without the bugs.

You still haven't stated the OS you're using, so without providing sufficient info you may not get the best responses.

>Notion appears to be specifically designed for fiction writers.

Uhhh... nope. Nuh-uh.

Oh! Well then, maybe there's more than one by that name. I'll keep looking for it.

Cyganet wrote:

Tiggerlou wrote:
Thanks for assembling this list!
>
>Notion appears to be specifically designed for fiction writers. I don't
>need features about character development or multiple columns, with
lots
>of cutesy icons bouncing around. Call me a purist ;-)

I'm not sure where you ended up, but Notion isn't novel-writing
software.

Apologies for not being clear. I'm on Windows 11, but my mobile devices are iOS.

Tiggerlou wrote:

Apologies for not being clear. I'm on Windows 11, but my mobile devices
are iOS.

Also unclear whether you're asking for a cross-platform solution then. I would assume not since you're talking about keeping your files local but... you don't say.

I'm fully in the Apple ecosystem so perhaps others here can better assist you with Windows software. Good luck

I wonder why you're having trouble with the delayed syncing. I can open any of my outlines in Dynalist instantly -- I am using the browser version. I use it on my MacBook with Safari, and in Windows 11 with Chrome. Both work very fast. So I wonder if something else is influencing the poor behavior. Maybe if you can solve that, you can stick with Dynalist, which sounds like it is perfect for your needs... if you could only get it to work properly.

Yes, i agree. Dynalist works very well for my needs, except for the bugs with syncing.

It's not only slow when it syncs, it's REALLY unreliable. On multiple occasions, I have gone from one document to another, then back to the first, only to discover that my previous work had not been saved --even though I clicked sync!

Because of that, I have to memorize all my edits, every single time, so I can put them in again. One a couple of occasions, I had to re-enter the edits three times, even though I went through the spin-spin-spin cycle telling me I had fully synced.

If those problems could be solved, then I wouldn't need anything else. Wondering if there is a forum for Dynalist users. I should look into that.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I wonder why you're having trouble with the delayed syncing. I can open
any of my outlines in Dynalist instantly -- I am using the browser
version. I use it on my MacBook with Safari, and in Windows 11 with
Chrome. Both work very fast. So I wonder if something else is
influencing the poor behavior. Maybe if you can solve that, you can
stick with Dynalist, which sounds like it is perfect for your needs...
if you could only get it to work properly.

Wondering if there is a forum for Dynalist users. I should look into
that.

No sync issues for me on Mac and Android, but I am not a heavy user.

The usar forum is here: https://talk.dynalist.io/

And on Discord too: https://discord.gg/cUQMdgR

I, too, have been looking for something for *just* outlining and unfortunately, even today, it seems like the best option might be Org-Mode...

Have you filed a bug report? Before I give up on software I've invested years in, I'll always ask staff for help. If there's no staff response, then leaving is maybe the right option.