OK, guys. If anyone is going to give me a good answer to this, you all will.

For a number of reasons I'd rather not get into, I'm spending most of my time in Linux now a days. I can run Windows programs in a virtual machine but I hate doing it because almost everything else is done outside of it. My search for a quality Linux outliner has proven fruitless. My favorite Windows programs by far are things like Ecco and Zoot. I'll also give a tip of the hat to Infocube. None of these runs under Wine and there isn't a native Linux or Java program to compare with them.

So I've resorted to the web. Right now I'm using Gmail, Google Reader and Google Calendar and they all fit my needs. But the task implementation in Google is totally inadequate and they don't have anything close to an outliner. I had hopes for Google Notebook but its a pale reflection of the Windows programs mentioned above and its now defunct anyway. I've also tried Evernote (Web) and Zoho Notebook. These don't cut it.

I've actually gone back to Lotus Agenda (running under dosemu, a DOS emulator) which is, of course, among the most functional programs around but, well, its DOS.

Any suggestions for a really good web outliner?

Thanks,

Tom S.

This isn't really my area, but I just wanted to point to the online version that Inspiration is developing at http://www.mywebspiration.com

While it is still in beta, it looks very powerful - virtually a replica of their flagship product which includes one of the industry's very few text and graphical outliners

I'll let the resident gurus take over now. ;-)

Jack

Great to hear that Linux covers most of my needs. I am still working on my own transposition; I love the OS, but there's several Windows applications I still rely on for my daily work. Re outlining in Linux, I don't know if you've tried NoteCase Pro ( http://www.virtual-sky.com ) which has been discussed here in the past; it's cross-platform, very powerful and constantly developed.

To web outlining; the applications I remember having read about here are:
Checkvist http://checkvist.com/login
iOutliner http://www.ioutliner.com/
list.it http://groups.csail.mit.edu/haystack/listit/
Microsoft Listas http://listas.labs.live.com/

For me, none of the above comes even close to a capable PC-based outliner, but others' opinion may differ.

However, a similar kind of webware that seems to be developing rapidly is mind mapping. If you can live with the appearance, the underlying concept is more or less the same and some of the apps are quite powerful. Examples include:
Mindmeister http://www.mindmeister.com/
Mind42 http://www.mind42.com/
Bubbl.us http://bubbl.us/
Webspiration - web version of Inspiration http://www.mywebspiration.com/ (Beta, currently closed)

There's many more; see the whole list at http://www.mind-mapping.org/ and some reviews at http://mindmappingsoftwareblog.com

By the way, the same goes for Linux; capable mindmapping applications such as FreeMind and XMind are also available there. Like it or not, it seems that 'graphical outliners' such as mind mappers are drawing in more interest than classic outliners.

P.S. The first line should have been: "Great to hear that Linux covers most of YOUR needs." (I guess that was wishful thinking aloud on my part).

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

There's many more;
see the whole list at http://www.mind-mapping.org/ and some reviews at
http://mindmappingsoftwareblog.com

Once again, Alexander, thank you for the informative link. One program that I noticed because it was supposed to have an iPhone/iPod Touch App was LooseStitch. Unfortunately, I could find no trace of it at Apple's App Store. The program does sound interesting if it had a portable companion.

In addition, if its just task management that one needs, I have been trying out Toodledo for the past few weeks and it seems worthy of consideration.

--Ken

If you're running Linux and not averse to text-only programs like Lotus Agenda, you should seriously give Emacs org-mode a try. Virtually everything in Ecco is in there, and a lot, LOT more. Plus it's under very active development. The downside is it lives within Emacs.

http://orgmode.org/

-- Chris

Thank you all for the informative replies. I'll be kept busy checking these links out. I'll let you know what I find.

I had a brief look at a couple. I had no idea that Notecase Pro was cross platform. Thanks. It is, in fact, close but yet so far away. I wish the folders were tags and the tags were folders. The web apps were interesting and ioutliner, in particular, looks like it has potential. But I couldn't find a way to search (could have missed it). I'll take a closer look at the mindmapping links.

Seems like I tried orgmode some years ago. There was something about it I didn't like but I should really take another look at it.

Tom S.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

Great to hear that Linux covers most of my needs. I am still working on my own
transposition; I love the OS, but there's several Windows applications I still rely
on for my daily work. Re outlining in Linux, I don't know if you've tried NoteCase Pro (
http://www.virtual-sky.com ) which has been discussed here in the past; it's
cross-platform, very powerful and constantly developed.

To web outlining; the
applications I remember having read about here are:
Checkvist
http://checkvist.com/login
iOutliner http://www.ioutliner.com/
list.it
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/haystack/listit/
Microsoft Listas
http://listas.labs.live.com/

For me, none of the above comes even close to a
capable PC-based outliner, but others' opinion may differ.

However, a similar
kind of webware that seems to be developing rapidly is mind mapping. If you can live
with the appearance, the underlying concept is more or less the same and some of the
apps are quite powerful. Examples include:
Mindmeister
http://www.mindmeister.com/
Mind42 http://www.mind42.com/
Bubbl.us
http://bubbl.us/
Webspiration - web version of Inspiration
http://www.mywebspiration.com/ (Beta, currently closed)

There's many more;
see the whole list at http://www.mind-mapping.org/ and some reviews at
http://mindmappingsoftwareblog.com

By the way, the same goes for Linux; capable
mindmapping applications such as FreeMind and XMind are also available there. Like
it or not, it seems that 'graphical outliners' such as mind mappers are drawing in more
interest than classic outliners.

I thought I'd follow up on this out of deference for the other members of the group.

I didn't think any of the web outliners suited my needs though some may eventually get there. IMO they just weren't flexible enough, yet. The graphical outliners are more flexible but I just don't think I'd be able get used to using mindmaps and they tend to be too clumsy to suit what I want to accomplish.

I gave org mode a very long look and it definitely deserves mention. This is a very interesting program that runs within emacs and it has flexibility like crazy. You could spend a very long time messing with it. Be warned that the learning curve is extremely steep, especially if you aren't familiar with emacs. Fortunately it has good documentation with a very good manual.

Everything ends up in an outline in one or more files. Items can be assigned multiple tags and key-value property pairs. In the end I decided against it because it's better suited to people who live in emacs (which I no longer do). I also thought it might be a bit clumsy for use if you were interested in cross filing items and generating ordered lists in different views. Indeed, there are no views, per se. Just search results that would be very hard to order sufficiently unless one had them ordered correctly in the file(s) to begin with.

In the end I shelled out the money for Notecase Pro. Its not Ecco but its good enough. Folders and items are set up as nodes and sub-nodes which may contain notes. A sub-node may be cloned and the clone may be moved to another node. When changes are made in the original, they are reflected in the clone and vise versa. Effectively this is the same as assigning an item to multiple folders at once. Very nice and very necessary for me.

It has reasonable task management capability. It can generate flat lists. It has scripting capability though I haven't messed with it much yet. Its graphical, using rich text and you can embed images. Very active development with new versions roughly monthly. Solid enough to where I haven't found any bugs (yet).

The program needs improvement. There's no way to tell where all of the clones are located in the tree like in Ecco. The node flags and the task status are hard coded and not configurable (though you can use your own tags). No columns like in Ecco. The search facility needs to be more flexible though its not bad by most standards.

Nevertheless as the cross-platform programs that I looked at go, this one was pretty good. I liked it enough to buy a lifetime license (it wasn't cheap - roughly $150 US). There are cheaper, more limited, licenses that run more or less $50. There is a free version which is missing much of the above functionality.

Cheers to all who helped out with suggestions.

Tom S.

Tom, many thanks for the feedback. I share most of your conclusions on web tools, both outlining and mind mapping ones. I'm glad that you chose Notecase Pro and hope that it will work for you. I have a cross-platform license myself, but looking at the development pace, the lifetime one is probably a better deal!

I should note that Miroslav, the developer, is very open to suggestions. Clones were my first feature proposal just after I bought the program and he implemented it a couple of months later (I assume that I wasn't the only one who asked for it, but I was very pleased indeed). It's not surprising that there are still several rough edges in such features which are fairly new.

There is a discussion group at http://groups.google.com/group/notecase-pro which is quite active, especially considering that it's less than a year old.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

I should note that
Miroslav, the developer, is very open to suggestions. Clones were my first feature
proposal just after I bought the program and he implemented it a couple of months later

And a very good suggestion it was. This feature basically sealed it for me so he can thank you personally for $150 worth of business. :)

I'm glad to hear that he's so responsive. I will probably email some suggstions to him, myself.

Tom S.