I've been reflecting on this whole Working From Home thing (in principle, a CRIMPer's dream!), and after, yet again, having had to untangle yet another appalling administrative mess perpetrated by one of our major corporate clients (a client who should know better – and in fact has many processes in place that theoretically mean no such mess should happen in the first place), I realised something interesting.

When I first started working for a larger company, I learned an awful lot from working alongside much more experienced people, each of whom had their own personal methods for getting things done. They were all characters, and they didn't all always follow standard procedures (although they had devised all kinds of cunning "I did really, honest" compromises). But they were, on the whole, very efficient, because they knew exactly what they were trying to achieve and enjoyed the interactions and teamwork involved in getting there (not always, of course; there are always a few things which everyone hates doing!)

In a pure WFH environment, that opportunity to watch/listen to more experienced and often very different people in action pretty much disappears. Lots of little opportunities to learn from their methods, the way they interact with others (or don't!), their little warnings or encouragements, their persuasive tricks or prevaricatory cunning – how does a WFH environment emulate that? I honestly don't think it can – and I speak as one who works in a small company that virtualised its working environment many years ago.

I know this isn't directly related to outliners (well, actually, it isn't related at all!). But it is, I think, related to knowledge management and in particular, knowledge transfer. As well, of course, as human psychology (ultimately at the root of all knowledge management).

Has anyone else thought about this? Are there WFH solutions that could replace an in-person learning experience (based on personal observation rather than standard e-learning techniques)? I'd love to know.

Cheers!
Bill

That's a very interesting observation. Steven Johnson in his book Where Good Ideas Come From says ideas come from networks. Here's a quote from his Ted talk:

"We take ideas from other people, people we've learned from, people we run into in the coffee shop, and we stitch them together into new forms and we create something new. That's really where innovation happens."

So how do we establish those networks working from home?

Building 20 on the MIT campus built during WWII to help bring science to the war effort is alleged to have been such a great incubator of ideas because of the disparate fields of expertise of its occupants, and the informal way they could network.

In some ways, the web (and forums like this) can mimic that in person interaction. But is it enough?

Very good question, Bill.

Steve

I think that documenting what you do - for yourself and for colleagues, coworkers, virtual assistants etc. - is more important than ever in the WFH workspace. Not only because there is usually no one who you can look over the shoulder. And it gets easier than ever: You can, for example, use a video-capture tool such as Camtasia (expensive but worth it) or free alternatives such as Loom to quickly record the steps you take. Or you use screenshots (WINDOWS+SHIFT+S does the trick in Windows).

All good points, Franz, but not quite the same thing as being able to watch an actual person in action, talking on the phone (not, of course, such a frequent occurrence nowadays!), cajoling suppliers, calming clients, etc.

But I guess one could put together such a system, and maybe even devise classes based on it. Video would certainly be more "personal" than mere writing (and I'm sure I'm not alone in finding that many people don't read more than half an e-mail in any case. Young people nowadays !)

Hm, there's a really interesting training opportunity here for someone – not unlike the real-world case studies they use in business schools.

Role-playing is something that used to be very popular, too, but I've recently had the impression that it's not used as much as it was (perhaps because of the gradual fadeaway of direct personal contact). And yet in many ways, it's more important than ever before.

Franz Grieser wrote:

I think that documenting what you do - for yourself and for colleagues,
coworkers, virtual assistants etc. - is more important than ever in the
WFH workspace. Not only because there is usually no one who you can look
over the shoulder. And it gets easier than ever: You can, for example,
use a video-capture tool such as Camtasia (expensive but worth it) or
free alternatives such as Loom to quickly record the steps you take. Or
you use screenshots (WINDOWS+SHIFT+S does the trick in Windows).

I don't think there is a way to replace in-person in-office interaction with co-workers and customers, in a WFH situation. I don't think it's hyperbole, but looking back over my career as I changed jobs and responsibilities, I cannot count the hundreds of interactions that proved to be irreplaceable in terms of knowledge and skills. Including the times I effed up and the facts of life at corporation "X" were explained to me, rapidly, in detail. LOL

Most of interchanges these were casual, in-the-hallway, waiting-for-the-elevator, going-to-the-parking garage types of engagement with co-workers or supervisors. Most of these interactions didn't "bear fruit" then, but paid me back weeks, months or years later. When look back over the decades, I always remember these conversations more than I remember the work I was actually doing.

The work we do in offices is ephemeral -- not much of it matters beyond the time we do it. But what we can receive from others in person is irreplaceable and over the long-term makes us who we are. Good and bad, of course.

And I don't think this can happen the same way with the same results, over Zoom or Teams or Slack or whatever, the same way it happens in person. If I were starting out today, and had to think of a lifetime of Zoom hell, I think I would head for Montana and find work on ranch.

A very nice summary, Paul: totally agree. Yes, it's those moments of truly human interaction that remain embedded in the memory. In one of my earliest jobs, I remember regularly observing one of the most experienced senior project managers at work setting up major projects with multiple external suppliers – it was a joy, and taught me so much about writing short but coherent briefs, explaining in words of one syllable, persuading the recalcitrant, chasing the delayed, and so on.

Working with one of the directors on negotiations with clients was equally enlightening. As you say, I can't remember the actual projects, but I do remember the lessons!

Paul Korm wrote:

I don't think there is a way to replace in-person in-office interaction
with co-workers and customers, in a WFH situation. I don't think it's
hyperbole, but looking back over my career as I changed jobs and
responsibilities, I cannot count the hundreds of interactions that
proved to be irreplaceable in terms of knowledge and skills. Including
the times I effed up and the facts of life at corporation "X" were
explained to me, rapidly, in detail. LOL

Most of interchanges these were casual, in-the-hallway,
waiting-for-the-elevator, going-to-the-parking garage types of
engagement with co-workers or supervisors. Most of these interactions
didn't "bear fruit" then, but paid me back weeks, months or years later.
When look back over the decades, I always remember these conversations
more than I remember the work I was actually doing.

The work we do in offices is ephemeral -- not much of it matters beyond
the time we do it. But what we can receive from others in person is
irreplaceable and over the long-term makes us who we are. Good and bad,
of course.

And I don't think this can happen the same way with the same results,
over Zoom or Teams or Slack or whatever, the same way it happens in
person. If I were starting out today, and had to think of a lifetime of
Zoom hell, I think I would head for Montana and find work on ranch.

WFH is different, but I've been doing it since about 2002. Covid was a tragedy but did not affect my work life.

I use Timelime (that's how it's spelled) to track what I spend my days on when projects get hectic. A spreadsheet would work well, too.

Personal time tracking is not to force me to task, it's defense against folks saying I didn't get to their stuff quickly enough.

A more specific thread title would have been welcome, but whatever: I dare say you're wrong.

With all due respect, and that's not ironic, I respect even those who don't respect me, I have never ever got any suggestion, any impulse from either this forum or then the almost defunct donationcoder forum of any value - I'm very sorry, but that's the blatant truth. (I have not frequented any other fora, except for some specific software ones, the askSam, UR and MyInfo fora come to mine, and the same observation applies to them, with the technical exception of the AS forum where some German, "Flo", obviously "Florian", had awful insight into many things; I deeply regret the demise of askSam, and thus of its forum in its time... but for all the rest, "forget'em", all'o'em either don't know much, or then don't share anything.

(There's a technical "exception" in the donationcoder forum, "share/shadow..." or somewhat - I currently don't remember his full name, and I cannot identify him at this time since I don't have access to donationcoder anymore at this very moment: he's extremely knowledgeable about technical stuff of all kinds, but as for conceptional matters, I rely on my own thinking, including my thoughts about the failures and errors of third-parties...

On the other hand, I've got valuable ideas - and I never then considered them my own, and always gave, have given and give the appropriate credentials - from brilliant individuals' works... and sometimes even, and that's more often than not, those brilliant individuals' ideas just reflect, confirm and validate mine, and then again, I say so, cf. my thread of today, and yes, when you remain honest about the genesis of your ideas, you've got some right onto people believing you when you say that some third-party's idea that you mention (and then follow-up or not (yet)), has also been your own, before reading that third-party's publication.

Whatever, and let's face it: On the one hand, this forum is, has become, the "standard" one now for "outlining and similar" things, and then, most "contributions" over here are dispensable, very unfortunately...

Perception of value is a skill.

22111 wrote:

most "contributions" over here are dispensable, very unfortunately...

I agree entirely...

tightbeam wrote:

I agree entirely...

Today, tightbeam wins the Internet.

22111 wrote:

most "contributions" over here are dispensable, very unfortunately...

So, why do you keep coming here flooding the forum with long, long, long dispensable postings?
Why not just keep a journal on your local computer and spare us of your ramblings?

Heh heh, I think it's probably a philosophical thing. Fundamentally Nietzschean, when you think about it (right down to the lengthy rants about how useless everyone else's contributions are).

Franz Grieser wrote:

22111 wrote:

>most "contributions" over here are dispensable, very unfortunately...

So, why do you keep coming here flooding the forum with long, long, long
dispensable postings?
Why not just keep a journal on your local computer and spare us of your
ramblings?

A friend who lurks here from time to time messaged me "Rogue AI? ߤ–"

If you combined any dozen words at random from the rant, I wonder if they would make more sense than the rant itself.

Ha! Exactly what I thought!

The shame is some of his musings are about things like alternate hierarchies, which interest me quite a bit.

I also use some tags for common content, subtags for references. Tags don't have to serve just one purpose.

Before I forget, I'd like to offer my sincere appreciation for being tolerated here. I've learned a lot.

satis wrote:

A friend who lurks here from time to time messaged me "Rogue AI?
ߤ–"

No tolerance required – you regularly contribute really interesting stuff, which is the main requirement for a forum, at least as I see it?

22111 would contribute really interesting stuff if ca. 75% of what s/he writes didn't consist of highly critical attacks on developers or relatively trivial issues. The conceptual content is often thought-provoking.

Amontillado wrote:

Ha! Exactly what I thought!

The shame is some of his musings are about things like alternate
hierarchies, which interest me quite a bit.

I also use some tags for common content, subtags for references. Tags
don't have to serve just one purpose.

Before I forget, I'd like to offer my sincere appreciation for being
tolerated here. I've learned a lot.

satis wrote:
A friend who lurks here from time to time messaged me "Rogue AI?
>ߤ–"