I think it's probably a very good thing

that a "thought tools" thread in which a figure like "Chomsky" (what about hunger camps for the un-"vaccinated" - who should be "separated from society", and then, even their food would "be their problem" - some people dispute he said such things? what do I know, from all the web's alleged news and alleged fake news?) was mentioned in context with Einstein,

quickly was hijacked by fountain pen collectors, oh yeah.

This thread was about tools for thought - fountain pens are tools for thought, and not just items for collectors. Your disdain is somewhat offensive in this context.

Some of us are concerned with how longhand notes play a role in a very computerized world.

You may also recall that a very real concern about anti-Semitism arose in this thread in the context of one of the major figures in the fountain pen world, and that contributed to the number of fountain pen related posts, in part because I was unaware of the particular situation until it was mentioned here.

Lastly, not all outlines are created on computers. Some people use lead pencils, and others use four-colour BIC pens or fountain pens.



22111 wrote:

I think it's probably a very good thing

that a "thought tools" thread in which a figure like "Chomsky" (what
about hunger camps for the un-"vaccinated" - who should be "separated
from society", and then, even their food would "be their problem" - some
people dispute he said such things? what do I know, from all the web's
alleged news and alleged fake news?) was mentioned in context with
Einstein,

quickly was hijacked by fountain pen collectors, oh yeah.

Daly de Gagne wrote:

This thread was about tools for thought - fountain pens are tools for
thought, and not just items for collectors. Your disdain is somewhat
offensive in this context.

My first thought was a paraphrase of Captain Jack Sparrow's advice to Will Turner on Will's challenge in the blacksmith shop.

Do you think this wise, crossing quills with a wordsmith? :-)

But don't read any snark into that quip, please. I live to write and can't pass up an opportunity for repartee.

Amontillado - no snark there that I could find! I love the quote and the repartee!

Back when I was a journalist, I had a friend in the bureau, and he and I often had these crazy, funny conversations. He'd say we were a couple of bantering rams.

Cheers,
. Daly

Amontillado wrote:

Daly de Gagne wrote:
This thread was about tools for thought - fountain pens are tools for
>thought, and not just items for collectors. Your disdain is somewhat
>offensive in this context.
>

My first thought was a paraphrase of Captain Jack Sparrow's advice to
Will Turner on Will's challenge in the blacksmith shop.

Do you think this wise, crossing quills with a wordsmith? :-)

But don't read any snark into that quip, please. I live to write and
can't pass up an opportunity for repartee.

Sometimes, people look up to the wrong persons - not because their idols are worthy of it, but because they, the admirers, the fanboys, want to be part of a "followers' community, and whatever the "content" whenever the "message" is appealing -, and sometimes, people use unqualified instruments for taking notes - fountain pens slowing your notetaking down, and, notwithstanding what they might naïvely "think" of that allegedly being a "good thing" - about "time to think it over" and it all -, it's a bad one, since it's all about the necessary speed to scribble down ALL aspects of "your late husband" while the "yoghurt" lasts (cf. https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/9786/0/maps-eg-etc )...

for editing then, you might even use paper printouts indeed, but possibly scribbling into them with a pencil (not Ikea's free but too short ones, of course); and there's the problem of well- (even author-) readable handwriting being quite rare among thinkers (whilst 15-year-old school girls nowadays not writing but the strict, legally-enforced minimum anymore to begin with - to cite the perfect example of perfect handwriting readability) - so even if you use a "dictation" system instead (see my clarification over there, today), which, from speed considerations would then allow you to "write it down" by fountain pen, readability concerns should probably make you decide otherwise.

And, of course, I meant it was a good thing the discussion was deflected from "thinking" around a "thinker" whose "thinking" is highly debatable - to put it as courteous as it gets -, by ANY other subject, I just dared name that one: my gosh!

Fountain pens "unqualified" for taking notes?! Surely you jest! I always have believed it is the notetaker who needs to be qualified for the task at hand. Part of that qualification would be knowing what tool is best suited for a particular notetaker given her/his preferences and the kind of notes to be taken. Much as I like my laptop and tablet, there are times I want to take notes with one of my fountain pens. Of course, each person is different, and your milage may vary. Luhman, the great German sociologist, managed quite well with pen and paper for his notes.

Correction - that should be Niklas Luhmann.

When I skimmed all of the above, I didn't discover though, in your discussion, a core element: the nib HAS to be 18k gold instead of 14k (or even lower). I myself own - from that time - 6 or 7 fountain pens, all from relevant brands, incl. Montblanc (14k again), and the main reason I haven't touched them for decennials is the fact that after having tried (both "brand-new" (in the shop) and "written-in" (from a co-worker) Montblanc 18k fountain pens ("149", of which the price seems to have more than doubled over the last years) - now the "149" is very big, and unfortunately, for many hands, of which mine, this model is much to broad (that's why I didn't then buy one myself), but its nib, too, and the tinier Montblanc's I tried, in the time, as well as my own from them, all came with a 14k nib, but those nibs, too, are much tinier.

The difference is spectacular (sic!), and I suppose it's mostly due to the 18 vs 14k difference, but the size of the nib could also play into it.

Also, in the time, some people said the "Omas" brand was even better than the Montblanc 149 - personally, I never found that brand, so can't say. More, there seems to be an also quite (i.e. too?) big Pelikan 18k nib model which I never tried.

Also, the relative size of the nib POINT should play some role, too "fine" being bad at last, and the broader the point the better, so you will be "forced" to adopt a broader handwriting: good if that comes naturally to you (most "149" come with broad nib points and are mostly used for signing papers, in practice).

Hence:

- you should beware of any 14k or "lesser" model (e.g. "Lamy" and such, where the nib isn't even gold, are really, really bad) of any brand (incl. the "very best" ones)

- with the (quite few) 18k models, you should try out nib size, even an 18k but tinier nib might disappoint you

- ditto then for the nib point size

- and which MIGHT come to say that if your handwriting AND your hand ain't both big enough, you will NOT find an ideal fountain pen for writing.

Of course, you can always buy some as prestige good.

Oh, and only use high quality paper for writing with a fountain pen - that will also "help" with lesser makes.

And finally, several of my fountain pens being in silver 925, others in bakelite (or whatever), the latter are much more pleasing than the former in your hand, and for gold bodies, certainly the same would apply.

After-thought: Some of my fountain pens even emerged too thin for heavy writing, so that's another problem you might NOT encounter at the shop counter yet but just afterwards when it's too late...

(I would prefer to get practical advice in these pages, your mileage might vary though as they say.)