I am a linguist.
I have been using various tools for organizing and collecting information. Linguistics is a bload field, and there are lot of ideas, theories and data to catch up on. I used to collect a lot of cool ideas: planning to use them one day. I used to think that once I have collected and organized these great ideas, I will be better thinker and produce better results.

I was wrong.

Collected and organized notes are useless after some time. I either forget about them, or I don't know why I wrote them in the first place. I have thousands of notes lying in various places--most collected by reading various sources. Worst of all, I dislike them once sufficient time passes.

- I had thousands in Tinderbox.
- A lot of Devonthink
- still even more within Obsidian.

Re-reading the notes after a few years, I often lose the sense that I had when I was writing them. I have moved on in different directions; and what I thought were so interesting ideas at the time are not more interesting.

Probably,
- My interest has changed
- My focus has changed
- My philosophy has changed
, or all of them.

And, I find that most of the cool ideas I had a few years ago are no more cool. I don't like them. I indeed, end up deleting them.

I find most of the notes I wrote a few years ago pretty useless for the current me.

Even the snippets I had in Evernote long time ago, appear so awful when I see them now. I used lack focus man; feel like I used be immature and childish for collecting these nonsensical, immature essays from the web.

- I used to read the online entries in the New York times. Fuck them man, their stuff is boring! Why do I need to read that fluff? It is not even interesting!
I mass deleted all the entries from that source from my Evernote.

This made me to think that the idea that notes are used to store information (knowledge) for a long term is misguided. There is no permanent storing or organizing of knowledge. Knowledge is highly transient stuff. At least our interest on a specific type of knowledge is pretty transient.


So, that made me to change my mindset.
Yes, I need to think of myself as writer than a knowledge worker. That is the only way to be a truly productive person.

Now, if I got a cool idea, I am not going to store it somewhere for future me. I am going to do sth with it.

I put it in a draft; or in Scapple file.
I open a write project around it.
I search, read and enrich it.

I write a shitty draft that will be ready to be published.

This mentality doesn't require long term organization and storage of ideas. What you need is just a couple of tools--
As a writer, what I need is:

- a good selection of sources to read, collect ideas around the project at hand--Foxtrot works best here. I also use DT for creating associations.
- A tool to sketch ideas, shuffle them around, and make sense of different snippets of ideas I get from the sources--Scapple works great here.
- A temporary drafting or writing software. I am using Keep it for this. Curiota also works great.

I have now deleted every file organization system I had; from Tinderbox to Obsidian to Evernote including every markdown writing tool (I used to have many of them, heck). I am now saying good by to markdown system altogether because the whole idea behind it was long term storage (plain text longevity). I don't care about the longevity of my notes anymore. I am going to publish them if they are worthy; or throw them away if they are not. Markdown is trash; neither a complete system nor a simple one. RTF works great because I can highlight text, comment in a different color ,or mark a text bold without much fuss: I don't need a separate viewer; and can snap an image into it with no problem.

A result is what we all need. isn't it?

I think I am getting better results with this mindset than I have ever been.
A collector mindset is a misguided mindset.

It is better to get results now and here!

What is DT?

Devonthink

I use DT for just two purposes:


1. I put my draft (or a couple of lines of text which contain the most important keywords of my project) in the database, and ask it to suggest the closest/similar articles in my database--using the "see also" feature. I check those paper if they have any valid point to note, to add or to modify on my draft (ideas growing to a coherent work).

2. Once I read the articles to read, I pick them there within the app and read them--with Annotation Pane (or Keep it) on the side to collect the relevant points.

Dellu, interesting post thanks for sharing. I find myself undertaking a parallel reassessment of my own computing and information management habits. I have tried to pare down my tools as much as possible to stock Mac applications and whittle some of my recurring subscription costs. Like you, however, I find Devonthink indispensable for managing data and references and have even come to rely on it as a writing environment much of the time. I’m an academic scientist and DT is my research notebook and portal for primary literature that I collect and curate with Bookends. The outstanding search engine and decent PDF annotation tools have obviated my need for other PDF software, except for occasional cropping or labeling that I do in Preview.

I also tried to love markdown but use .rtf files for most notes that require formatting. A lot of the writing that I do is shared with students, collaborators, journals, or funding agencies and have to pass through Word or end up as a PDF, so the extra steps necessary to convert from markdown are a burden. Also many documents I write have to fit within proscribed page limits and often incorporate figures (plots, images). For writing within page constraints and placing figures, markdown makes no sense. I understand that there are some sophisticated tools for page layout, but the activation energy required to learn additional tools like Latex is too high and I find myself just firing up Word or Pages to get work done.

Dellu,

I completely agree with everything you've expressed, here, although I have almost no articles, just personal notes, instructions and lists. My must important notes are in a notebook (I couldn't handle a crash or lagging device in an urgent situation).

I've cleaned out and deleted Cloud Outliner Pro, and am working on getting through the other platform specific apps - Bear, Apple Notes, Samsung Notes, etc. for reasons you've listed, and many more.

Everything is dumped in Evernote or Notion, now & eventually I'll choose between them. At least, I have colored text where desired, search, and I'm not tied to any specific device.

Your new approach to writing sounds optimal. Very decisive. I hope it all goes well for you.

Sarah

Thank you for the nice words dear Sarah & steve-rogers.

I am sharing my experience here because some people might find a motivation to get down to the actual production: rather collecting endless notes and information with no clear end result in the sight.

I absolutely dislike the Zellel culture now floating all over the Internet now days. I find it extremely dysfunctional for technical subjects including Linguistics. If you look carefully, all the proponents are using for lighter subjects such as Sociology and the like.---if you are reading a light book where the points are very spare, Zetteling will work. But for dense subjects, you are going to end up zetteling every line of the book: which defeats its purpose.


And, I think the lure towards it is misguided; and going to misguide a lot of folks.

- waste a lot of time, accumulate a lof of notes and .-- finally get no results and trash them all--it is very immature way of life; constant experimentation with no clear end goal.

I think thinking hard on " what is my the ultimate purpose" is the most important thing before being lured into any flashy and fashionable tool/gadget.

Asking this question hard made me to close my door to a number of new stuffs; not just the software, but on hard wares as well.


- I have now decided to use my old 2011 macbook pro for the next 10 or so years. (note that I have upgraded the Ram and SSD). Why?
Because the new fast computer is not going to write the essay for me. The configuration I have now is more than sufficient to generate great results. What I need is a better brain, not a better computer. If some of the reversed authors used type writers to produce works that stand generations, why can^t I use this old mac for the next 10 or so years?
(so far as it is working fine, there is no real need to change it).

One of the reasons why I want to keep the old mac is because it will not allow me to upgrade software as well. I will be deliberately and happy stuck on MacOS 10.13.

- I am not going to upgrade software. The newer software are harder and heaver for the old hardware; with little or no practical functions for the end user (for me).
- Freeze everything I have right now: Bookends, Devonthink, Foxtrot, Keep it; everything--because they are really perfect in the state they are right now.
- I have uninstalled Chrome, and replaced it with Seamonkey: it is much better for the hardware: never makes the CPU run crazy--can open most websites with no problem. I can run it all day with no impact on memory or CPU.
- Texstudio is also fixed as well on version 2.12: I cannot even upgrade it. It is amazingly perfect piece of software already. why do I need to upgrade it anyways?

And, focus on what matters the most: the end result.

Lots to appreciate here. I think the practice of note-taking has been caught up in a broad sweep of late, a kind of “do you even Zettel, bro?” and lots of people citing Luhmann (who apparently didn’t even originate the practice). Still, there are base principles that I’ve extracted and found useful— the function of “networked thinking” in creating pathways through connected thoughts, the utility of notes vs highlights, etc. I think you’re right in that some of us probably take more notes than we need or will ever use, and that the fetishisation of note systems can get in the way of producing things, much the same way as fiddling with productivity systems can get in the way of actually getting meaningful things done.

I continue to take notes for various reasons, personal and professional, in an app that isn’t often mentioned as a “knowledge management tool” or “second brain” but serves me incredibly well. A relatively small number of my notes are connected and for some (many?) of them the document is less valuable than the process; the thinking I did as I made the note is more valuable than the note that exists by the time I’m finished.

Harking back to Luhmann again: if he was able to be so productive with a stack of index cards, the rest of us mere mortals can probably get by without obsessing about all the contemporary bells and whistles. Progress is a wonderful thing, and I admire what I’ve seen some people with some really involved workflows. Took me a minute to appreciate that my brain works differently from theirs, and that the more moving parts a workflow/system depends on, the less likely it is that I’ll maintain it.

Maybe some of this is about having a really good personal filter, learning how to figure out what actually works for us individually in the face of emergent practices that seem to become ubiquitous and essential (while still being open to improvements and learning from others)?

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, Dellu, for getting it started with your thoughtful posting about your experience.

Your ideas about note taking fit somewhat with my thinking. I've always been suspicious of the Zettlekasten method for my note-taking needs. Obsessive linking seems more distracting to me than helpful. I am sure Zettlekasten works well for some, but I have come to doubt its efficacy for most people. Although I will add this caveat: perhaps it gets people who wouldn't otherwise have decided to take extensive notes to do so, then I would say it is good.

I prefer to take project-directed thoughts. By that I mean I gather notes to tackle a project. Tag- or folder-based organization works better for me than bi-directional links. If I need to "surface" information, I can do so with the search function. This approach also allows me to choose the right information-management tool for the job. Sometimes an outline works great. Other times I need a more visual tool for organizing my ideas and information for the project at hand.

I am more of a project manager than a researcher, so this may account for how my views have evolved.

Steve Z

Dellu wrote:

Devonthink

Thanks.

Yep, loved @Dellu's thoughts on "why take notes at all?" – it's a question I regularly ask myself as I work through my thousands of notes and delete most of them.

Of course you change, and so does the world around you. But your resolution to actually do something with stuff you come across immediately is a great response.

On the other hand, sometimes stuff does "mature" if you leave it for a while and then come back to it (and I speak as a fellow linguist here!). And those notes can be the most valuable ones of all. Those are the ones I don't delete.

I share many of the views in the thread.

I find the evangelism around markdown a productivity trap - there are too many useful things that you can't do, or not without a convoluted workaround. I like the idea around plaintext but find most of the systems rubbish. I like easy headings, I like folding. But if I want to move stray words and phrases around, it's easy in Word but not markdown. I have always done my writing in simple text, I don't need markdown, and editing works much better in Word.

I have pretty well always written in projects. I do find wikilinks extremely useful - but that's as part of a current workflow, not as part of a long-term knowledge system. And wikilinks aren't in markdown, although some markdown PKM apps use them, and are used in a variety of programs, some of them rich text.

I think the criticism of Luhmann and his zettelkasten overdone. His actual process was very much centred on writing and projects and he didn't collect masses of dead thoughts. His was an active thinking system. The issue, I feel, is the recent reimagination of zettelkasten, largely led and popular with students whose main idea is that it's a way of stuffing more facts into their recalcitrant brains. They feel in urgent need of a second brain. And their ideas are centred on knowledge not thinking. Even thinking of his zettels, Luhmann would be able to track through them and see how his ideas had developed and what hie might have missed and where he might have gone wrong. If it wasn't active, it was simply junk in the attic.

I've written some in Markdown. I'm glad it's available.

At the other end of the spectrum, I get good use out of Mellel, but currently I'm straying back to Nisus Writer Pro, my other go-to word processor.

It is not as reliable and stable as Mellel, which kind of bugs me, but in fairness it's hard to find the rough edges in Nisus.

And, of course, it's much more flexible than Markdown.

My experience has been a lot like OP, I only use Obsidian now but have stuff scattered across other apps and platforms. Once in a blue moon I actually will need to look for something really old, but more often than not most of my old notes have little value to me in the present.

But I am sticking with Obsidian because it's versatile and relatively lightweight (easily passes the Moby Dick test on my 2013 MacBook Air.) I don't obsess over deep linking but with some forward and back-linking here and there I find it easier to locate recent notes than with a folder-based system.

I agree. But can't generalize, also depends on the field, genre, person, her quality level, etc. Faulkner wouldn't need a computer, nor Einstein, but their assistants would have been much more useful to either with them.

That's what I said a few times here, the biggest tool is the mind, but nobody talks about how to develop that for productive and/or creative purposes much, just software. Sort of software fetish.

BTW the guy in the clip below in silver on TV, Larry David who created Seinfeld and then Curb your enthusiasm, has a unique genius note taking system, secret to his success but you won't find anything on that online + his mastery of his field & genre which took decades.

Dellu wrote:

I find most of the notes I wrote a few years ago pretty useless for the
current me.
Even the snippets I had in Evernote long time ago, appear so awful when

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E33Z7-gY_js

My comment here asks,
*How can we make information stores more of a flow than just a “static" store?*
...

Dellu wrote:

I am sharing my experience here because some people might find a
motivation to get down to the actual production: rather collecting
endless notes and information with no clear end result in the sight.

... Yes, indeed!

I think thinking hard on " what is my the ultimate purpose" is the most
important thing before being lured into any flashy and fashionable tool/gadget.

... Yes, again.

... Thank you, Dellu for this valuable, thought-provoking thread.
I hope you'll offer more of your thinking and your progress on these topics.

I used to collect a lot of cool ideas: planning to use them one day.
Worst of all, I dislike them once sufficient time passes.

... Planning to use when??
And where??
Any bit of Information increases in value if we add “when” and “where” (project).
What are productive ways to do that?

... What about expiry dates for automatic deletion?
“If not used/updated by 1 January 2023 then DELETE.”
Or WARN of pending deletion.

... And “where/project” deletion, also.
I had lots of information bits and half-written articles about expat living in a foreign culture.
Then my publisher changed his business focus about the time I changed my writing focus.
Instead of deleting those ideas one at a time, how to delete that entire “macro” category.
Wipe that slate clean.

- My interest has changed
- My focus has changed
- My philosophy has changed
most of the cool ideas I had a few years ago are no more cool.
Knowledge is highly transient stuff.

... Valuable perspective.
*So how do you make your information stores MORE transient, MORE of a flow, to coincide with the nature of knowledge, rather than just a “static store”?*

...

steve-rogers wrote:

I have tried to pare down my tools as much as possible

... Instead of paring down tools, I would be interested to hear how you pare down your information;
How you focus on the important, the profitable, the critical items.