https://thesweetsetup.com/obsidian-vs-roam/

TLDR: "Unfortunately, it’s impossible to pick a single winner."

I think it's actually early days for these types of apps, especially with all manner of apps starting to offer similar features like backlinks. But the article gives a nice overview of both apps and how they things like notes, publishing, theming, backlinks and more.

This is a pretty good piece. Two things I wished they'd added:

1. Obsidian is working on a WYSIWYG editor which will replace the plain text/preview approach for those who want it. Considering the pace of development so far and where they are on their roadmap, I imagine we'll see this fairly soon.

2. Roam offers steep discounts for those who can't afford it or who use Roam for education. You just have to write and ask.

Also worth reading their post on Roam as a task manager which is linked in that article:

https://thesweetsetup.com/using-roam-research-for-gtd-style-task-management/

The article suggests that Roam is not as secure? Is this true? How far away are Roam's ios apps?

I'm currently using bear, drafts, Standard Notes and Omnioutliner. Could either Roam or Obsidian replace these? My use case is teaching and sermon prep, plus running a church/charity.

Roam does come across as more polished ie their tasks and block backlinks. Am I right in assuming that Roam allows the adding of other docs like pdfs, but Obsidian is pure text? Does Obsidian parse dates?

I think you can see where the overlap is, the question is how much you need the additional linking features, and how much you're willing to migrate to apps with pretty restricted typography/theming compared to OmniOutliner or Bear.

Speaking of Bear, I've tried it many times but just didn't gel with the UI and the limited font choice, and never really found it measurably better *for my own needs* than Apple Notes. You might find this recent comparison article interesting, from someone who used Bear for years then switched to Ulysses

https://woorkup.com/ulysses-review/

(Did Bear ever finally add search inside notes?)

Although OmniOutliner seems relegated to maintenance mode, it's still the most powerful pure standalone outliner for Mac and iOS, and your files remain locally (and synced via iCloud) in your control. If you're looking to switch Roam is probably a better all-in-one app as its outlining functionality remains better than Obsidian's (although I prefer Obsidian's sister app/service Dynalist for outlining.

But overall I'm wary of using Roam - because of its UI/look, it's relative lock-in, the dramatic growth of competitors adding backlinks, the pricing, and the CEO's promotion of 'cult' status for the app (alongside a small, vocal contingent of noisome fanboys for the product on Twitter and Reddit).

I am a promiscuous dabbler when it comes to apps for writing, note-taking, task management, pinboards, and kanbans, but I'm very conservative when it comes to switching to another app. Right now, for example, I've paid for the one-time Premium upgrade of UpNote and am using it as an Apple Notes replacement, but for my needs in most ways it barely improves on Apple Notes, mainly offering backlinks but lacking the macOS menubar quick-note feature I like so much in SnipNotes. The most recent version of the app replaced some fonts without notice, but added some features like page info.

And I think that with Roam and Obsidian you'll also see that the apps are similarly in flux, with features added and improved and the apps leapfrogging each other in different ways. I feel like this is still early times for this particular type of outliner/notetaker and I'm not ready to abandon my current core apps until something become too compelling not to switch.

Simon wrote:

The article suggests that Roam is not as secure? Is this true?

That's certainly true, and the article explains it very well: Obsidian uses local files, while Roam stores the data in the cloud. With Obsidian you have the option to keep everything on your local computer only, and even if you use Obsidian sync, you have end-2-end encryption and the data is only stored on the synced devices. It is not stored anywhere in the cloud.

I did the test period with Roam, but didn't sign up because of the cloud storage, and the help documentation was a mess. I figured if they cannot document their program for people considering a purchase, then I probably wouldn't want to know whether the sausage making in the background is being done carefully.

I've used Obsidian since it was first introduced, and now I am also using the mobile version which is quite good. The mobile version does not (yet) have a share extension so getting info from other programs into Obsidian mobile is fiddly for now. I assume that gap will be filled at some point. The community-contributed plugins for Obsidian are wonderful. The developers made a wise decision early on to make Obsidian a platform extensible by users with no entry fee.

It is certainly possible in Roam to store all your files locally, which is as secure as your laptop is, but then there is no way to sync between devices. Obsidian offers a paid secure sync service, or you can use a third party sync service if you trust it (Dropbox, Apple's iCloud, etc.)

Note: originally Roam made storing your files offline a premium feature, but they lately lifted all restrictions so anyone can have as many offline databases as they like.

Couple of points here, just for info:

Bear’s search function is exceptionally good – general searches automatically extend to individual notes and highlight search terms in those notes accordingly (unlike most other notetaking software). Actually, it’s always been pretty good, so I’m a bit surprised at the criticism. Ulysses is great, but locks you into its proprietary database. While it’s perfectly possible to export Ulysses content (as e.g. markup files), it’s not possible to use Ulysses files with anything other than Ulysses. There are good reasons for this, of course.

UpNote does in fact put a quick note icon in the Menu Bar, which works perfectly well. You can also kick off searches from the Menu Bar.

satis wrote:

I think you can see where the overlap is, the question is how much you
need the additional linking features, and how much you're willing to
migrate to apps with pretty restricted typography/theming compared to
OmniOutliner or Bear.

Speaking of Bear, I've tried it many times but just didn't gel with the
UI and the limited font choice, and never really found it measurably
better *for my own needs* than Apple Notes. You might find this recent
comparison article interesting, from someone who used Bear for years
then switched to Ulysses

https://woorkup.com/ulysses-review/

(Did Bear ever finally add search inside notes?)

Although OmniOutliner seems relegated to maintenance mode, it's still
the most powerful pure standalone outliner for Mac and iOS, and your
files remain locally (and synced via iCloud) in your control. If you're
looking to switch Roam is probably a better all-in-one app as its
outlining functionality remains better than Obsidian's (although I
prefer Obsidian's sister app/service Dynalist for outlining.

But overall I'm wary of using Roam - because of its UI/look, it's
relative lock-in, the dramatic growth of competitors adding backlinks,
the pricing, and the CEO's promotion of 'cult' status for the app
(alongside a small, vocal contingent of noisome fanboys for the product
on Twitter and Reddit).

I am a promiscuous dabbler when it comes to apps for writing,
note-taking, task management, pinboards, and kanbans, but I'm very
conservative when it comes to switching to another app. Right now, for
example, I've paid for the one-time Premium upgrade of UpNote and am
using it as an Apple Notes replacement, but for my needs in most ways it
barely improves on Apple Notes, mainly offering backlinks but lacking
the macOS menubar quick-note feature I like so much in SnipNotes. The
most recent version of the app replaced some fonts without notice, but
added some features like page info.

And I think that with Roam and Obsidian you'll also see that the apps
are similarly in flux, with features added and improved and the apps
leapfrogging each other in different ways. I feel like this is still
early times for this particular type of outliner/notetaker and I'm not
ready to abandon my current core apps until something become too
compelling not to switch.

Luhmann wrote:

Note: originally Roam made storing your files offline a premium feature,
but they lately lifted all restrictions so anyone can have as many
offline databases as they like.

Sounds interesting. Are offline databases in Roam as functional as those in the cloud? Are they in a proprietary format or can they be easily processed by tools other than Roam? (Obsidian uses only Markdown files which can be easily processed and used outside of Obsidian.) Removing the ability to have local notebooks was the final straw that made me move from Evernote to Obsidian.

Unlike SnipNotes

http://i.imgur.com/XFYcSxP.jpeg

UpNote's menubar utility does not permit you to access notes or write quick notes when the app is quit - it only persists when the app is open, and I have never been able to make a quick note without it popping the full app from the background.

Bear has had search issues in the past, serious enough that a lot of people complained on Reddit and elsewhere, and decamped to other apps.

MadaboutDana wrote:

Couple of points here, just for info:

Bear’s search function is exceptionally good – general
searches automatically extend to individual notes and highlight search
terms in those notes accordingly (unlike most other notetaking
software). Actually, it’s always been pretty good, so I’m a
bit surprised at the criticism....

UpNote does in fact put a quick note icon in the Menu Bar, which works
perfectly well. You can also kick off searches from the Menu Bar.

@MadAboutDana this is what I was referring to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bearapp/comments/mhyu0z/is_there_a_way_to_search_on_page_in_bear/

"he search function will take me to a page but after opening the page I have to read through it to find the item I’m searching, a big inconvenience on long notes. I cannot find a way to search for it on the page itself."

to which the dev replied:

"In regards to in-note searching for iOS specifically, this is something we'd love to improve upon. This is becoming a popular request, and is something we're definitely looking into."

*Becoming* a popular request... four years after the app was introduced. ߧ

MadaboutDana wrote:

Ulysses is great, but locks you into its
proprietary database. While it's perfectly possible to export
Ulysses content (as e.g. markup files), it's not possible to use
Ulysses files with anything other than Ulysses.

Actually you can use Ulysses with "external folders" of markdown files. I always used it this way when I had a working Mac, for the sake of interoperability. See here:

https://ulysses.app/kb/external-folders

Simon wrote:

I'm currently using bear, drafts, Standard Notes and Omnioutliner. Could
either Roam or Obsidian replace these? My use case is teaching and
sermon prep, plus running a church/charity.

Not to wishing to add more for you to consider, but IMHO, while Roam and Obsidian are probably The Big Two at the moment, Logseq is also worthy of consideration (https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/9422/0/logseq--like-roam-but-based-on-markdown-files--making-major-strides and Foam's not far behind, if you're desktop based and happy to work with VS Code as a base (https://foambubble.github.io/foam/

Personally, my stack is based largely around Drafts (notes), iThoughts (maps and outlines) and Raindrop (web-based references). I've tried all of the PKM apps listed above (and a fair few others), but nothing has been so revolutionary that it's made me consider shifting from Drafts. I sometimes think about running a system alongside Drafts ("syncing" a subset of notes between Drafts and Obsidian/Logseq for specific projects that might benefit from the features they provide, but that seems like more hassle than it's worth. Instead, I've been doubling down on Drafts workflows, and experimenting with some alternative visualisations of relationships between notes. Nothing fancy, but enough for me to derive some further value...

Ha, interesting. It must be said, I use the desktop app as my primary version; I hadn’t considered the limitations of the iOS app.

Fascinating how many developers underestimate the importance of the search function. In any kind of notetaking app it should, surely, be considered fundamental.

satis wrote:

@MadAboutDana this is what I was referring to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bearapp/comments/mhyu0z/is_there_a_way_to_search_on_page_in_bear/

"he search function will take me to a page but after opening the page I
have to read through it to find the item I’m searching, a big
inconvenience on long notes. I cannot find a way to search for it on the
page itself."

to which the dev replied:

"In regards to in-note searching for iOS specifically, this is something
we'd love to improve upon. This is becoming a popular request, and is
something we're definitely looking into."

*Becoming* a popular request... four years after the app was introduced.
ߧ

True, but as the article you quote points out, there are certain limitations.

But you make a fair point ;-)

Lucas wrote:

MadaboutDana wrote:
> Ulysses is great, but locks you into its
>proprietary database. While it's perfectly possible to export
>Ulysses content (as e.g. markup files), it's not possible to use
>Ulysses files with anything other than Ulysses.
>

Actually you can use Ulysses with "external folders" of markdown files.
I always used it this way when I had a working Mac, for the sake of
interoperability. See here:

https://ulysses.app/kb/external-folders

Roam local uses the browser cache - it's not a full, file system-based implementation. So you can't, for example, select a local location for your database and then access it from other apps.

Data is in a proprietary format, can be exported as Markdown or JSON, but has its own peculiarities so can't be guaranteed t work as expected in other apps. And, as I noted above, you can't access it directly - has to be exported first.

Roam has many attractive attribute, but there's no doubt in my mind that some of its core implementations are half-baked, local being one. It's very much work in progress, not yet a fully formed service. They charge a premium price for the service, but don't yet provided a premium service.

Christoph wrote:

Luhmann wrote:
>Note: originally Roam made storing your files offline a premium
feature,
>but they lately lifted all restrictions so anyone can have as many
>offline databases as they like.

Sounds interesting. Are offline databases in Roam as functional as those
in the cloud? Are they in a proprietary format or can they be easily
processed by tools other than Roam? (Obsidian uses only Markdown files
which can be easily processed and used outside of Obsidian.) Removing
the ability to have local notebooks was the final straw that made me
move from Evernote to Obsidian.

I can't argue with that. I signed up early on and they allow early adopters to use their existing databases for free, although I can't create new databases. I'm not sure I would be using it if I had to pay. Still, it is important to mark the difference which is that Roam is a database, with each "block" (paragraph) having its own unique identifier. That means it can do some things that a plain text system cannot (although Obsidian has been impressive in mimicking many of those features).

NickG wrote:

Roam local uses the browser cache - it's not a full, file system-based
implementation. So you can't, for example, select a local location for
your database and then access it from other apps.

Data is in a proprietary format, can be exported as Markdown or JSON,
but has its own peculiarities so can't be guaranteed t work as expected
in other apps. And, as I noted above, you can't access it directly - has
to be exported first.

Roam has many attractive attribute, but there's no doubt in my mind that
some of its core implementations are half-baked, local being one. It's
very much work in progress, not yet a fully formed service. They charge
a premium price for the service, but don't yet provided a premium
service.

Christoph wrote:
Luhmann wrote:
>>Note: originally Roam made storing your files offline a premium
>feature,
>>but they lately lifted all restrictions so anyone can have as many
>>offline databases as they like.
>
>Sounds interesting. Are offline databases in Roam as functional as
those
>in the cloud? Are they in a proprietary format or can they be easily
>processed by tools other than Roam? (Obsidian uses only Markdown files
>which can be easily processed and used outside of Obsidian.) Removing
>the ability to have local notebooks was the final straw that made me
>move from Evernote to Obsidian.

Luhmann wrote:

Still, it is important to mark the difference which is that Roam is a
database, with each "block" (paragraph) having its own unique
identifier. That means it can do some things that a plain text system
cannot (although Obsidian has been impressive in mimicking many of those
features).

True. Although it seems to be that the goal should be to have the best of both worlds: plaintext/markdown plus some kind of database overlay. I would say that, if anything, Logseq goes even further than Obsidian in implementing such an approach, giving every block a unique identifier, etc.

The article seems to be updated very recently. It includes now also Logseq, besides the other two applications mentioned in the title.
Good comparison on the different areas, with a "winner" for each of them.
Reading the article one gets a rather comprehensive idea of what they do and what they don't.
There is a test (12 questions) to help finding the right tool according to your needs and preferences. It asks an Email at the end, but the result of your answers is in the same following page.

Thanks for the update, @Anthony – it's prompted me to read the article and take a good look at LogSeq (although their little questionnaire-thingy decided to assign me to the Obsidian group and they then sent me lots of info on their courses for Obsidian...). I'm actually rather impressed by LogSeq.

Cheers,
Bill

Anthony wrote:

The article seems to be updated very recently. It includes now also
Logseq, besides the other two applications mentioned in the title.
Good comparison on the different areas, with a "winner" for each of
them.
Reading the article one gets a rather comprehensive idea of what they do
and what they don't.
There is a test (12 questions) to help finding the right tool according
to your needs and preferences. It asks an Email at the end, but the
result of your answers is in the same following page.

I found it very interesting to read the areas in which Logseq was considered better than Roam. I've been using the Logseq mobile app for the past six weeks, just making some daily notes, and it's already quite good despite being in beta. Worth a look if you like the outline/bullets style of notetaking.

That dev keeps pressing the Self Destruct Button of Roam spaceship.

To be fair, Roam just announced a public beta of their native iOS app yesterday. I'm a Logseq user myself, but Roam seems to be holding their own. Last month they had a major update which supposedly made the whole app much faster and more responsive.

Problem is the dev, give him time, he'll press the button again.

I really love the Obsidian developers, so much so that I feel bad the app doesn't meet my needs. The logseq developers and community are great too.