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Zavala - An open source outliner for Macs, iPads, and iPhones
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Posted by MadaboutDana
Nov 17, 2021 at 05:08 PM
As a Zavala user, I think this is an interesting idea.
I like the focus option too, mind you, simply because it often serves to focus the mind – you don’t necessarily want to change the structure of your overall outline, you just want to zero in on a specific item/subitems.
You can see where this is going… A + B = hurrah!
;-)
Maurice Parker wrote:
On a different topic…
>
>I’ve been thinking about the Focus command that lots of outliners seem
>to have. I’m hesitant to implement it in Zavala because I haven’t had
>anyone ask why I haven’t yet. Besides, my outline editor context menu is
>almost too long as it is, which is where the Focus command would
>logically go. I can see that you might find part of your outline
>something that you want to focus on, but just zooming in on that row the
>best solution these days?
>
>As an alternative, I am thinking about making an Extract command. If you
>“Extracted” a row, it would create a new outline with the row as the
>title of the new outline and any decedent rows as rows in the new
>outline. In its place would be a row with the title of the new outline
>linked to the new outline.
>
>I think this has more utility than the Focus command and would be useful
>for creating knowledge graphs instead of just large outlines. It would
>add to the editor context menu, but I think it might be worth adding
>another item if it packs enough punch.
>
>If I implemented the Extract command, does anyone think I would still
>need the Focus command?
Posted by Maurice Parker
Nov 18, 2021 at 05:42 PM
MadaboutDana wrote:
>You can see where this is going… A + B = hurrah!
I deserved that. :-) I should have framed the question as an either/or thing.
I’ve really run out of space on the Editor row context menu. In fact, I’m stripping out Indent/Outdent from that menu in Version 2. (We’ve got plenty of other ways to Indent/Outdent and don’t need another). If I add both Focus and Extract functions, I would have to add 2 more things to that menu. If software design wasn’t a system of trade-offs, I would just implement both and stop wasting so much mental effort on it.
I had something of an epiphany today while reading up on Dave Winer’s Drummer. He uses really large outlines with lots of different things in them. For example, one OPML file equals one blog with multiple days of entries in it. What is more common these days is to build your outlines into a knowledge graph, (Roam, Logseq, etc…) where each day of the blog would be a separate outline.
I think it boils down to the difference between a library type application (Zavala, Roam, Logseq, etc…) that manages the outline storage for you vs. a file based approach where it is easier to put as much as you can in each OPML file. You can expect smaller, interlinked outlines in a library application than you can in a file based one.
That leads me to believe that Extract is a better fit for Zavala than Focus. It encourages smaller, interconnected outlines that work well in a library type application. I’m not saying that Focus isn’t still valuable. I just believe that it is less valuable when you aren’t feeling like you have to stuff as much as you can into each OPML file.
Posted by MadaboutDana
Nov 19, 2021 at 05:13 PM
Heh, sorry! But yes, it does boil down to a philosophical issue, perhaps, and Zavala is similar to Outlinely, in that it positively encourages one to create lots of outlines sitting together in one big outline (the navigation bar). In that sense, maybe extraction is better than focusing. On the other hand, maybe you’re making it too complicated and you ought to use a Workflowy-like approach based on an extended left-hand touchplate – click the arrow and the outline folds/unfolds; click the area to the left (in European languages) of the arrow and you “focus” on that particular item (i.e. raise/lift it to a “virtual” top level).
Having just opened up Zavala and played with it alongside DynaList/Workflowy, however, I tend to agree that you could make your special thing extraction rather than focusing. Focusing can also, just occasionally, be really, really annoying! ;-)
However, if you’re going to do that, I strongly suggest that you also introduce support for nested tags, so you can create a folding outline in the navigation bar as well. That would turn Zavala into a very powerful tool.
Cheers,
Bill
Maurice Parker wrote:
>
>MadaboutDana wrote:
>
>>You can see where this is going… A + B = hurrah!
>
>I deserved that. :-) I should have framed the question as an either/or
>thing.
>
>I’ve really run out of space on the Editor row context menu. In fact,
>I’m stripping out Indent/Outdent from that menu in Version 2. (We’ve got
>plenty of other ways to Indent/Outdent and don’t need another). If I add
>both Focus and Extract functions, I would have to add 2 more things to
>that menu. If software design wasn’t a system of trade-offs, I would
>just implement both and stop wasting so much mental effort on it.
>
>I had something of an epiphany today while reading up on Dave Winer’s
>Drummer. He uses really large outlines with lots of different things in
>them. For example, one OPML file equals one blog with multiple days of
>entries in it. What is more common these days is to build your outlines
>into a knowledge graph, (Roam, Logseq, etc…) where each day of the
>blog would be a separate outline.
>
>I think it boils down to the difference between a library type
>application (Zavala, Roam, Logseq, etc…) that manages the outline
>storage for you vs. a file based approach where it is easier to put as
>much as you can in each OPML file. You can expect smaller, interlinked
>outlines in a library application than you can in a file based one.
>
>That leads me to believe that Extract is a better fit for Zavala than
>Focus. It encourages smaller, interconnected outlines that work well in
>a library type application. I’m not saying that Focus isn’t still
>valuable. I just believe that it is less valuable when you aren’t
>feeling like you have to stuff as much as you can into each OPML file.
>
Posted by satis
Dec 4, 2021 at 12:31 AM
Just noticed that Zavala got noticed by ThriftMac, a site which highlights Mac freeware.
https://www.thriftmac.com/organizers/zavala
Posted by Maurice Parker
Dec 9, 2021 at 07:25 PM
Zavala 2.0 Beta 1 is now in TestFlight and can be tested on iOS and macOS. Testflight on macOS is still a little confusing. You have to be running macOS 12 Monterey and already have TestFlight installed from the Mac App Store. If you click the TestFlight link on macOS and don’t have TestFlight installed, it will prompt you to install the iOS version. Not very helpful.
https://testflight.apple.com/join/iFbND23m
Some things we’ve discussed in this thread aren’t in v2 and are slated to be built in v3. Those are Row Attributes (formerly Row Metadata) and the Extract command. Although, the Extract command might show up in a v2.1 or something.
The tentpole feature in v2 is Shortcuts support. I did my best to make sure every aspect of an outline was able to be manipulated. I didn’t want to go all out like some apps (i.e. OmniiOutliner) and allow the UI to be extensible. There are a couple Shortcut Actions that fall into that category, but for the most part it is just directly working with outlines themselves. It isn’t that I don’t find an extensible UI to be useful. I’m just not convinced that I want to the added complexity just yet (if ever).
Here are some examples of things you can do with Shortcuts and Zavala 2.0.
https://zavala.vincode.io/help/Shortcut_Examples.md/
Another new feature that I added is the ability to go back and forward while working with outlines like you can in a web browser. This is very useful if you are interlinking outlines or are working with multiple ones at the same time. I think this really makes Zavala more friendly for folks using it as a PKB.
There is a lot more. If you want a full changelog and more details, here is a blog post about it.
https://zavala.vincode.io/2021/12/09/2.0_Beta_1.html
I’d love to get some feedback on the changes in 2.0. There are some UI changes in there that I think might be controversial and am curious as to if I am going to get pushback on them. I’m of the opinion that they are improvements, but you just don’t know until other people have a chance to use them.