The Benefit of Nested Tags
Started by Simon
on 12/17/2020
Simon
12/17/2020 11:32 am
I recently watched a YouTube video extolling the virtues of Obsidian/Roam/Notion. The video (and it's not alone) highlighted the amazing benefits of links and the graphics browser. I've had a play around with Obisdian and can't see what all the fuss is about. What was interesting in the video was the cursory glance at Bear and it's dismissal in favour of these new apps--the next generation of note taking is now here!
I wanted to highlight a great feature in Bear that these apps do not seem to have, and that is nested tags. I've come to rely heavily on Bear using nested tags and they solve the problem of a graphical map and reduce the amount of linking needed, plus allowing the same document to be in more than one place at once. I can have a general tag #productivity and then nest under that #productivity/time/templates/pdf and so on. The beauty of this is that clicking on the first tag shows me everything and I can then narrow down the list to more specific tags. The other great benefit is that a document can appear in more than one place. I can tag:
#productivity/time/templates/pdf
#pdf/templates/productivity
in the same document and it will appear in both places.
I find nested tags are not much spoken about, but find they are more useful than a graphical map. It also means entering new information is fast and easy and once your tags grow you naturally see clusters that can be put into a new main topic. Nested tags are allowing me to organically grow my notes and just about anything else I through at it.
Does anyone else find nested tags indispensable?
I wanted to highlight a great feature in Bear that these apps do not seem to have, and that is nested tags. I've come to rely heavily on Bear using nested tags and they solve the problem of a graphical map and reduce the amount of linking needed, plus allowing the same document to be in more than one place at once. I can have a general tag #productivity and then nest under that #productivity/time/templates/pdf and so on. The beauty of this is that clicking on the first tag shows me everything and I can then narrow down the list to more specific tags. The other great benefit is that a document can appear in more than one place. I can tag:
#productivity/time/templates/pdf
#pdf/templates/productivity
in the same document and it will appear in both places.
I find nested tags are not much spoken about, but find they are more useful than a graphical map. It also means entering new information is fast and easy and once your tags grow you naturally see clusters that can be put into a new main topic. Nested tags are allowing me to organically grow my notes and just about anything else I through at it.
Does anyone else find nested tags indispensable?
Christoph
12/17/2020 2:30 pm
Why do the tags need to be nested? For me it suffices if I can combine tags in a search.
E.g. in Obsidian, you can search for "tag:productivity tag:#pdf" to find all notes tagged with both tags, or you can search for "tag:productivity OR tag:#pdf" to find all notes with one of these tags.You can also search for "tag:#productivity -tag:#pdf" to find all notes about productivity not tagges with "pdf". Of course you can also add or exclude plaintext to the same search expression.
E.g. in Obsidian, you can search for "tag:productivity tag:#pdf" to find all notes tagged with both tags, or you can search for "tag:productivity OR tag:#pdf" to find all notes with one of these tags.You can also search for "tag:#productivity -tag:#pdf" to find all notes about productivity not tagges with "pdf". Of course you can also add or exclude plaintext to the same search expression.
Pierre Paul Landry
12/17/2020 5:18 pm
Simon wrote:
Hi Simon and Christoph,
Hierarchical Tags are extremely useful, when inheritance is properly implemented.
And this is why it was added it to InfoQube in what I believe is the most powerful implementation of all information management apps currently available (with search operators, multiple inheritance paths, auto-tagging, bulk tag operations, shown throughout the various UIs, etc.)
Details here:
https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/?q=node/4328
(available to both regular IQ and the free *simplified* IQ Outliner)
Pierre Paul Landry
IQ Designer
(...) >Does anyone else find nested tags indispensable?Christoph wrote:
Why do the tags need to be nested? For me it suffices if I can combine tags in a search.
Hi Simon and Christoph,
Hierarchical Tags are extremely useful, when inheritance is properly implemented.
And this is why it was added it to InfoQube in what I believe is the most powerful implementation of all information management apps currently available (with search operators, multiple inheritance paths, auto-tagging, bulk tag operations, shown throughout the various UIs, etc.)
Details here:
https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/?q=node/4328
(available to both regular IQ and the free *simplified* IQ Outliner)
Pierre Paul Landry
IQ Designer
Lb
12/17/2020 5:45 pm
It seems Nested Tags and Hierarchical Tags are the same to some of us but not sure if that's definite. Maybe depends on the program or code being used?
Here's some discussion on it if that's the case.
https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/4281/
Here's some discussion on it if that's the case.
https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/4281/
Pierre Paul Landry
12/17/2020 6:02 pm
LB wrote:
Indeed, the two can be used interchangeably.
My previous post sounded more "sales-pitch" than I originally intended. Sorry. The point I wanted to get through is that not all tagging systems are equal, and in particular, nested tag ones.
If users see the usefulness of the IQ's tagging system and perhaps want something similar implemented in other apps, I can share the details.
Pierre
It seems Nested Tags and Hierarchical Tags are the same to some of us
Indeed, the two can be used interchangeably.
My previous post sounded more "sales-pitch" than I originally intended. Sorry. The point I wanted to get through is that not all tagging systems are equal, and in particular, nested tag ones.
If users see the usefulness of the IQ's tagging system and perhaps want something similar implemented in other apps, I can share the details.
Pierre
Amontillado
12/17/2020 7:05 pm
I use tag hierarchies all the time in Devonthink, but I discover I have a question.
If I use the same tag name in two different parent tags, how does DT choose which one to use?
The answer isn't jumping out of the documentation. It appears to use the most recently created instance of a tag.
For instance, consider two tags called "x" and "y". Make a tag "a" under each. When you add a tag "a" to a document by typing the tag name in the tag bar at the bottom of the document, which "a" gets added?
Inquiring minds want to know. I think I'll post on the DT forum.
If I use the same tag name in two different parent tags, how does DT choose which one to use?
The answer isn't jumping out of the documentation. It appears to use the most recently created instance of a tag.
For instance, consider two tags called "x" and "y". Make a tag "a" under each. When you add a tag "a" to a document by typing the tag name in the tag bar at the bottom of the document, which "a" gets added?
Inquiring minds want to know. I think I'll post on the DT forum.
Amontillado
12/17/2020 7:34 pm
Ok, answered my own question.
My guess was correct. The DT manual says that adding a tag goes to the most recently defined instance of that tag name, if the name appears more than once in the tag inventory.
DT kind of mildly suggests tags should be uniquely named, but for any who like to use the same tag name in multiple hierarchies and you want to use an older version of the tag, drag the file from the list to the tag you want in the sidebar.
That way I can have tags Opus 1, Opus 2, etc., each with subtags Chapter 1, Chapter 2, etc.
I like that. Notes can appear in whatever Opus/Chapter tags that make sense.
Then, when I come to my senses and realize I'm presenting things in the wrong order, I can just make an Opus 3 tag and re-arrange without throwing away what I came up with for Opus 1 or 2.
Works great, but DT still has a point about avoiding duplicate names.
A document might have tags "Opus 1 Opus 2 Chapter 1 Chapter 1". If you want to remove the document from Opus 2's Chapter 1, you need to go into the tag for Chapter 1 inside of Opus 2.
Delete the document there - deleting in a tag just removes the tag, it doesn't delete the file.
You might think deleting the parent Opus 2 tag would do the trick, but if you delete a parent tag while leaving a child tag in place, the parent will reappear. I assume that's from the way parents are automatically added when a child tag is applied.
In my use of tagging to create alternate grouping, I have been using descriptive tag names. I think if I start using generic names like Chapter 1, I'll make the tag name 1-Chapter 1, for Opus 1, Chapter 1.
Or something like that.
I would apologize for obsessing over nittery, but it's what I do. Seems perfectly natural to me.
Amontillado wrote:
My guess was correct. The DT manual says that adding a tag goes to the most recently defined instance of that tag name, if the name appears more than once in the tag inventory.
DT kind of mildly suggests tags should be uniquely named, but for any who like to use the same tag name in multiple hierarchies and you want to use an older version of the tag, drag the file from the list to the tag you want in the sidebar.
That way I can have tags Opus 1, Opus 2, etc., each with subtags Chapter 1, Chapter 2, etc.
I like that. Notes can appear in whatever Opus/Chapter tags that make sense.
Then, when I come to my senses and realize I'm presenting things in the wrong order, I can just make an Opus 3 tag and re-arrange without throwing away what I came up with for Opus 1 or 2.
Works great, but DT still has a point about avoiding duplicate names.
A document might have tags "Opus 1 Opus 2 Chapter 1 Chapter 1". If you want to remove the document from Opus 2's Chapter 1, you need to go into the tag for Chapter 1 inside of Opus 2.
Delete the document there - deleting in a tag just removes the tag, it doesn't delete the file.
You might think deleting the parent Opus 2 tag would do the trick, but if you delete a parent tag while leaving a child tag in place, the parent will reappear. I assume that's from the way parents are automatically added when a child tag is applied.
In my use of tagging to create alternate grouping, I have been using descriptive tag names. I think if I start using generic names like Chapter 1, I'll make the tag name 1-Chapter 1, for Opus 1, Chapter 1.
Or something like that.
I would apologize for obsessing over nittery, but it's what I do. Seems perfectly natural to me.
Amontillado wrote:
The answer isn't jumping out of the documentation. It appears to use the
most recently created instance of a tag.
For instance, consider two tags called "x" and "y". Make a tag "a" under
each. When you add a tag "a" to a document by typing the tag name in the
tag bar at the bottom of the document, which "a" gets added?
Inquiring minds want to know. I think I'll post on the DT forum.
Lb
12/18/2020 2:26 am
Pierre Paul Landry wrote:
Not sales-pitchy at all. In fact I'm a big fan of InfoQube and out of all the IM programs I use it's the main one and probably only one I think that does Tags right along with most everything else.
In my thinking, Nested Tags and Hierarchical Tags are the same. I wasn't sure if that was correct on my part though since a search for "Nested Tags" has a lot of results for HTML code, which I'm not sure is the same.
LB wrote:
> It seems Nested Tags and Hierarchical Tags are the same to some of us
Indeed, the two can be used interchangeably.
My previous post sounded more "sales-pitch" than I originally intended.
Sorry. The point I wanted to get through is that not all tagging systems
are equal, and in particular, nested tag ones.
Pierre
Not sales-pitchy at all. In fact I'm a big fan of InfoQube and out of all the IM programs I use it's the main one and probably only one I think that does Tags right along with most everything else.
In my thinking, Nested Tags and Hierarchical Tags are the same. I wasn't sure if that was correct on my part though since a search for "Nested Tags" has a lot of results for HTML code, which I'm not sure is the same.
mkasu
12/18/2020 4:40 am
I've played around with Obsidian quite a bit, but ultimately ended up switching away because all this loose structure did not work for me and I started to lose files in the graphs because I forget links or tags.
I since started to use Bear and nested tags quite a bit.
For the hierarchy, I mainly enjoy that I can fall back to parent tags. I am academically supervising students, so I might have a note tagged with "#people/students/John". I can easily filter for "John" to get his specific notes, but also for "students" to get all student notes, or for "people" to include notes related to coworkers or professors. I have the same for #projects/ProjectA and various other things.
I also give each notes multiple such tags, so a folder structure in Obsidian wouldn't work (It gets ambiguous; would I put a note on John's ProjectA in the project folder or the students' folder? What if one student has multiple projects, what if one project is done by multiple students...)
I suppose, I could use multiple normal tags and filter for combinations like "#students AND "#john" or something, but without the hierarchy lots of structure would get lost very quickly. Also I might sometimes forget to tag one or the other. The hierarchy forces me to include parent tags automatically.
My main database for archival is DevonThink, though, so all my PDFs etc rest there and I use external links in Bear to link to them. I am currently trying to mitigate as many notes as possible from Bear to DevonThink in order to make use of all the new backlinking features, but I struggle to implement a tag workflow in DT comes close enough to the way I use Bear tagging.
I since started to use Bear and nested tags quite a bit.
For the hierarchy, I mainly enjoy that I can fall back to parent tags. I am academically supervising students, so I might have a note tagged with "#people/students/John". I can easily filter for "John" to get his specific notes, but also for "students" to get all student notes, or for "people" to include notes related to coworkers or professors. I have the same for #projects/ProjectA and various other things.
I also give each notes multiple such tags, so a folder structure in Obsidian wouldn't work (It gets ambiguous; would I put a note on John's ProjectA in the project folder or the students' folder? What if one student has multiple projects, what if one project is done by multiple students...)
I suppose, I could use multiple normal tags and filter for combinations like "#students AND "#john" or something, but without the hierarchy lots of structure would get lost very quickly. Also I might sometimes forget to tag one or the other. The hierarchy forces me to include parent tags automatically.
My main database for archival is DevonThink, though, so all my PDFs etc rest there and I use external links in Bear to link to them. I am currently trying to mitigate as many notes as possible from Bear to DevonThink in order to make use of all the new backlinking features, but I struggle to implement a tag workflow in DT comes close enough to the way I use Bear tagging.
Christoph
12/18/2020 10:08 am
For me, the less rigid structure is what makes Obsidian so attractive. It is not strictly neccessary that everything is connected via links and tags, you can find content easily even without that using normal text search and the "unlinked mentions" section. I also make use of nested folder to structure my Obsidian vault.
mkasu wrote:
mkasu wrote:
I've played around with Obsidian quite a bit, but ultimately ended up
switching away because all this loose structure did not work for me and
I started to lose files in the graphs because I forget links or tags.
MadaboutDana
12/18/2020 11:15 am
I like Obsidian very much, but I also like Bear (I can’t, alas, use InfoQube because it’s Windows-based, although I have downloaded a copy of the outliner to use in Parallels Desktop!).
But NotePlan 3 (macOS) has most of the advantages of Obsidian, Bear and other nested taggers.
NotePlan allows you to nest hashtags (#) and mentions (@), supports folders, and now offers backlinks (in iOS they’re still in beta, but they’re already very stable and I’m using the beta version without issues on my iPad and iPhone). And unlike e.g. Agenda, NotePlan allows you to open notes in multiple windows. The app also has a very good search function.
Users have expressed dismay at NotePlan’s fairly robust subscription pricing, but I can say from personal experience that the app replaces a whole bunch of information and task managers while being firmly based on simple Markdown.
A few additions are needed: more support for Markdown would be good (at the moment it only supports a fairly limited subset of formatting commands), and some widgets and services would be brilliant (NotePlan accepts file links and mail links – and turns them into tidy, referenced Markdown links – but it doesn’t have a service for automatically “sending” stuff to the app, although it does support drag and drop).
Project manager Didier Varlot has written a couple of interesting articles on how he uses NotePlan for project management (e.g. https://dvarlot.medium.com/how-i-manage-projects-with-noteplan-3-c7ff3a100d00
Eduard, the developer, is extremely responsive, and has a lengthy roadmap of features for future inclusion, including e.g. folding (aha! can’t wait!).
Cheers,
Bill
But NotePlan 3 (macOS) has most of the advantages of Obsidian, Bear and other nested taggers.
NotePlan allows you to nest hashtags (#) and mentions (@), supports folders, and now offers backlinks (in iOS they’re still in beta, but they’re already very stable and I’m using the beta version without issues on my iPad and iPhone). And unlike e.g. Agenda, NotePlan allows you to open notes in multiple windows. The app also has a very good search function.
Users have expressed dismay at NotePlan’s fairly robust subscription pricing, but I can say from personal experience that the app replaces a whole bunch of information and task managers while being firmly based on simple Markdown.
A few additions are needed: more support for Markdown would be good (at the moment it only supports a fairly limited subset of formatting commands), and some widgets and services would be brilliant (NotePlan accepts file links and mail links – and turns them into tidy, referenced Markdown links – but it doesn’t have a service for automatically “sending” stuff to the app, although it does support drag and drop).
Project manager Didier Varlot has written a couple of interesting articles on how he uses NotePlan for project management (e.g. https://dvarlot.medium.com/how-i-manage-projects-with-noteplan-3-c7ff3a100d00
Eduard, the developer, is extremely responsive, and has a lengthy roadmap of features for future inclusion, including e.g. folding (aha! can’t wait!).
Cheers,
Bill
eurobubba
12/18/2020 3:15 pm
Regarding NotePlan's price, it's worth noting that it's available on SetApp, although it can be slow to update. (The recent update to version 3 is not there yet.)
MadaboutDana wrote:
MadaboutDana wrote:
Users have expressed dismay at NotePlan’s fairly robust
subscription pricing, but I can say from personal experience that the
app replaces a whole bunch of information and task managers while being
firmly based on simple Markdown.
Stephen Zeoli
12/18/2020 4:23 pm
Also regarding NotePlan, Eduard has asserted that he is working on providing a browser version, which would be great for me, since I spend my work days in Windows.
The subscription is a little steep, but to me NotePlan is an excellent app and only promises to get better. I am happy to support that work.
Steve Z.
The subscription is a little steep, but to me NotePlan is an excellent app and only promises to get better. I am happy to support that work.
Steve Z.
Simon
12/18/2020 6:43 pm
I used Noteplan 2, but v3 is now out of my price range---and a subscription at that, not something I'll return to. It also won't be in Setapp anytime soon as the developer wants to gain traction with his subscription model.
The thing I like about nested tags is that they create a pseudo folder structure in Bear. They are part of your note's structure. They are also extremely quick to rearrange and move things about or have them in more than one place. Until Bear, I never really saw the benefit of tags apart from search, but if I use them individually I may as well search for the word as it will appear in the text. Creating nested tags and being able to see all the items associated with the nested tags and being able to drill down further has really helped me. I find it's ruined folders for me because they are just too rigid.
The thing I like about nested tags is that they create a pseudo folder structure in Bear. They are part of your note's structure. They are also extremely quick to rearrange and move things about or have them in more than one place. Until Bear, I never really saw the benefit of tags apart from search, but if I use them individually I may as well search for the word as it will appear in the text. Creating nested tags and being able to see all the items associated with the nested tags and being able to drill down further has really helped me. I find it's ruined folders for me because they are just too rigid.
Stephen Zeoli
12/23/2020 6:22 pm
Just FYI for those who want a note manager that has BOTH nested folders and nested tags, take a look at Notejoy.
https://notejoy.com
Like Bear, it provides instant rendering of markdown. It now works offline. Even though it is built for team collaboration, there is a solo plan.
I've been pleased with Notejoy as a replacement for Evernote.
Steve
https://notejoy.com
Like Bear, it provides instant rendering of markdown. It now works offline. Even though it is built for team collaboration, there is a solo plan.
I've been pleased with Notejoy as a replacement for Evernote.
Steve
satis
12/23/2020 8:47 pm
I got a Notejoy account two years ago, although I do not use the app. It's quite attractive though, and I suppose I should revisit it. Today I received an email from them linking to their Year 3 overview post:
https://notejoy.com/resources/a-look-back-at-notejoy-third-year
https://notejoy.com/resources/a-look-back-at-notejoy-third-year