First, clarifications:

Obviously includes Calc by LibreOffice/OpenOffice or similar, though Excel has more related third party potential (see below)

By Best I mean:
Fast
Easy
Near Infinite
More customizable, coding, macro, plugging in, etc potential than any
Numerous templates, codes, etc
Can teach anyone to move a cell in under a minute
Can have near infinite complexity too, as needed
etc etc

By Free-Form I mean:
You can cut a cell and move (or copy) it to another cell in a moment
Some apps are not Free-Form like that, follow rules etc

By Cell-Based I mean:
A grid of cells, rows and columns
Where the cell holds text, like a Post-It note
It's not continuous as in a mindmap or visual board where can position elements pixel by pixel
It's discrete as in a grid

Now don't get me wrong, I love treesheets as stated before. And use it with templates I made for various tasks.

I like mindmaps too, specially for brainstorming, presentation etc. Same with post-it like boards as in scrivener or Final Draft.


We have read various threads here on kanbans, visual boards, mindmaps, outliners with visual views etc. mentioning numerous apps.

Also task and schedule managers with visual views.

But for initial laying out of A LARGE amount of texts as the schematic diagram of a big project that needs to grow and change, I only see two alternatives:

1) A Robert Caro style big empty walls, preferably more than one, to stick numerous Post-It notes and blank printer papers on or even bigger paper. And not just a corkboard or white board, not big enough for big projects.

2) Or if digital, using: Excel
Preferably with a big monitor and/or multi monitors.

For this particular crucial type of laying out a big project from inception to many changes over time and growth to final status, I don't see any thing better.

I'm open to suggestions and have tested numerous apps and for this purpose it's a kind of simple instant clarity:

# Suddenly, Excel with infinite cells
# and (preferably)/or big empty walls

Again, this for laying out very big projects from initial inception and brain storming and data collection, to changes over a longish period to final versions. Not other tasks and projects or sub-stages and other tools needed within the above big project.

Other tools and apps, used too in their place.
But for overall on a big project, that's how I see it now.

Also for the last couple of weeks I've been collecting and adapting some tools or piece for Excel for such unusual purpose. It's a kind of innovative use but very eye-opening and huge potential as I see everyday with some new plugged-in addition or novel method etc for this purpose on Excel. The potentials are not limited in any way.

Spreadsheets are very flexible things. My oldest son got good recognition at work from Visual Basic macros he wrote for Excel.

If you're on a Mac you might find Apple Numbers could fit your use pretty well.

Tabs in Excel are near-infinite tables. The tabs in a Numbers file are canvases on which you can put text, tables, pictures, and probably other things. Numbers, in that regard, is like a fancied-up Scapple.

washere wrote:

Also for the last couple of weeks I've been collecting and adapting some
tools or piece for Excel for such unusual purpose. It's a kind of
innovative use but very eye-opening and huge potential as I see everyday
with some new plugged-in addition or novel method etc for this purpose
on Excel. The potentials are not limited in any way.

Amontillado wrote:

Spreadsheets are very flexible things. My oldest son got good
recognition at work from Visual Basic macros he wrote for Excel.

If you're on a Mac you might find Apple Numbers could fit your use
pretty well.

Tabs in Excel are near-infinite tables. The tabs in a Numbers file are
canvases on which you can put text, tables, pictures, and probably other
things. Numbers, in that regard, is like a fancied-up Scapple.

Macros are way and cool. Even more powerful the huge set of APIs, big VB industry wrt to MS Office modules. Years ago I coded into a project many API modules in Visual Basic to manipulate Excel and Access linked into a big database. It worked well. This is more interface oriented though, but the data linkage can be huge, and under the bonnet later as needed.

I'm using Mac less and less every year, mainly on Windows, Linux, Chromebook & Android these days. Will check if Numbers has anything extra that Excel & it's numerous third party add-ons don't offer. Thanks.

I was reluctant to post here. I thought it's unlikely anyone is using Excel in this unusual way. I think I was right. Everyday with new add-ons, methods, tweaking etc it's getting even more unusual, more weird and wonderful plus useful. It has certain challenges to overcome and many unique benefits.

Gboard swipe auto-error:

> Macros are way

Macros are easy

Probably not what you want (I admit to not fully understanding the request), but wonder if you've looked at airtable?

https://airtable.com/

Luhmann wrote:

Probably not what you want (I admit to not fully understanding the
request), but wonder if you've looked at airtable?

https://airtable.com/

Thanks for the suggestion, I'm not looking for any app. And Of course I've tried air airtable. Along with numerous similars, in fact I reckon I've tested well over a thousand wares over the last decade alone and probably over triple that over the decades.

There are many genres. Many types within genres too. Many apps within each type, some unique too.

As I said within stages other apps and tools and methods are used. For me, not airtable though.

It's better than some other which have jazzy interfaces, shiny objects. Airtable isn't that bad. Like a nice boat or e-corkboard. Curio is much better but still a nice boat. Less of task or schedule manager with critical path looks. Though I use a couple of those too.

I have a fave list of about fifty apps from the numerous I tested on various platforms. w/ Data imports/exports to all, written a manual of about 60 pages (I/o from/to any of those fifty apps), in some cases wrote scripts myself or multi app translators in between. About twenty of those apps are used very regularly. Airtable didn't make it to the twenty or even fifty.

With Excel unlimited rows and columns, simplicity to move text cells around, plugin thousands (yes thousands) of other things into, templates (each like a new software in itself too), coding (like making your own custom apps) or even simple macros as was suggested, design my own, etc.

Then I'm not looking at a nice little e-board but similar to 3 huge blank walls Caro used to start with.

This way it's not a nice little boat, it's a huge aircraft carrier, with a flotilla of ships to plugin on beck and call or even lots of other apps or nice little boats to play within each sub-stage, so each genre and tool in its place.

My answer to any little jazzy app (some of which I use myself as said) or even my serious outliners (diff category, more serious) being suggested as a replacement is this:

Imagine Caro was sitting next to his huge walls of notes and you go say what about replacing these walls with this snazzy little interface?

He probably wouldn't reply apart from a raised eyebrow but what you imagine he's thinking would be my response.

Same with Excel, apart from the ease of use and numerous text cells layout, the huge potential of making it into whatever I need using code, plugins, templates, scripts, tweaks etc and still being the best virtual wall for the foreseeable future means nothing comes close. Specially with multi monitors. I just received a touchscreen portable monitor yesterday too, slightly bigger than my laptop and Chromebook and crazy thin. So from a tiny bag emerges three big screens. And that's just one the go. Not Caro's big walls, but also have bigger non-portable monitors. Obviously for laying out big projects, as I said several times, not little jobs.

I repeat for the nth time though, I use multiple other apps, each in their place and sub-stage. I'd think few here have tested thousands of apps or have written a sixty page manual of how to I/o data between fifty of their fave apps. That wasn't the topic of this thread though: replacing or abandoning other tools or apps. Another clarification.

Takes some imagination though which is why I hesitated in posting, I wondered if anyone was using huge Excel sheets as virtual walls of text across multi monitors here which I doubted. Seems I was correct. So this topic here is basically closed for me now.

Gboard typo:

> And that’s just one the go

And that's just on the go

washere wrote:

Then I'm not looking at a nice little e-board but similar to 3 huge
blank walls Caro used to start with.

If you don't actually need calculations, https://www.plectica.com/ may also fit the bill.

It does operate on the basis of cards ('cells'), and it's infinite.

You can also have 'semantic zoom', which effectively simulates Caro walking back from his wall and only seeing the headings in larger font.

So you could open 3 different Plectica maps, or look at 3 different areas of the same map on 3 monitors.

Dr Andus wrote:

If you don't actually need calculations....

Thanks very much. That's correct, I actually don't need calculations. There are a few points I bear in mind with this new approach:

Wasted space: which I referred to in mindmaps vs. spreadsheets. Or as I said continuous vs discrete: pixel by pixel positioning vs grids of cells.

The benefit is not just reducing wasted (white background) space.

Also ease of use, you don't have to worry about accurate positioning & repositioning etc. Just drop text into the right cell. Which is what some graphics app like Photoshop illustrator etc have as snap to grid, as do some mindmaps. But nothing comes close to the ease of rows & columns in a spreadsheet.

Yet another, easy reordering of large groups by various selections.

Another, save time.

And more....

What resources, links codes plugins templates etc, I have been gathering over the last fortnight or so is already piling up. And they're are related to Excel. Because that's the elephant in the room. So I've discounted even Calc (LibreOffice/open office). As most of this industry based on Excel, works hundred percent with Excel. So just Excel related tools, design stuff, wares, tricks, etc.

Another aspect is that of course in this huge area, flotilla of Excel convoy ships I call them, link into other MS products like Access, Word, PP... And also MS Project, VB, .... And of course multi platform too with Macs and Chromebooks (Android).

These are strategic horizons that I can't ignore as I build. The resources links I've kept related to Excel already is over a hundred. Much more will be added. Then I'll sort them into genres: plugins, templates, codes, third party apps, ... Then whittle them down to a few best.

And keep an eye out for new Excel related "stuff". But basically I'm doing KISS (Keep it simple stupid), the main thing is Excel itself and the rest of the stuff are bonuses. I don't intend to waste much time on those unless looks useful vis-á-vis the walls of text purpose, ie: mainly visually text-wise or functionally useful eboard-wise. Well that's the plan for now, fingers crossed.

Thanks again.

>And they’re are related to Excel

And they’re all related to Excel

P.S. although numerical calculations won't be needed, in time textual calculations will be useful. For example having different level views of Categories' levels like outline-4D, plus other textual manipulations.

https://www.vertex42.com/blog/excel-formulas/text-formulas-in-excel.html

But that and similar text automations will be much later for me and not the main point. Also what most people don't realize except those rather familiar with Excel is that one can make a worksheet look "almost" like any productivity app layout, almost, and without any coding. It's not what comes to mind when an average person thinks of Excel at all. How it can look has infinite potential. How it behaves and automated textual tasks (calculations), that'll be a bonus if I get time for it.

Hm, nice idea, I must say.

The two macOS apps that would fit the bill most nearly are Curio (alas, macOS only) and Numbers (also available as an online app).

Curio is rapidly evolving into something very similar to what you’re describing.

I guess OneNote matches part of your brief, but I don’t think it’s comprehensive enough – and it tends to run slowly as files grow bigger.

MadaboutDana wrote:

Hm, nice idea, I must say.

The two macOS apps that would fit the bill most nearly are Curio (alas,
macOS only) and Numbers (also available as an online app).

Curio is rapidly evolving into something very similar to what
you’re describing.

I guess OneNote matches part of your brief, but I don’t think
it’s comprehensive enough – and it tends to run slowly
as files grow bigger.

Yes, the ways cells, rows, columns, subgrids etc can be made to look in Excel, or browsed etc is nearly infinite. From advanced use of menu commands to much more. Not to mention plugging in charts, etc.

And of course not forgetting the best Excel lookalike for Mac users is..... Excel on Mac.

As crazy as it sounds, I'm inclined to agree...CURRENTLY, there is nothing that really binds cell-based layouts & grids into something useful in this space. To even get a grid in something like say, SalesForce, I have to buy a special plugin.

I did some work for DoD at one point, and converted a huge pile of interrelated spreadsheets into a graph visualization for some stuff. Then I wrote a tool to do that for me, that let me sync my grid with the visualization in interesting ways. Then I built a bigger product off of that. Trouble is, it was all in Adobe Flash.

So, I'm working on a weird, also-comes-at-the-problem-from-an-angle sorta 3D solution.

washere wrote:

1) A Robert Caro style big empty walls, preferably more than one, to
stick numerous Post-It notes and blank printer papers on or even bigger
paper. And not just a corkboard or white board, not big enough for big
projects.

HyperPlan, whose developer has on occasion been known to frequent this forum, was designed to do just that. Given the long list of desirable features listed in the original, post, it might not provide everything you want, but then again, maybe it would provide just what you need (Cue the Rolling Stones).

https://www.hyperplan.com

washere wrote:

But for initial laying out of A LARGE amount of texts as the schematic diagram of a big project that needs to grow and change, I only see two alternatives:
1) A Robert Caro style big empty walls, preferably more than one, to stick numerous Post-It notes and blank printer papers on or even bigger paper. And not just a corkboard or white board, not big enough for big projects.

InfoQube has a new view which seems a perfect fit for what you describe, it's called Card View: Multiple, infinitely-sized walls (or desks), each divided into 4 quadrants where you can place cards. Each card can be plain text, rich text, PDFs or URLs. Commands to pile cards and spread cards in each quadrant.

Details here:
https://infoqubeim.com/drupal5/?q=node/4987

Pierre Paul Landry
IQ Designer
Download: http://www.infoqube.biz/download

Pierre Paul Landry wrote:

...

Thanks Pierre, I have a license for IQ and know it well.

Thanks.

xtabber wrote:

Thanks, as I said here often, I have many great templates made for hp and use them in their place, one of those many apps used in their place.

Also as Andy has said often, he's working on a free-form (free-layout) interface for a couple of years, to be released.

The whole point of this thread is that Free-Form grid.

Bobby Parker wrote:

As crazy as it sounds, I'm inclined to agree...CURRENTLY, there is
nothing that really binds cell-based layouts & grids into something
useful in this space. To even get a grid in something like say,
SalesForce, I have to buy a special plugin.

I did some work for DoD at one point, and converted a huge pile of
interrelated spreadsheets into a graph visualization for some stuff.
Then I wrote a tool to do that for me, that let me sync my grid with the
visualization in interesting ways. Then I built a bigger product off of
that. Trouble is, it was all in Adobe Flash.

So, I'm working on a weird, also-comes-at-the-problem-from-an-angle
sorta 3D solution.

That's what I thought initially. But apparently there are numerous people using Excel as a text based visual board grid. And it's not what springs to mind, typical image of spreadsheet. There are all sorts of things possible, making an Excel sheet look like, well, almost anything one wants it to look like.

Much of which can be done without any coding or even plugins. Just by some advanced use of Excel menus, options, etc. One doesn't have to learn all of the features. Just the ones wrt appearances, browsing sections, reports etc. Which is not that much actually. Not even advanced, basic to intermediary secretary level training stuff.

Of course there are numerous other plugins and features possible too. Or even basics like the cloud aspect or multi worksheets, linking to other MS & other Corps' wares. Goes on and one. Bountiful.

Much bang for bucks.

What do you think of using Excel as an outliner? One that can include big blocks of text.

Thanks, as I said here often, I have many great templates made for hp
and use them in their place, one of those many apps used in their place.

Also as Andy has said often, he's working on a free-form (free-layout)
interface for a couple of years, to be released.

The whole point of this thread is that Free-Form grid.

It is still the plan to release a Hyper Plan v3 with free layout. But, as always, it is taking longer than hoped to get around to it.

The problem with free form layout is that it doesn't scale very well for lots of cards. Too difficult to keep organized. Whereas the current Hyper Plan approach of automatically creating the grid based on the card properties easily scales to thousands of cards.

--
Andy Brice
http://www.hyperplan.com

Andy Brice wrote:

It is still the plan to release a Hyper Plan v3 with free layout. But,
as always, it is taking longer than hoped to get around to it.

The problem with free form layout is that it doesn't scale very well for
lots of cards. Too difficult to keep organized. Whereas the current
Hyper Plan approach of automatically creating the grid based on the card
properties easily scales to thousands of cards.

--
Andy Brice
http://www.hyperplan.com

Can do beta for more feedback for more cards.
+
Doesn't have to work w/ all cards.
Before buying, users can have trial version to see if it works with their spec.
+
Can also have two v3 releases:

Normal v3
v3+ (+ Free-Form feature)

I don't think I'm giving up Excel for this purpose though, it's just getting started and there's no end to what's possible.

Tom Maddox wrote:

What do you think of using Excel as an outliner? One that can include
big blocks of text.

It's possible. Have a look at DrAndus old reviews of "Outline 4D" if they're still on his blog. Outline 4D, long abandoned but still selling. I think that dev fried his brain, or some personal stuff, or upgrading his stuff with Qt or GTK+ is too much work for him.

Nothing that sophisticated possible though I'd imagine unless coding a good deal. But sure. It's possible, it's a matter of making rows expandable and Collapsible. For tree levels, just move the text one column forward.

Also in Excel one can make a cell of text any size, look in whatever design one wants, etc. Also browsing sub grids is possible, in many ways. All without coding. Funnily, making a visual board in whatever design is actually easier, without any coding.

Of course many other benefits after setting up an initial Visual-Board or Outliner: import export galore, cloud, develop looks with templates in infinite ways, ......

For outlining:

https://www.ablebits.com/office-addins-blog/2017/12/28/excel-group-rows/


https://www.google.com/search?&q=Excel+group+rows+collapsible+expandable

More Excel outlining:

https://www.contextures.com/excelpivottableexpandcollapse.html