I intended to buy DevonThink, Bookends and HoudahSpot from the current SummerFest 25% discount.

But with AppleSilicon coming i really hesitate. I still remember the fast G5->Intel transition and that Rosetta was kicked out very very fast. I've written emails to the support teams and asked for their upgrade policy but no reply so far.

Will you still buy macOS Intel only software now or wait until we get fat binaries?

First consideration is that Apple will not begin producing machines with the new processors until late this year, and then they will need to filter into the market past that time. Second, is that nothing about the processor change requires you to buy a new machine. Was Rosetta really "kicked out very very fast"? Even if so, what happened more than a decade ago is probably not an indicator of the current market.

Your choice, but personally if I had a reason to buy one or more of the products on your wish list, I wouldn't forego the purchase because something unknown might happen several years in the future.

I couldn't live without HoudahSpot. Reminds me of the old Zyindex days.

Lothar Scholz wrote:

I intended to buy DevonThink, Bookends and HoudahSpot from the current
SummerFest 25% discount.

But with AppleSilicon coming i really hesitate. I still remember the
fast G5->Intel transition and that Rosetta was kicked out very very
fast. I've written emails to the support teams and asked for their
upgrade policy but no reply so far.

Will you still buy macOS Intel only software now or wait until we get
fat binaries?

the processor change requires you to buy a new machine. Was Rosetta
really "kicked out very very fast"? Even if so, what happened more than

First Rosetta never worked with optimized G5 code (only G4).
And it was introduced with Tiger 10.4 and stopped after 10.6.
It was only acceptable translation because PPC was so bad compared to Intel.

There are a few reasons that I've chosen to use MacOS and a macbook, in addition to more powerful Windows machines: DevonThink, Scrivener (I've gave up hope that the 2.5-years-in-progress -- stable -- Windows Scrivener update will ever occur). Most of all, I bought a macbook because it had the ability to run Windows on macs.

It remains to be seen whether ARM DT or Scrivener will ever happen but that last? Windows on ARM macs? Not gonna happen, probably, at all and certainly not for the 32-bit Windows apps I use. That's a deal-breaker for me.

Personally, I said "bye Timmy" since the bozos gave their latest WWDC. MacWorld, by the way, agrees with you (though, of course, not me). Read their opinion, here.
https://www.macworld.com/article/3563738/you-shouldnt-buy-a-new-mac-right-now.html

Timmy, himself, refused to give a timeline for when x86 mac support would go away (along with 3rd-party sw updates) but DID note that it could be 2 - 200 years. That low-end estimate? That seems oddly near and is unsettling. He COULD'VE just said 5 - 500 years, were that 2 years thing not on the table. After all, he's heard the rumors about the PowerPC history -- and that 5 year timeline -- being applied to Intel Macs SO I'm considering that 2-year mention a strong tell.

Would Apple do that to their users? They sold them (and me) a defective keyboard for 5 years, knowing that it was defective all along. So, yeah, concern for users ain't high on Timmy Cook's list. You or I do that, we go to prison for fraud. Timmy just laughs on his way to the bank.

My experience of Apple, as a developer, is that they put very little effort into keeping 'old' apps running. So I don't expect a long transition period. For my part I will support Arm Macs as soon as I can and Intel Macs as long as I reasonably can. But I can only support the platforms that the third party framework I use (Qt) supports. Most apps are also dependent on one or more third party software libraries and frameworks.

A good overview of Rosetta 2 plans as we know them now:

https://www.theverge.com/21304182/apple-arm-mac-rosetta-2-emulation-app-converter-explainer

I bought a new MacBook just before WWDC. I bought it because of the existing software, not because of the hardware, which has become increasingly problematic in recent years.
Then came WWDC. Now, I won't buy any more software, nor will I upgrade my existing software. I will use the existing system as long as it works, and use the time to look for alternative systems and find other workflows for software for which there is no direct alternative.

My fear is that Apple will reduce the software/hardware lifetime a lot by using this specialized AI, security and whatever chip features they now want to add to the CPU. And i fear it will make software lose their lifetime too.

And this in our niche here where many are using it as long living database solution. So many macOS software fails on updates already for example the often mentioned "Curio" from 2 years ago doesn't work on Catalina.

By the way, at least Mark Bernstein answered my email about Tinderbox. Saying that he will get his development machine next week and start playing and porting with it. No answer from DevonThink so far.

I'm becoming increasingly disillusioned with Apple. Catalina has been a disaster for me, despite a clean install. Their 48% markup also doesn't sit well. I don't like that they now solder RAM into the machine and are introducing chips that monitor hardware that will shutdown your machine and stop it working if you swap out any hardware. Catalina introduced a split partition that only Apple have access to. It's feels like I'm slowly being sucked into using a machine that they control and I have no control over.

I've started migrating most of my data into crossplatform apps such as Evernote, Adobe and am now looking at Notion. I want to be able to switch if I need to. That sadly means that mac only apps now do not end up on my shortlist. I've come across so many people wondering if they'll buy a new machine when their old one expires, due to cost. For the first time I'm thinking of switching from iPhone to Android as the cost is getting ridiculous. I'm also looking at picking up a Linux machine and seeing how feasible it is as my main machine.

I love my iMac, but slowly it is becoming just as glitchy as Windows was when I last used it. iCloud is truly awful. I love macos simplicity, but not sure it is worth the price tag anymore.

Simon wrote:

I love macos simplicity, but
not sure it is worth the price tag anymore.

I also fear the price/performance ratio they come up with. There was some rumor that they want to enter the low cost market again as they did with some iPads. But knowing Apple i don't hold high expectations that this is more then a rumor. Their hardware offers in the last 5 years were all total laughable. I also hate iPad useability, i don't want to see it on my desktop machine. For me as an old computer nerd, this WWDC was a horror show.

NeXT could have been slightly interesting, even then Jobs wasted his potential on computing devices & business, though helped lots of people in the process. I guess he regretted what he spent his life on when on his deathbed, remembering his early seventies years, but couldn't help not do all he did anyway, was his nature ultimately. Since his parting, Tim is not only not moving it forward, but also systematically & step by step is deconstructing what's left of Steve's work. I guess he can't help it either and that's his nature.

Certain Mac apps are very addictive. Devonthink, Curio, Nisus Writer, and a few others see constant use here.

On the other hand, Linux is the only safe environment I see. It's tempting to move back, but I've got loads of data in Devonthink. Moving back to Linux would be non-trivial.

Yes, I find myself watching Apple developments with trepidation. On the one hand, I would never move back to Windows (Note to Self: hm, careful, Bill, it would amuse everybody if you found yourself working on Windows again in a couple of years’ time – but hey, a bit of a laugh never hurt anybody); on the other hand, Apple does make some seriously frustrating/enraging decisions. Mind you, so does Microsoft.

On the other hand, much as I’d love to work on Linux, I have tried (I run a couple of Linux machines – one hardware, one virtual), and there’s no way I could replace some of the software I currently use.

Ah well. I’ll just have to write another letter to Tim Cook. I know he’ll reply one of these days…

;-) Bill

I've been using Macs for long enough to remember the transition from PowerPC to Intel. That was truly an earthquake. And yet we survived :-) It was painful at times, Rosetta didn't work for some categories of software, but in the end the transition was for the better. And that was the first time Apple went this kind of massive change hardware-wise, while being a smaller company than they are today.

The general feeling i'm seeing around about this new transition is actually much more positive than it was about the previous one. ARM RISC architecture is really promising to be a powerful chip, solving many of the issues that Intel are stuck on like thermal issues. Fluid intercompatibility between iOS and MacOS apps is exciting. And Rosetta2 seems to be far more efficient and more compatible that its predecessor.

I was quite worried and anxious during the PowerPC->Intel . In perspective, going thru that makes more optimistic about this transition. I don't think it will be 100% fluid, there will be hiccups, but I think the experience they gathered thru the first one gives them now enough assurance to handle it even better.
I'm however not going to jump on a ARM machine when they come out. Not before at least 2 years until all potential issues are ironed out.

I don't think there should be any fear buying Mac software today. During the PowerPC /Intel transition, most developpers offered their dual PowerPC/Intel versions updates for free or for a very low fee so I expect something similar will happen.

Andy Brice wrote:

My experience of Apple, as a developer, is that they put very little
effort into keeping 'old' apps running. So I don't expect a long
transition period.

Andy, Rosetta existed in Mac OS X for *six years*.

Skywatcher wrote:

I've been using Macs for long enough to remember the transition from
PowerPC to Intel.

Heh, I remember the transition *to* PowerPC in 1993! This is the third time Apple's done this, and from what I've heard from devs the devkit looks pretty polished.

The vast majority of old apps will run in Rosetta_2 (but say goodbye to Bootcamp and Parallels/Windows, the latter thanks to Microsoft's official refusal to support Apple's ARM chips), and iPad apps will run *natively* on ARM silicon Macs.

Lothar Scholz wrote:

Rosetta ... was introduced with Tiger 10.4 and stopped after 10.6.

Some context: Rosetta was released in 2006 with 10.4 (and I believe was released to devs before that). Mac OSX 10.6 was released in 2009 and the last version of 10.6 came out summer 2011 with 10.6.8.

I know people who successfully continued to use 10.6.8 for years after that (I used it until 2012). But Rosetta was actively supported for five years and worked for the vast majority of PowerPC software.

satis wrote:

Andy, Rosetta existed in Mac OS X for *six years*.

Was it really 6 years?

On the other hand, I believe software I wrote 15 years ago still runs on the latest version of Windows.

--

Andy Brice
https://www.hyperplan.com

washere wrote:

NeXT could have been slightly interesting, even then Jobs wasted his
potential on computing devices & business, though helped lots of people
in the process. I guess he regretted what he spent his life on when on
his deathbed, remembering his early seventies years, but couldn't help
not do all he did anyway, was his nature ultimately. Since his parting,
Tim is not only not moving it forward, but also systematically & step by
step is deconstructing what's left of Steve's work. I guess he can't
help it either and that's his nature.

what ???