Thought I'd start a new thread since Obsidian is no longer brochureware but is available publicly.

macOS / Windows / Linux -- good to see developers supporting all nations from the get go.

Public beta available (no cost) at https://obsidian.md

Discourse forum at https://forum.obsidian.md

Discord server at https://obsidian.md/community (start here rather than starting at Discord)

I think it is important that people understand that even though it is in "public beta" and already has an impressive feature base, it is still very far from the finished product the developers have in mind. Probably the most noticeable change still to come is what they are calling the "WYSIWYG editor" - although in practice it is still unclear if it will look more like Typora (which hides all markdown code) or Bear (which displays some markdown code but gives it a pretty wrapping. Some features, like transcluding and displaying images currently only work in preview mode, but once the new editor is available they should hopefully work in the editor as well. There are other things that are still in the works as well, so that the final "1.0" release will be quite different from what is there now.

Personally, the current version (even with the daily journal plugin) cannot yet replace Roam for me, but I like the developers better than Roam's, and I like the openness of the system, so I am rooting for them. I donated to support development and I hope others will too. I really want them to succeed.

ugh

Luhmann wrote:

[…] I like the developers better than
Roam's, and I like the openness of the system, so I am rooting for them.

Any particular gripe or concern about the Roam devs? (And I ask because I think I'd agree with on that how you feel about the team is quite important.)

‑Alex

Just downloaded the app. It seems quite fast but also very clumsy to navigate. It took me almost five minutes to import a Markdown file into the app: it requires the files to be inside the pre-established Obsidian document folder and won't grab a file from anywhere else.

A lot of small additional complaints but I realize it's still an early beta. For what it is it looks pretty interesting though. They say they hope to offer a Typora-like WYSIWYG experience eventually, which is my favorite way to use and view Markdown.

Ordinarily I'd pay $25 for the app to help it along, but I don't know how much I'd use the app, especially now (or this year). And the yearly charges for e2ee and publishing (not yet available) seem a bit high, even if one does jump in on the early-bird pricing.

Between changes and coming or proposed changes to Obsidian, TiddlyWiki (with add-ons), Joplin, the org-roam project, and Trilium Notes it looks like Roam Reseach's main Good Idea is being coöpted pretty quickly. I see on Twitter that Roam's ceo is floating a potential 5-year discount price (still pricey at $500) to gauge interest.

Some of my preference comes from positive regarding how the Obsidian developers relate to users in online forums. They manage to be very responsive while still maintaining their own unique vision (i.e. not just adding things because users request it). This is a hard balance to achieve. In some cases I don't agree with their vision (for instance they are still very desktop centric in their approach), but they are very clear and open about their thinking process and remarkably consistent in their approach. They also work fast and continually update their products. Even as they develop Obsidian, Dyanlist is still getting important updates. For a team of just two, one wonders if they sleep. (I should also add that they even read posts in this forum, even if they don't always respond to them directly.)

The roam developer, on the other hand, comes across as rather arrogant and flippant online, constantly adds new features to the product that don't seem to have a clear connection to the core functionality, even when that core functionality still needs work. Also, Roam still lacks an official forum where users can discuss the product and give feedback. There is a slack, but because they haven't paid for it most of the messages disappear nearly as fast as they are written. (I suggest looking at the developer's twitter personal feed to get a sense of what I am talking about regarding his attitude.)

But like I said, I am still using Roam rather than Obsidian ... Even with all these problems there is still something about it which just makes it a pleasure to use. Obsidian isn't there yet, but I hope they will be soon.


Alessandro Vernet wrote:

Any particular gripe or concern about the Roam devs? (And I ask because
I think I'd agree with on that how you feel about the team is quite
important.)

‑Alex

I wish one could go back and edit things here... I hit "post" too soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFYaWC_86W0

The double-pane preview/output structure will fall away once they implement the Typora-style editor they're working on. But Erica's comments indicate that seems to be several months away.

Unfortunately, if you hide the output window the editor expands to fill the space, which makes each line of text much too wide for me when writing and reading.

I agree with the comments about Roam's immature management. I am not in such dire need to switch to a new system for editing, let alone a 'second brain' so I have no intention to migrate to Roam or any beta-release system at present. I figure that this time next year we'll see a lot of more mature companies with more mature products offering the most useful of the Roam/Obsidian features, like backlinks. Right now for example TiddlyWiki with the TiddlyBlink plugin (and possibly also TiddlyMap, which someone renamed TiddlyRoam https://joekroese.github.io/tiddlyroam/ ) offers a powerful and free Roam-like experience (admittedly with limitations related to mobile use and sync).

https://youtu.be/HfoGR4AYT5Y?t=1012

Having several notes open at the same time will not go away in Obsidian. It's a strategic cornerstone of their approach. In deed this feature and other features like a local version are strategies Roam have promised to ape because they were forced by Obsidian implementing them and being well received.

Otherwise he, Roam, would have preferred to only have people's data on his private server only not locally to milk subscriptions. And the fine print clauses says he (Roam) and also obsidian can snoop on people's data anytime.

And if some rich guy in Russia or Philippines or any territory with no proper legal recourse buys their companies later, they buy your data on their cloud too. Someone can make him an offer, fistful of dollars, he wouldn't refuse if the cheque had enough zeroes. And that guy will not put people's interests before his profit, as many others have shown before.

And it's not clear who has part ownership of your data, even in some Western Democratic legal territories, never mind questionable countries let alone if the paperwork is registered as shell companies on some tiny island. By whoever buys out Roam or Obsidian.

That's why the Obsidian local feature was resisted by Conor of Roam initially. Not just part owning their data on his cloud server and snooping whenever he felt like it, but he wanted to hook users on his product and then Jack up subscriptions as much as he could. Usual capitalist methods. Though a minority of businessmen are more ethical, though legally anyone can charge anything, supply and demand. Then he, Roam, had free market competition in the shape of Obsidian.

With Obsidian you can work only locally on your computer. Setup in a folder linked in to your private Dropbox or whatever other cloud, you can set to sync automatically with changes. Or even true privacy with your own private cloud like NextCloud, OwnCloud, WebDav server or whatever.

Obsidian already has live preview of Markdown next to editor Window as shown in the link I posted above. Multi notes windows are here to stay too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGLVu4ODs0w

We will get a proper open source replica of Obsidian/Roam on GitHub eventually by some team, not only will it be free and truly a local version but that way it will also be totally secure. It might take a year or two but probably not longer. Why? Because the features are not that difficult to code, just take time and as Obsidian shows rapidly almost weekly, each feature doesn't take that long to code, specially if it's a few good devs.

"the fine print clauses says he (Roam) and also obsidian can snoop on people’s data anytime."

While maybe true of Roam (as it is of Google, Evernote, and other online services), it is most certainly not true of Obsidian. Obsidian does not see your data, which is stored locally and not sent to their servers. They do plan to offer an optional web sync service later on, but the main advantage of using this over something like Dropbox will precisely be that it offers end-to-end encryption (as they state on their pricing page).

Luhmann wrote:

They do plan to offer an optional web sync service later on,

That's good to hear e2e encryption for their subs plans, not following their blurb that closely, which changes regularly.
As does Roam's regularly (dragging his feet) in reaction to Obsidian competition as i said.

but the main advantage of using this over something like Dropbox will precisely
be that it offers end-to-end encryption (as they state on their pricing
page).

Not all cryptographers agree that 128 bit AES or even 256AES is infallible.
They're not advised officially by certain agencies as secure anymore.
Thirdly, usual exploitation is via the apps, not the 256AES data.
Fourthly given enough numerical method processing time and numbers crunching it is not guaranteed they will not break.
Fifthly, with quantum computers prototypes already and in a several years working commercial models, they won't be guaranteed anymore.
Realistically, for an average Joe or regularly company like most of us, 256AES more than suffices though.

Plus: Not really. I mentioned truly private & truly personal clouds too:
NextCloud, OwnCloud, WebDav servers, etc.
Also other personal clouds like any synology, Samba servers, FTP/SFTP servers, WD cloud drives, etc. is possible.
These are truly private, better than Obsidian cloud, as one can do exactly what one wants, including:
e2e encryption
firewalls
scripts
etc etc one wants to implement, many off the shelf commercial turnkey options available to buy too.

While maybe true of Roam (as it is of Google, Evernote, and other online
services), it is most certainly not true of Obsidian. Obsidian does not
see your data, which is stored locally and not sent to their servers.

With respect to a few points, I said this several times myself.

Luhmann wrote:

For a team of just two, one wonders if they sleep. (I
should also add that they even read posts in this forum, even if they
don't always respond to them directly.)

Thank you for sharing your feelings about the Obsidian+Dynalist and Roam teams. And like you, I am impressed by how much progress the 2-person Dynalist team have been able to make on the product, year after year, and how active they are on their own Discourse. In short, I have a lot of respect for the team. Being more of Dynalist-person than an Obsidian-person, selfishly, I am just a bit worried that with the team now also working on Obsidian, progress on Dynalist won't be as fast it otherwise could have been.

‑Alex

https://www.youtube.com/user/thehyperadvisor/videos

Erica Xu recently posted some reflections on their work on he Dynalist forum. Elsewhere, she has also mentioned that some work she and Shida do on Obsidian may eventually be refactored to Dynalist -- I believe this would include the WYSIWYG editor they promised to provide for Obsidian and, the one for Dynalist. Makes sense. I'm impressed by the incredible focus and output these two developers do. (All while not bothering to continually tell the world how brilliant they are -- unlike some we've seen.)

Erica's comment:

As many of you have heard, for the past few months we have been working on the side on a new thing called Obsidian 15. Obsidian public beta was launched two days ago, and we figure we should let you guys know about it too.
Obsidian is quite different from Dynalist, as it’s a knowledge base that’s works on top of a local folder of Markdown files. It’s also not an outliner (as in you can’t zoom, expand, or collapse). The use case of Obsidian is more about deliberately writing down and revisiting notes, more than quick and friction-less brainstorming and capturing. Obsidian values connections more, whereas Dynalist values structures more.
If you’re interested in Obsidian, feel free to check it out! Its use case does overlap with Dynalist a bit, but not much, and we’ve heard many people having successes with using both for different purposes. As for Dynalist, we will develop and maintain it as usual; we don’t expect much to change.

They continue to push out significant updates for Dynalist on schedule despite the new project.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Luhmann wrote:

They continue to push out significant updates for Dynalist on schedule
despite the new project.

Paul Korm wrote:

I'm impressed by the incredible focus and output these two developers do.
(All while not bothering to continually tell the world how brilliant they
are -- unlike some we've seen.)

Yes, totally agree. Kudos to Erica and Shida, really.

‑Alex

Bringing things back to Obsidian again – wow, this is really quite impressive! Not available for iPadOS just yet, alas, but the desktop version is amazing. It’s got pretty much everything a CRIMPer could possibly want. However, some intensive testing is now required to see how quickly it falls over…

Cheers!
Bill

It is a nice package, Bill.

The Obsidian roadmap says "mobile apps (lightweight, mostly for viewing and capturing)"

https://trello.com/b/Psqfqp7I/obsidian-roadmap

I keep my Obsidian "databases" ("Vaults") -- really just a collection of folders -- in iCloud and use iAWriter if I want to add/edit on a phone. Not often.

(Lots of readers here seem to have some sort of insider information, so they'll no doubt correct me.)

Ah, that’s a good idea, Paul – I already use iaWriter as a helpful all-in-one solution for various other desktop-only markdown apps. Thanks!

Yes, Obsidian is actually amazing; I had a play last night. I’m delighted to hear mobile apps are on the roadmap.

Could do with a couple of simple back/forward buttons, mind (although the keyboard shortcut is conveniently simple, too). I’m going to try it on some of my heavyweight markdown folders…

Cheers,
Bill

I'm using Roam these days, but on the obsidian forums most people recommend 1Writer as supporting the Obsidian wiki-linking features and sync a bit better than iA writer.... (Note, however, that while Obsidian supports linking to sub-folders, 1Writer does not support this.)

I don't do much wiki-linking in iAWriter on iOS/iPadOS, and if I happen to create a link I'm confident it will "just work" when I get back to Obsidian later.

The important point about 1Writer is that links you created in Obsidian will work there. So you can navigate and read your notes on mobile very much the same way that you would on desktop. (Although it won't show backlinks.)

For those starting fresh are there feature advantages to Obsidian over Roam (apart from price and local storage)?

I mainly work with notes and have looked at Notion (an application tinkerer's nightmare!), Roam (quite pricy), Workflowy and Obsidian.