Opening a thread for discussion of roam-like knowledge managers including Roam, Obsidian (beta app from Dyanlist's Erica), as well as TiddlyWiki and Org-mode (people have made plugins for both to replicate some of Roam's functionality).

My big disappointment with Obsidian is that, despite being by one of the Dynalist developers, it is not an outlining app. It is based on plaintext markdown files. I hope that this can be somewhat mitigated by implementing some of the features of the app FoldingText which tried to make markdown files behave more like an outliner, but it seems like a low priority for the developers. I think that being an outliner at heart is one of the great features of Roam, which gives it a lot of granularity in terms of being able to link (and embed) not just to documents but specific nodes in documents. Obsidian seems to plan to replicate some of this functionality using Markdown headers, but only time will tell if this is as functional as Roam.

On the other hand, the fact that Obsidian is based on Markdown files means that your documents can exist in an external folder, sync via Dropbox (or similar), and be edited and accessed by other apps. This offers a lot of advantages that a database based program like Roam can never fully match. For instance, one could programmatically run scripts on your folder using Shortcuts or AppleScript, etc. to add features that Obsidian doesn't include on its own. And it seems like there is a plugin architecture that might allow third party developers to add new functionality to the app. (In this sense it is perhaps a bit like the app Standard Notes, although that has a limited number of extensions.)

Absolutely - this is one of the major reasons why I’ve moved away from Ulysses (and Bear, actually), although I’m very fond of it both as a writing but also as an information management app. An organised collection of markdown files is one of info management’s most wonderful things, but needs stringent discipline and a really good search function.

Also, dare I say, I nice, aesthetically pleasing editor or editors (which is where Bear is especially strong). Typora is glorious, but is desktop-based and doesn’t support standard tagging.

Luhmann wrote:

On the other hand, the fact that Obsidian is based on
Markdown files means that your documents can exist in
an external folder, sync via Dropbox (or similar), and be
edited and accessed by other apps. This offers a lot of
advantages that a database based program like Roam
can never fully match.

In fairness, Obsidian has only had a small handful of iterations, with no significant features posted to testers until four days ago. Even already it is available on macOS, Windows, and Linux. The dev call is a "markdown knowledge based app". (What is an "outliner" anyway? I don't think the definition is settled). I think it's great they are doing this with plaintext markdown in the background, and without all the hoo-hah of Roam.

Luhmann wrote:

My big disappointment with Obsidian is that, despite being by one of the
Dynalist developers, it is not an outlining app. It is based on
plaintext markdown files.

Regarding Ulysses, it now offers pretty good support for folders of markdown files, with some limitations:

https://ulysses.app/kb/external-folders

I came across a post related this topic, on top note-taking apps.

https://collegeinfogeek.com/best-note-taking-apps/

I read in a thread, from Obsidian's Erica, I believe, that Obsidian was influenced by Notable.

https://notable.md/

She also started an interesting discussion on Reddit about Obsidian in which she honestly compared it to other apps, including the 'more polish[ed]' Roam Research:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SideProject/comments/fuegtl/obsidian_take_great_notes_in_markdown_and_let/

It seems that Roam pricing is now defined as USD15/month, USD7.50/month academics. Too expensive for me.
https://twitter.com/RoamResearch/status/1250107036970315779?s=20

Looks like IA Writer for me.

Luhmann wrote:

My big disappointment with Obsidian is that, despite being by one of the
Dynalist developers, it is not an outlining app. It is based on
plaintext markdown files. I hope that this can be somewhat mitigated by
implementing some of the features of the app FoldingText which tried to
make markdown files behave more like an outliner, but it seems like a
low priority for the developers. I think that being an outliner at heart
is one of the great features of Roam, which gives it a lot of
granularity in terms of being able to link (and embed) not just to
documents but specific nodes in documents. Obsidian seems to plan to
replicate some of this functionality using Markdown headers, but only
time will tell if this is as functional as Roam.

On the other hand, the fact that Obsidian is based on Markdown files
means that your documents can exist in an external folder, sync via
Dropbox (or similar), and be edited and accessed by other apps.

We might add that ConnectedText is the most "Roam-like knowledge manager," or more precisely, Roam is the most ConnectedText-like knowledge manager." ;-)

Take e.g. Manfred Kuehn's approach to task management with CT's date topics. This could be almost perfectly reconstructed in Roam:

https://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2013/10/how-to-keep-journal-in-connectedtext.html

For now that's the only way I'm willing to use Roam, i.e. as a task manager, and not as a Zettelkasten solution, as I can't see myself doing daily manual backups (considering that Roam does not yet have an automatic backup solution like WorkFlowy or Dynalist have - that's my biggest gripe for now).

I also wouldn't mind more reassurance about security, some sort of encryption of the data, but without slowing the app down too much, if such a thing is possible.

Other then that, I love using Roam for that single purpose of todo management.

Some markdown apps DO have tree type outline levels display, via Headings levels.

Some have it via CSS theme code like Typora:

https://support.typora.io/Auto-Numbering/

Others have it built in, iA Writer (cheap lifetime license, I don't but anything subscription based, increasingly like many subs-cutters) recent Contents Block Display in second column:

https://ia.net/writer/support/general/content-blocks

I'll post a shot of iA with many levels in an example markdown-it file from my laptop (on the phone now) later, showing many tree levels in the tree column, like a traditional outliner.

Another, totally free, with features like iA (dark mode etc) and even more, is QOwnNotes which is updated almost weekly. It's Navigation Panel also shows headings level like a traditional outliner tree levels.

http://www.webupd8.org/2016/09/qownnotes-is-note-taking-and-todo-list.html

You can sync both to a free secure private account on Dropbox. Which is better and more private than any snooping developers hard disk rack in his basement, and even safer than free google drive or MS One Drive accounts when their analytics.

Dropbox is more privacy focused. Still ggl/MS are safer, one's lost alongside billions of other free could accounts and they are policed by themselves. Than at the hands of some guy with a few thousand subscribers who can snoop at will and sell rights to whoever when going belly up.

iA let's you add Dropbox as a folder area to the first column as a working space, just like your local disk work folder. QOwnNotes sync options are there too, Dropbox or even your own cloud (ownCloud or NextCloud). Of course there is also Joplin which syncs too.

Finally, there are many Wiki systems which are either file based or database based plus: are also markdown based. Most are free.

Roam is not simply an outliner with wiki links, what really makes it unique is the fact that links are bi-directional. You see what is linking to a document. This turns out to be very powerful. For instance, if I make a link for a contact, and then make a note about a meeting with that person, I will see the meeting listed under the contact entry, and the contact listed under the meeting entry. Moreover, it isn't just a "backlink" but it shows the context of the link as well, which means you often don't need to open the original document to read the relevant information, or even edit it. As far as I'm aware iA writer doesn't do this.

This also means that tags aren't just tags, but pages you can edit, linking to other related tags for instance, or providing more context explanation about the tag itself.

But Roam doesn't just stop there. It also allows you to clone notes, and embed notes, so the same information can appear in multiple places and editing it in one place edits all the other instances.

And I haven't even discussed its powerful query syntax that lets you embed not just linked notes or embedded notes, but also to produce your own complex queries to populate pages.

And there are many other features as well, such as versioning, todo, etc.

Yes, Obsidian still lacks much of this, but then I doubt it has been around for even a full month. I'm sure it will catch up quickly, and probably go off in its own direction the same way Dynalist departed from Workflowy...

By the way, it isn't just Erica working on Obsidian, it is both of the Dynalist creators: Erica and Shida. Shida has just been less vocal.

Someone on Reddit made a list of Roam-like open-source alternatives:

https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/f0z6yd/open_source_alternatives_to_roam_research/

Stay safe everyone. The year is going to be a rough ride. Hopefully 2021 will start a bit better.
Meanwhile, the CRIMP virus seems to be harmless so far :-))

Skywatcher wrote:

Stay safe everyone. The year is going to be a rough ride. Hopefully 2021
will start a bit better.
Meanwhile, the CRIMP virus seems to be harmless so far :-))

ooops sorry, wrong thread. The confinement is making lose touch with reality :-)

I experimented with export from Roam. It led me to consider that lock-in is going to be a major problem with Roam. The export of notes to markdown is minimally useful because all the inter-note linking is non-functional in the export. I reject the JSON export as unrealistic -- I like most are not about to look for third-party software just to be able to recapture data from JSON. JSON is readable but entirely unfriendly for common users.

So if Roam is only offering the illusion of backup and export, but nothing truly portable, that's a major failing -- in addition to the cloud-only nature of the service, and the flakey proprietor.

Inter-note using the [[wikilinks]] syntax is an emergent standard in markdown and is supported by Obsidian among others. Files exported from Roam work fine in Obsidian, although I had to run a script to convert #tags to [[links]]. (But one can use either method in Roam.) Other apps, such as FSNotes and 1Writer seem to support this standard, but do a search rather than linking directly to a particular file.

Regarding JSON export, I think this might be more for internal use by Roam, to more reliably migrate Roam data from one database to another.

Of course, many other Roam features will break on export however, such as Roam's query and embed syntax which are unique to Roam, so your point well taken, I just wanted to qualify it somewhat based on my experience.


Paul Korm wrote:

I experimented with export from Roam. It led me to consider that
lock-in is going to be a major problem with Roam. The export of notes
to markdown is minimally useful because all the inter-note linking is
non-functional in the export. I reject the JSON export as unrealistic
-- I like most are not about to look for third-party software just to be
able to recapture data from JSON. JSON is readable but entirely
unfriendly for common users.

So if Roam is only offering the illusion of backup and export, but
nothing truly portable, that's a major failing -- in addition to the
cloud-only nature of the service, and the flakey proprietor.

I am still torn between Obsidian and Roam

On the Obsidian side:

I like the Obsidian developers better, and I agree that the system is more future proof and there is less concern for lock-in. Also, because it is a folder of markdown files, I can open and work with my text easily on my phone using 1Writer or similar apps. Roam is still an awful experience on the phone and practically useless.

On the Roam side:

I simply prefer working with an outliner than with plain text files. I like the fact that each item can be linked or embedded separately, while retaining the context of the outline. I like folding and zooming. It is just how I like to work. I came to this forum initially looking for something like Workflowy that would work on my phone, and eventually Dynalist delivered. I love Dynalist, so I am disappointed that they chose not to base their roam competitor on an outliner. It may be that they eventually add outliner-like features to Obsidian, but it seems like it won't be a priority for a while.

So I guess I will have to wait and see if Obsidian adds outliner features first, or if Roam releases a decent mobile app first. Right now I think the latter is more likely... Or maybe a third option will show up? (None of what is out there comes close in my opinion.)

I should clarify a few things.

There was some discussion in the Obsidian discord forums about the choice not to base Obsidian on an outliner. There are a lot of good reasons for their choices including portability, compatibility, long term reliability of your data, and technical reasons involving the editor (they had to do a lot of custom coding for the editor in Dynalist). I don't doubt that these reasons are all perfectly good and legitimate - I was just responding to my own thinking about how I like to work ... which is in an outliner. I should also add that I shared the app FoldingText with the developers as an example of integrating outliner like features into a plaintext markdown app and they are considering the possibility of doing so, but it is really too early to say whether this will make it to the initial released app or not.

I add this because I want to clarify that these are very real tradeoffs. In an ideal world one could have everything: an app with a native Mac/iOS feel and integration that also was cross platform, an app that supported open standards, but also supported features that aren't easily integrated into those standards, etc. Some people here might prefer one side of the equation and some the other, but it is unlikely that we will get one single app that checks all the boxes for everyone.

One thing I will say, however, is that the character of the developer is important. And even though I may prefer using Roam right now, I really like the team behind Dynalist and am rooting for them to succeed. Obsidian is also very exciting right now because the developers are still very open to suggestions, so there is a real opportunity to help shape the future of the app.

I think Erica and Shida are outstanding developers, though I'm concerned Obsidian might be a fling and not a thing -- since they are clearly splitting time between Dynalist and Obsidian. Extremely early days -- Obsidian is barely more than a proof of concept today, but worth supporting and encouraging. Would like to see a donationware link soon.

Luhmann wrote:

I am still torn between Obsidian and Roam
I like the Obsidian developers better, and I agree that the system is
more future proof and there is less concern for lock-in. Also, because
it is a folder of markdown files, I can open and work with my text
easily on my phone using 1Writer or similar apps.

Obsidian has released their pricing. Note that even though sync isn't included in the free tier, one could use one's own sync solution, such as Dropbox.

https://obsidian.md/pricing.html

If I actually end up using Obsidian as part of my daily workflow I will certainly support them. Having a discussion with them now about discounts for academic, non-profits, and early adopters, etc.

The pricing is insane. Simply arrogant. They have barely provided much more than a toy model so far. "Publish" is essential for me for these apps, but $240 annual is beyond realistic. Deleting the beta immediately.

Luhmann wrote:

Regarding Ulysses, it now offers pretty good support for folders of
markdown files, with some limitations:

https://ulysses.app/kb/external-folders

Paul Korm wrote:

The pricing is insane. Simply arrogant. They have barely provided much
more than a toy model so far. "Publish" is essential for me for these
apps, but $240 annual is beyond realistic. Deleting the beta
immediately.

Hopefully they come to their senses in the face of market forces.

To be fair, they do continue to reiterate that the product is a beta, and so whatever discussions about pricing relate to a future, not-yet-existing state of the product.

Paul Korm wrote:

The pricing is insane. Simply arrogant. They have barely provided much
more than a toy model so far. "Publish" is essential for me for these
apps, but $240 annual is beyond realistic.

Where did you see $240? Most recent prices from the official Twitter account are $180, with 50% discount for academics.

(Not that I'm buying at either price.)

I've actually been working on my own knowledge manager, directly inspired by
Roam. It's called Thinktool, and there's a version publicly available at
https://thinktool.io if anyone's interested.

Thinktool is basically a combination of three ideas:

1. Looks and behaves like an outliner
2. Items can have multiple parents, inspired by TheBrain
3. Roam-style bidirectional linking

The main advantage over Roam for me is that in Thinktool you don't have to
organize your notes into "pages". Instead you just have a single outline, where
each item can be in multiple places. It's technically possible to replicate
something like this in Roam with transclusion, but it gets pretty awkward for
large outlines.

When you look at an item in Thinktool, it automatically shows you all the other
places where that item is. That includes both other parents (like TheBrain) and
textual links (like Roam). This approach gives you a lot of freedom to structure
your notes how you want.

It's in a pre-alpha state right now, but I'm using it myself. I'd love to get
some feedback on whether this is a useful concept and if so, what the most
important improvements would be.

(By the way, I've been lurking this forum for a while, but this is my first post
here. I hope it's not considered too rude that my first post is about my own
product!)

On Obsidian's website, same link as posted earlier in this thread.

https://obsidian.md/pricing.html

(My post was about Obsidian, not Roam.)

satis wrote:>

Where did you see $240?