I am faced, once again, with a project building a database that assigns faculty to classes, sets up payment rules for those classes, and then runs a routine merging faculty with classes and tell HR what to pay the faculty.

The good news is that the database is commercial and already in use at the college. My challenge is that I have to get familiar with myriad forms (screens) and their elements, and how those element interact with elements on other screens.

NOW THE QUESTION IS WHAT TO USE (AND I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO CHANGE MY INFOBASE MIDSTREAM).

I started using VooDooPad briefly, but it seems just too Spartan. And it isn't really maintained like it has a bright future.

That leaves DevonThink 3 or Tinderbox. Learning Tinderbox is a chore in itself to learn, and I don't know it much past the VooDooPad level.

So, would any of you who are familiar with the apps listed feel comfortable starting using DevonThink? The good news is that DevonThink and Tinderbox seem to like one another's data, and can interact to some degree.

For what it's worth: I'm not confident that any of the three suggested applications will really be ideal for what you need. VoodoPad is essentially a wiki, and also, as I think you imply, perhaps less persistently developed that when it was in the care of its original developer. There are many opinions about what Tinderbox is best for, but here's mine: identifying "emergent" structure. As that description suggests, it's much more about exploring data for its meaning, usually data expressed in words, than manipulating it for other purposes. DevonThink, though it can be used for multiple purposes, is essentially a document manager on steroids. What I think you may need is a database manager - but I have much less experience of those. I assume that you're using a Mac: Tap Forms comes to mind, but I don't know whether it will do what you require.

I do have Filemaker Pro, and that might be good if I have a means of multiple fields to act as tags.

So, your project is to create a set of how-to notes for your own use?

I wouldn't use DEVONthink -- it's hard to use for cases where you want to work with an array visual information (like screens) side-by-side. I wouldn't use VooDooPad because the owner appears to have abandoned it the most part.

I would prefer Curio over Tinderbox for creating documentation. Mainly because Curio works better with screen shots and graphics. The latest version of Curio (13) also includes a "references" feature that helps link together related elements in the workspace -- as you would probably do by making notes that explain forms and elements on a screen shot. (I'm guessing.) Curio scales a lot better than Tinderbox if you need to work with a lot of images. Images imported into Tinderbox can easily bring it to its knees.

Or maybe consider Notion.

Jeffrey Smith wrote

My challenge is that I have to get familiar with myriad forms (screens) and their elements,
and how those element interact with elements on other screens.

I am a bit confused about which parts YOU do versus which parts the software app is to do.

* Do YOU manually assign the faculty to the classes, or should the software do this (through some optimization routines)?

* Do YOU manually set up the payment rules for the classes in advance, or is the software supposed to do this somehow?

* What is meant by "runs a routine merging faculty with classes" ...?

I have to think that what you want is this ...

(Database of Faculty)
(Database of Classes)
(Database of Payment Rules for Classes)
(Database of Faculty Assignments for Semester)
--> payments required per faculty

I have to imagine that a spreadsheet app could do the job using internal cell functions and reference calls.

Alternatively, I have to think that the datatool package in LaTeX might do what you need (and give you a nicely-formatted PDF report to submit with no greater effort).

The FileMaker Pro app should be able to tear this up with no problem.

Little that I know about it, someone is bound to say that you should use an SQL variant database tool.

Is this where you are going with what you need?

The feature that made me favor Tinderbox is the ability to have boxes on the left, but organized text at the right. DevonThink just seemed too "small" to me.

I have been trying to like Curio for years. The project would be aptly called "to create a set of how-to notes for my own use". Paul, I'll take your advice and work on Curio in the morning. I do have v13. And being able to past some screen shots of those form screens would be essential.

Thank you!

Jeffery

Paul Korm wrote:

So, your project is to create a set of how-to notes for your own use?

I wouldn't use DEVONthink -- it's hard to use for cases where you want
to work with an array visual information (like screens) side-by-side.
I wouldn't use VooDooPad because the owner appears to have abandoned it
the most part.

I would prefer Curio over Tinderbox for creating documentation. Mainly
because Curio works better with screen shots and graphics. The latest
version of Curio (13) also includes a "references" feature that helps
link together related elements in the workspace -- as you would probably
do by making notes that explain forms and elements on a screen shot.
(I'm guessing.) Curio scales a lot better than Tinderbox if you need
to work with a lot of images. Images imported into Tinderbox can
easily bring it to its knees.

Or maybe consider Notion.

Jeffrey Smith wrote
>My challenge is that I have to get familiar with myriad forms (screens)
and their elements,
>and how those element interact with elements on other screens.

I realize that my challenge is sort of an odd one.

What I need to learn (and then teach others) is part of a much larger Human Resource system (named Banner) that is essentially a huge relational database with modules for Human Resources, Student Records, and Class Offerings, It is like PeopleSoft, but better implemented for higher education.

What I have are dozens of screens, some of which are HR screens, some of which are Student Record (enrollment) screens, and some of which are rules for how faculty will be paid based on which classes are linked to each instructor. So, I'm working within a pre-defined database to which I have to link records using multiple tables. What I need is some sort of visual system (or WikiLink system) until I get straight in my head which tables link to which tables, and which fields are absolutely essential. So, I'm teaching myself because the vendor of the software would prefer that I spend a week in another state learning en masse with others. That's not an option because I'm serving as a consultant on this for the next 6 months. I actually had the system prepared and ready to implement when someone at the college pulled the plug on it at the last minute. That was in 2016, so I'm re-acquainting myself with the very complicated system 3 years later.

It is a difficult system to get set up and implemented because it doesn't necessarily match up with the way things have been done in the past.

J J Weimer wrote:

I am a bit confused about which parts YOU do versus which parts the
software app is to do.

* Do YOU manually assign the faculty to the classes, or should the
software do this (through some optimization routines)?

* Do YOU manually set up the payment rules for the classes in advance,
or is the software supposed to do this somehow?

* What is meant by "runs a routine merging faculty with classes" ...?

I have to think that what you want is this ...

(Database of Faculty)
(Database of Classes)
(Database of Payment Rules for Classes)
(Database of Faculty Assignments for Semester)
--> payments required per faculty

I have to imagine that a spreadsheet app could do the job using internal
cell functions and reference calls.

Alternatively, I have to think that the datatool package in LaTeX might
do what you need (and give you a nicely-formatted PDF report to submit
with no greater effort).

The FileMaker Pro app should be able to tear this up with no problem.

Little that I know about it, someone is bound to say that you should use
an SQL variant database tool.

Is this where you are going with what you need?

Actually, this IS pretty much the database structure. And Filemaker Pro would allow pasting of screen shots in the database. I've used Filemaker Pro since it was known as Leading Edge Nutshell (I'm sure the average age of this forum will be advanced enough for you all to recognize Nutshell).

What we use for contracts now is a Filemaker Pro database that I have been modifying since 1998. We have to download Excel files, import them into my database, and then use calculated fields to determine the workload and pay. The end result is a paper contract that we print and sign. This is Louisiana, and we are finally going to leap headfirst into an entirely online system of contracts (with paper as a backup until we are sure it works!)
===========
J J Weimer wrote:

(Database of Faculty)

(Database of Classes)
(Database of Payment Rules for Classes)
(Database of Faculty Assignments for Semester)
—> payments required per faculty

I think you have at least three problems.

1) a series of linked Data whose structure is not entirely known - defining emergent structure - Tinderbox (if the structure is complex enough).Understand how values and tables are linked. if you choose Tinderbox, you now have 4 problems. I am joking a little bit, but I think Beck’s Tinderbox videos are the most approachable. The map view in Tinderbox is great for trying to relate bits of data together until a structure emerges. Curio can do this as well with arrows and boxes, but Tinderbox seems to fit my brain better.
2) understanding the flow of your current software - screen shot/movie documentation - Curio for annotation, perhaps Snagit for for capture of screen shots and gifts.
3) Database of linked values - FileMaker,Excell,Airtable

Systems Analyst job. First 2 paragraphs contradict, bad news is need new database + good news is already big college database by IT Dept done.

Terminology & SA clearing needed: need new views or gui interface or form based app maker on Mac to tap into the big database. In other words:

A MySQL Client for Mac, linking into the college db.

Not big database makers, starting from scratch.

Can try Querious 2 or DbSchema, both cheap.
Or play with top free ones, unstable though, Sequel Pro or Vfront.
However maybe too big a job for you & big waste of time to play with SQL query programming.

I suggest to get a list of contenders based on features & screenshots you like from various: Mac Database GUI interface client options and take them to the person(s) in charge of the college big database that has to be tapped and get them to suggest easy one that works well.

They probably already have tried a few and use some. What apps you suggest will probably be dismissed, so just take a few names and say these any good for this system? Can just take the names I suggested and not waste time.

Then get them to fix any problems while you set it up. Sneaky way as it will be their suggestion in the first place. In the long run, it will be less work for them anyway this way. And much less pain for you.

Judging from the 3 inappropriate suggestions, playing around would be a waste of time anyway.

Ha! Banner was designed in the dark ages of 640x480 monitors and has remained locked in its UI approach since then. It is written to establish a fantasy-land, multi-screen flowchart with only ascii text input for the process that faculty and staff should use to manage student and finance records in academic institutions. I have heard that the same group of computer engineers wrote similar-looking software for nurses to monitor patients in triage and hospital situations.

But I digress. :-/

What is hear is that you want to develop a training plan for folks who have not been initiated to the system. You want it to be visual.

For this goal, I would suggest using Curio. It will allow you to capture screen shots of the Web browser input, paste them on a whiteboard, lay them out in a workflow, annotate and describe them, and hyperlink them to each other and/or to external resources.

Jeffery Smith wrote:

I realize that my challenge is sort of an odd one.

What I need to learn (and then teach others) is part of a much larger
Human Resource system (named Banner) that is essentially a huge
relational database with modules for Human Resources, Student Records,
and Class Offerings, It is like PeopleSoft, but better implemented for
higher education.

What I have are dozens of screens, some of which are HR screens, some of
which are Student Record (enrollment) screens, and some of which are
rules for how faculty will be paid based on which classes are linked to
each instructor. So, I'm working within a pre-defined database to which
I have to link records using multiple tables. What I need is some sort
of visual system (or WikiLink system) until I get straight in my head
which tables link to which tables, and which fields are absolutely
essential. So, I'm teaching myself because the vendor of the software
would prefer that I spend a week in another state learning en masse with
others. That's not an option because I'm serving as a consultant on this
for the next 6 months. I actually had the system prepared and ready to
implement when someone at the college pulled the plug on it at the last
minute. That was in 2016, so I'm re-acquainting myself with the very
complicated system 3 years later.

It is a difficult system to get set up and implemented because it
doesn't necessarily match up with the way things have been done in the
past.

J J Weimer wrote:
I am a bit confused about which parts YOU do versus which parts the
>software app is to do.
>
>* Do YOU manually assign the faculty to the classes, or should the
>software do this (through some optimization routines)?
>
>* Do YOU manually set up the payment rules for the classes in advance,
>or is the software supposed to do this somehow?
>
>* What is meant by "runs a routine merging faculty with classes" ...?
>
>I have to think that what you want is this ...
>
>(Database of Faculty)
>(Database of Classes)
>(Database of Payment Rules for Classes)
>(Database of Faculty Assignments for Semester)
>--> payments required per faculty
>
>I have to imagine that a spreadsheet app could do the job using
internal
>cell functions and reference calls.
>
>Alternatively, I have to think that the datatool package in LaTeX might
>do what you need (and give you a nicely-formatted PDF report to submit
>with no greater effort).
>
>The FileMaker Pro app should be able to tear this up with no problem.
>
>Little that I know about it, someone is bound to say that you should
use
>an SQL variant database tool.
>
>Is this where you are going with what you need?

FMPro is likely the most effective tool to do the database integration, off-line analysis, and contract printout. Especially since you already know and use it. Somewhere long ago I developed a server integration to a FMPro database that held registration inputs to a regional conference. It ran on a Mac using what I think was called Tango. I was impressed then, and I can only imagine that the integrations are better now.

Also, I am next door in Alabama. Bring what you create over here when you are done.

Jeffery Smith wrote:

Actually, this IS pretty much the database structure. And Filemaker Pro
would allow pasting of screen shots in the database. I've used Filemaker
Pro since it was known as Leading Edge Nutshell (I'm sure the average
age of this forum will be advanced enough for you all to recognize
Nutshell).

What we use for contracts now is a Filemaker Pro database that I have
been modifying since 1998. We have to download Excel files, import them
into my database, and then use calculated fields to determine the
workload and pay. The end result is a paper contract that we print and
sign. This is Louisiana, and we are finally going to leap headfirst into
an entirely online system of contracts (with paper as a backup until we
are sure it works!)
===========
J J Weimer wrote:
(Database of Faculty)
(Database of Classes)
(Database of Payment Rules for Classes)
(Database of Faculty Assignments for Semester)
—> payments required per faculty

Filemaker Pro just created a cloud version. Since 1998, I've been making run-time programs and distributing them to about 12 people across the college 6-7 times a year. Banner is a panacea compared to PeopleSoft, and it was easy migrating data from the mainframe SISPlus to Banner. But I really found the old SISPlus easier to train people on, and easier to use just by memory.

I have been looking for tutorials on Curio, but it looks like reading the manual will be my educational method for myself.

J J Weimer wrote:

FMPro is likely the most effective tool to do the database integration,
off-line analysis, and contract printout. Especially since you already
know and use it. Somewhere long ago I developed a server integration to
a FMPro database that held registration inputs to a regional conference.
It ran on a Mac using what I think was called Tango. I was impressed
then, and I can only imagine that the integrations are better now.

Also, I am next door in Alabama. Bring what you create over here when
you are done.

Jeffery Smith wrote:
Actually, this IS pretty much the database structure. And Filemaker Pro
>would allow pasting of screen shots in the database. I've used
Filemaker
>Pro since it was known as Leading Edge Nutshell (I'm sure the average
>age of this forum will be advanced enough for you all to recognize
>Nutshell).
>
>What we use for contracts now is a Filemaker Pro database that I have
>been modifying since 1998. We have to download Excel files, import them
>into my database, and then use calculated fields to determine the
>workload and pay. The end result is a paper contract that we print and
>sign. This is Louisiana, and we are finally going to leap headfirst
into
>an entirely online system of contracts (with paper as a backup until we
>are sure it works!)
>===========
>J J Weimer wrote:
>(Database of Faculty)
>(Database of Classes)
>(Database of Payment Rules for Classes)
>(Database of Faculty Assignments for Semester)
>—> payments required per faculty

I'm the only Mac person at the college (2nd largest college in Louisiana, second only to LSU), so my Mac part will just be for me to teach myself.

Most of the work of the department chairs will be to (1) assign faculty to classes (they already do that), and (2) using another screen to indicate how they are to be paid. Number (2) sounds easier than it is. Typical liberal arts classes are straightforward, but the practicums, co-ops, clinicals, low enrollment classes are all coded in different ways.

University IT departments have guidelines, processes & procedures on querying their relational databases & tables. There are even more good options I could detail.

Jeffery Smith wrote:

What I need to learn (and then teach others) is part of a much larger
Human Resource system (named Banner) that is essentially a huge
relational database with modules for Human Resources, Student Records,
and Class Offerings, It is like PeopleSoft, but better implemented for
higher education.

What I have are dozens of screens, some of which are HR screens, some of
which are Student Record (enrollment) screens, and some of which are
rules for how faculty will be paid based on which classes are linked to
each instructor. So, I'm working within a pre-defined database to which
I have to link records using multiple tables. What I need is some sort
of visual system (or WikiLink system) until I get straight in my head
which tables link to which tables, and which fields are absolutely
essential. So, I'm teaching myself because the vendor of the software
would prefer that I spend a week in another state learning en masse with
others.

Hi Jeffrey,

I've read this thread numerous times and it is still not clear (1) what you have, (2) what you need and (3) who will use this...
(this last post of yours did help explain it a bit)

1. If you have access to the database, why not open it in a database manager and look at the structure, the tables, the relations, the keys, etc
2. Once the database structure is known, you will want to explore the UI that was build to enter / view the data. A visual tool may be useful, but any writing tool can do the job. It is basically a writing exercise, to document the processes
3. If the audience, i.e. those that will use your work, is on a single OS, an OS specific tool seems appropriate, otherwise it could either be (1) a document on a dropbox-like server which users would download, (2) a shared Google Doc, or (3) a web hosted document (which is what I use to document InfoQube)

HTH

Pierre
IQ Designer

It is a bit unusual. Banner is a large database system, and it comes in several versions. As new versions are released, one can choose to stay with the previous version if there is no benefit to upgrading. What I'm going to be working on is a module (from Ellucian) that works with Banner by accessing Banner's tables related to Human Resources, Payroll, and Student Affairs (class offerings and schedules). Thus, I have the task of getting some familiarity with tables in all three areas as well as how to link them.

What Curio will hopefully let me do is create a knowledge base for my own use until I get everything up and running. Then I'll have to train the department chairs on how to use it. I think Curio will be good for that as well, as it has some graphics capability.

Jeffery

I believe @J J Weimer who posted earlier in this thread uses Curio for presentations -- he might have some tips for you on that front. Curio is far superior to Tinderbox for export cases like yours.

Jeffery Smith wrote:

What Curio will hopefully let me do is create a knowledge base for my
own use until I get everything up and running. Then I'll have to train
the department chairs on how to use it. I think Curio will be good for
that as well, as it has some graphics capability.

As Paul Korm noted, I use Curio exclusively to develop my lecture and research presentations.

I'd be glad to pick up the discussions in the Curio user forum.

Jeffery Smith wrote:

...
What Curio will hopefully let me do is create a knowledge base for my
own use until I get everything up and running. Then I'll have to train
the department chairs on how to use it. I think Curio will be good for
that as well, as it has some graphics capability.

Jeffery

I’d totally agree with those who’ve suggested:

Curio for purposes of analysis

FileMaker Pro for eventual DBMS setup and integration (it has support for MySQL)

Best of luck - sounds like a somewhat painful project!

Bill

Can you point me to the Curio forum? URL?

J J Weimer wrote:

As Paul Korm noted, I use Curio exclusively to develop my lecture and
research presentations.

I'd be glad to pick up the discussions in the Curio user forum.

Jeffery Smith wrote:
>...
>What Curio will hopefully let me do is create a knowledge base for my
>own use until I get everything up and running. Then I'll have to train
>the department chairs on how to use it. I think Curio will be good for
>that as well, as it has some graphics capability.
>
>Jeffery

https://forums.zengobi.com

Jeffery Smith wrote:

Can you point me to the Curio forum? URL?

J J Weimer wrote:
As Paul Korm noted, I use Curio exclusively to develop my lecture and
>research presentations.
>
>I'd be glad to pick up the discussions in the Curio user forum.
>
>Jeffery Smith wrote:
>>...
>>What Curio will hopefully let me do is create a knowledge base for my
>>own use until I get everything up and running. Then I'll have to train
>>the department chairs on how to use it. I think Curio will be good for
>>that as well, as it has some graphics capability.
>>
>>Jeffery

I get a lot of good out of Devonthink for large libraries of PDF files and notes. Curio sure looks nice, though.

If I understand correctly, it doesn't have to store projects in the cloud. Cloud storage is nice, and I use it, but anything that requires the cloud is not generally of interest to me.

Right, Curio at this time does not have an iOS/iPaOS counterpart so there's no reason to store Curio projects in iCloud, unless you want.

Amontillado wrote:

I get a lot of good out of Devonthink for large libraries of PDF files
and notes. Curio sure looks nice, though.

If I understand correctly, it doesn't have to store projects in the
cloud. Cloud storage is nice, and I use it, but anything that requires
the cloud is not generally of interest to me.

Curio looks very nice indeed, and may be superior to the mish-mash currently serving my needs. There is a non-existent mind map feature I sure would like to get, though.

I call it "views."

Imagine a mind map of the Hatfield and McCoy genealogies. It's nice, but now you want to obsess over murders. Instead of making a separate mind map, you use File->New->View to create a view called Who Murdered Who. It looks like a blank mind map. If you create a new node, it will appear as a new orphan node in the master view, the family tree you started with. Or, you could include a node from the master view. That wouldn't change the master view in any way. You could include all or a subset of nodes from the master view and link them in new ways.

Another view could be the improbable map of personal hygiene and hair care products the members of the feuding families favored. Another could be caliber of choice.

There is only one copy of each node, so as you added web page or external file links, or edited an attached note, that would be global. If you delete a view, you just delete one map of relationships, not any nodes. An option to also delete nodes not appearing in other views and without parent or child nodes in the master view would be a nice touch.

A view, in other words, would be a roster of which nodes should be included and a network of links.

How else could you explore the undiscovered relationships between Devil Anse Hatfieild and his bath salts?

Or, is this why I should conquer Tinderbox's learning curve?