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The Checklist Manifesto
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Posted by washere
May 7, 2019 at 09:05 AM
It’s good to specify what the actual debate is about, not always the case here, before it goes on, and on.
Posted by nathanb
May 7, 2019 at 11:26 AM
washere wrote:
>OMG this topic is going to go on forever too I guess as it’s not clear
>what the actual debate is about as with many other threads which rambles
>off topic into a myriad of sideways. This is like the nurture-nature
>debate, no end in sight.
>
>Except to be precise, here it’s Top-down (checklist) vs bottom-up
>(flexible). Endless and pointless debate. Horses for courses. The actual
>topic though is about the Top-down checklist approach. More Minsky than
>Von Neumann.
I guess it’s moved away from the book, but I interpreted the question as an inquiry about how others apply checklists. That we’ve established obvious use cases like surgery or aviation, where routine is established and stakes are high, but how do we apply them to more fuzzy areas without getting lost in the sauce? Maybe I read too much into the original post, as I’ve been thinking intensely about the use, abuse, and deliverance from checklists in my line of work for many years now. I thought the discussion was about what the boundary of the checklist domain looks like, about where it’s useful and where it fails, and why.
Somewhat related, this dichotomy might be a useful way to look at it: Frankenstacks and Rhizomes- https://mailchi.mp/ribbonfarm/frankenstacks-and-rhizomes?e=9621d0c003
Posted by washere
May 7, 2019 at 02:12 PM
I don’t think it’s that complicated. For example let’s consider a shopping list. In the supermarket one might remember something needed not on the list. Or there might be something nice on offer with a huge price reduction that is tempting. Or another item that might open up the potential of another item already on the list. Or something one discovers or is recently launched. Or something another person recommends. Or warns about to replace with something else more healthy or better or same yet cheaper. The “realistic” scenarios can be endless.
It’s still an essential checklist however one is still flexible and more “open”.
Posted by Paul Korm
May 7, 2019 at 10:28 PM
I think of a checklist as a reproducible sequence of events or decisions (which are also events) that lead with certainty to an outcome specified in advance. (“You’ll arrive at Mars if you start with step one and continue to step 11,234.”) It takes a lot of time, talent, and treasure to come up with that sort of checklist, and equally so to execute against it.
Shopping lists are more or less colloquial or vernacular “check lists”. I think we mentally make those sort of lists and burn through them all day long.
Posted by washere
May 8, 2019 at 12:36 AM
That’s a Flow Chart. Still a checklist that, as i said in the first comment on this thread, what pilots and consultant surgeons, like the author, go through. It can also be called procedural modularity etc.
The point, despite the foolproof example seems lost, again. It is pointless to say whether the top-down analytical approach is correct or if the bottom-up perceptual approach is correct. Both, checklists & flexibility are needed. Just as anyone saying all is by nature or all is by nurture is looked upon as an idiot nowadays.
Procedural checklists or Flow charts give way to a more complex theoretical field, then it is another area of study. It does not stop there either, can get more complex still. But if the shopping list example is too difficult to drive the main point home, lets not complicate more needlessly.
However the debate here is whether to checklist or not to checklist. The answer is yes, but it is not everything. Just like the many examples I gave regarding the shopping list are forks in the checklist needing decisions. Which is what actual life is like, as I said here too, making decisions on your feet.