Not about outlining per se but Liquidtext has been mentioned here enough to merit posting a link to an unusually informative review of using the iPad app Liquidtext to read, annotate Pdfs and actually use the annotations elsewhere:

http://www.macdrifter.com/2018/12/taking-notes-on-an-ipad-with-liquidtext.html

Thank you for the link -- it's a good article.

I've used LiquidText since way back in alpha days, and enjoy it a lot. The team behind LT is super helpful and responsive, and have built an interesting, solid, responsive app -- that not only does a good job at its intended use, but is always fun to use.

After a first try with one of the first iPads I have abstained from trying to employ a tablet professionally. In preparation of a new project coming up with lots of new literature to read, I am giving it a new try with a 12.9 iPad, which should arrive sometime soon.

I'll take a look a Liquidtext as well as Marginnote, the main focus is going to be using the annotations made while reading outside of the context of the PDFs themselves, e.g. in Devonthink, Tiddlywiki, Tinderbox.... It would be particularly good to be able to modify the annotations subsequently without compromising the functionality of the links.

If anyone has experience with LT or MN in this regard, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

If I understand the requirement, you want to do note taking against a body of documents, and cross-link or cross-reference the notes between documents? As you know, both MN and LT can do this. As a note taking tool, I think MarginNote is as good as it not a bit better than LiquidText. For export, LiquidText is best. MarginNote's export on iPad is pretty bad, and just a bit better in the macOS version.

In MN you can principally export as .mmap (MindJet MindManager format) documents or a set of RTF files. The .mmap that MN produces is useless for most purposes -- it has incomplete data, there is something weirdly wrong with the developer's understanding of the .mmap standard format. The RTF files are ugly and always need reformatting. MN still has a way to go before it is a good note taking companion for professional use. The best thing about MN is that is available on macOS and iOS -- and the developer has finally managed to get iCloud sync working reliably.

On the other hand, LT can also let you combine multiple documents into a package, take notes across all those files, and export the notes as a whole. If you use DEVONthink to Go, which support iOS's document provider service, then in LT you can quickly add a document from DEVONthink via the Files app. (The document is copied -- what you work with in LT has no link back to the original in DEVONthink to Go.) You can also open a web page in LT's internal browser and have LT convert the page to a PDF for you.

There's no way to work with Tinderbox in either app. But you have a better export in LT and can download those notes for use in Tinderbox if you need.

I much appreciate you taking the time to respond, Paul.

Paul Korm wrote:

If I understand the requirement, you want to do note taking against a
body of documents, and cross-link or cross-reference the notes between
documents?

Yes, that is the most urgent requirement, reading loads of academic publications, most of them two column formatted, and annotating them.

There is a technical twist to it in that all of those exist in a folder that Devonthink indexes. I was hoping to find a way to do a roundtrip to Liquidtext and back to Devonthink (to go)each time that was needed but your answer makes it clear that goal will not be easily reached.

As you know, both MN and LT can do this. As a note taking
tool, I think MarginNote is as good as it not a bit better than
LiquidText. For export, LiquidText is best. MarginNote's export on
iPad is pretty bad, and just a bit better in the macOS version.

See above, exporting my notes and annotations are important to me. I'll have to wait until I have that iPad and Pencil how natural the interaction feels. In theory, it seems that an iPad might finally come close to how we used to read and annotate back in the old days, only better, but we all know that not everything we envision materialises just because we want it to.

In MN you can principally export as .mmap (MindJet MindManager format)
documents or a set of RTF files. The .mmap that MN produces is useless
for most purposes -- it has incomplete data, there is something weirdly
wrong with the developer's understanding of the .mmap standard format.
The RTF files are ugly and always need reformatting. MN still has a
way to go before it is a good note taking companion for professional
use. The best thing about MN is that is available on macOS and iOS --
and the developer has finally managed to get iCloud sync working
reliably.

Looks like MN has some ways to go to meet my needs but I'll certainly take a look if anything is to be gained by adapting my expectations to the specific capabilities of MN.

On the other hand, LT can also let you combine multiple documents into a
package, take notes across all those files, and export the notes as a
whole. If you use DEVONthink to Go, which support iOS's document
provider service, then in LT you can quickly add a document from
DEVONthink via the Files app. (The document is copied -- what you work
with in LT has no link back to the original in DEVONthink to Go.)

Bummer.

You can also open a web page in LT's internal browser and have LT convert
the page to a PDF for you.

There's no way to work with Tinderbox in either app. But you have a
better export in LT and can download those notes for use in Tinderbox if
you need.

I am aware of that and expect Tinderbox to be the tool most detached from the original sources, so nothing much is lost here. I have some hope in using Devonthink as an intermediate because it does a reasonably good job at keeping track of things for me, at least that's how I use it.

@Prion I mis-spoke about something and need to correct my comment above. With the current version of LiquidText it *is* possible to open a file from DEVONthink to Go using the interface to Files from inside LT, do highlights and add comments, and have those highlights and comments saved back to the original file. Either on a case-by-case basis or automatically. There's a limitation to this. If you add "ink" comments, or comments on comments, or cross-document comments (as when working with a set of files) then those are not saved back.

This means there is limited cross-app synchronization between DEVONthink to Go and Liquid Text. I think the limitation is due to LT having more robust annotation capability than the PDF standard supports. The only way to get a full set of notes out of LT is to export them as .docx and save that to a new destination such as DEVONthink to Go.

Impressive 30-second overview of the app's folding, functionality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbpwexABTrU

satis

the linked video refers to Liquid Author not Liquidtext, the two apps are completely unrelated (their confusingly similar names notwithstanding)


satis wrote:

Impressive 30-second overview of the app's folding, functionality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbpwexABTrU

Ah, sorry. I was not familiar with the brand or names. But I liked the folding shown in that video.

I've tried both.

LiquidText lacks an iPhone app, which I need.

Margin Note annoyingly exports to specific apps rather than just support standards like OPML, Markdown, Txt, etc. which makes it impossible for me to use as I'd like (since I don't use OmniOutliner)...

I also find mindmaps far less useful and far harder to read/work with on a mobile device than a straight hierarchical outliner...

I really wish someone would make something like these two apps that worked with a Workflowy/Dynalist style outliner directly.