I received today notification from the Goal Enforcer developer of a new software, apparently a one pane outliner:

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We are proud to announce the release of our brand-new product: The Visual Outliner.

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The long-awaited Windows OPML Outliner software that can help you:


- Free up your creativity: “The Bucket of Ideas” will help you harvest your most precious thoughts.

- Clarify your ideas: expand and elaborate on your ideas by adding new topic and subtopic branches.

- Quickly organize your thoughts: rearrange and connect outline entries easily by using drag-and-drop, menu commands or keyboard shotcuts.

- Getting it Done: writing might be intimidating. Creating an outline allows you to move forwarder quicker, even on those days when you don’ fell inspired.

- Good for writing Business Plans, Novels, School Papers, Diaries, Project Planning and Tracking, or whatever you can think of.

- And it’s OPML native, meaning that the outliner is stored in OPML format for easy sharing and tool migration.


If you are familiar with GoalEnforcer, you’ll love the Visual Outliner.

Check for more details at:
http://www.visualoutliner.com/

Theming is useful, and using OPML as native format is a nicety, but hardly a distinction worth a difference ("Yes, you read it right: Native OPML File Storage Format for easy sharing and migration to other software tools. We don't hold you hostage!"), since pretty much all outliners import and export OMPL.

This app seems too much a bare-bones product to be charging $59.99, which is the same price as the much more powerful and comprehensive OmniOutliner. Maybe Windows users are starving for something like this, but I don't see it offering anything compelling that's not found in a free (Mac) app like OutlineEdit

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/outlineedit-beautiful-outliner/id878995413?mt=12

Native OPML might be a little diffferent than import and export.

I think if OmniOutiliner opens (not imports) an OPML file, it will save to the same file name and format.

MindNode (still working with my marginal memory) won’t directly open OPML, and only saves to its own format. You can export to OPML, but simple open-edit-exit won’t update an OPML file like you can in OmniOutliner.

Disclaimer - I haven’t done that in a while, so the latest version may no longer offer that.

It would be handy if both MindNode and OmniOutliner both supported OPML as a native format. Right click, open with OO, or with MN. If they both support document handoff, I presume you could have the same file open as both a map and as an outline at the same time.

It's nice to see a new single-pane outliner for Windows, and this one seems well designed with a useful though basic slew of features. But 60 bucks? Yeah...not. And it isn't clear whether that princely sum is for one user or one machine, though either way, it's too much for what you get.

I'm also not a fan of developers making promises that ultimately they will not be able to keep: "Need more features? Don't be shy, ask us and we will implement it!" I want hoist, and I want it tomorrow...

I agree with this. OPML is hardly a robust format -- the "canonical" definition posted by Weiner years ago doesn't cover what most developers since that time have done with OPML. That's neither here nor there, except it means that not all OPML documents are formatted equally. Something saved as OPML by "Visual Outliner" might be useless in another app, and vice versa. Would have been better if the developer saved documents in JSON (more flexible, also plain text) and written an OPML export feature.

satis wrote:

Theming is useful, and using OPML as native format is a nicety, but
hardly a distinction worth a difference

I might be missing it, but there appears to be no search.

And I agree - for what this program offers and with respect to its competitors, the price is ridiculous.

Jon

I, for one, don't object to charging a premium price based partly on the strength of the underlying concept. The idea of making a brainstorming tool very compelling visually is, I think, sound. My favorite brainstorming tool was ADM, although I didn't use many of the features when brainstorming. Its visual compellingness was actually decisive. Some of the VO themes even resemble ADM.

Unfortunately, this outliner also shares ADM's major flaw, the absence of undo. Isn't it obvious that a brainstorming tool should allow you to painlessly go back?

For me to use this product, it needs only two major features, but (based on memories with others, like MaxThink) undo may be hard to implement if it's not there from the start. The other major feature is multiple selection. Incidentally, I wasn't able to get contiguous selection to work. (Dragging the selection mark didn't extend it but caused it to disappear.)

Stephen, I still miss ADM. I agree about it being "very compelling visually". ADM was attractive, and I liked that it didn't look like a Windows program - it had its own character.

Daly

Stephen Diamond wrote:

I, for one, don't object to charging a premium price based partly on the
strength of the underlying concept. The idea of making a brainstorming
tool very compelling visually is, I think, sound. My favorite
brainstorming tool was ADM, although I didn't use many of the features
when brainstorming. Its visual compellingness was actually decisive.
Some of the VO themes even resemble ADM.

Unfortunately, this outliner also shares ADM's major flaw, the absence
of undo. Isn't it obvious that a brainstorming tool should allow you to
painlessly go back?

For me to use this product, it needs only two major features, but (based
on memories with others, like MaxThink) undo may be hard to implement if
it's not there from the start. The other major feature is multiple
selection. Incidentally, I wasn't able to get contiguous selection to
work. (Dragging the selection mark didn't extend it but caused it to
disappear.)

+ PRICE:

- It's his choice. At this level, for what it is,, it's self harm. Needs to go viral(ish) on launch and this stops it. If halved, he'd sell more than double AND the larger userbase would bring in more sales, PR, etc.

I bought a top spec expensive ultrabook recently which came with Windows Home. Bought Windows Pro, usually triple digit price, for $7 and MS Office Pro license (lifetime, not annual 365 sub) for one pc for $10. Activated fine and phoned Microsoft, they said licenses were fine. One pricing has nothing to do with others, usually, but still what other software can i get for this price? That's the question Hamlet.

Maybe I could spend this money on something else on my bucket list? I buy outliner software for double and triple digit prices, because they're worth it. HyperPlan Pro for example is a bargain considering the complex coding and innovative UI. As are others. This is slightly overpriced but that's his strategic decision. I still wish him luck for making new outliner software.

+ OPML

- It's the best Tree Outliner Structure file format there is. I've tested nearly a thousand software in the last three years. Outliner, Visual Boards, Mind Maps, Folding Editors, IDEs, Note Takers, Stickies, Timeline, Databases, Memory clipboards, Tray note panels, fiction/manual writers, etc etc. I chose about 50 as the best across these genres. I further reduced the number to an elite 15 which form my ToolChain now.

The top 50/15 had to be able to i/o data to any of the others "while maintaining the tree data structure". The only possibility that emerged over the last few years was OPML. Nothing came close. It's the master key. I ended up writing a document which has many sections, telling me the steps to import/export from each of those 15 or 50 software to any other. Some steps need several apps/steps and some steps are specific in settings needed. For a few I had to create export templates in bonsai or pandoc etc. But I can quickly interchange structured tree data between any of the 15 or 50 by jumping to the section within that huge reference document I created. I don't think anyone on earth has done anything similar. So I got to know a little about tree i/o between apps. OPML is often, but not always, the backbone. BUT:

- There are different OPML versions.

- Then there are numerous proprietary OPML versions by many devs.

- What to do? For maximum interchangeable data success amongst apps? Because often apps do not recognize each other OPML. Hence my huge reference document.

- My recommendation for devs is to:
- Use OPML Version 1, NOT Version 2
- Only use the two minimum tags, for node title/name and node text data.
- Tree Structure (nodes, sub node levels)? OPML is basically a simple cut down version of html. Levels are basically nested node tags inside each other. Nothing to do, no tags, just nesting.

However most devs use OPML version 2 and/or use other OPML properties tags when they just need to use the node title and node text tag. And as if not enough, some make their own propriety version and call it OPML. Not all, but still enough.

+ HOSTAGE?

- There's truth to that. Some devs ignore calls for basic OPML version import and/or export to keep users in bondage. This is as stupid as over pricing. Imagine if MS Word or Photoshop did not have multiple import export formats. For example for years people asked the Cherrytree dev to enable OPML export. It's not hard, it's easier than other propriety formats already there, but he never did. Many left. Then Notecase Pro added Cherryteee import, so you could export it again as OPML or other formats. Now that is clever, and genuine and open spirited which leads to success. UVOutline, similar to this new offering, always refused OPML export despite many calls, till he made it abandonware. It's rare, but there is something to this OPML denial to users in a few cases. Self harming, but occurs.

+ Visual Outliner becoming a success:

- NEEDS DUAL PANE, not just single. So each node can have INLINE DATA i.e. Node text data.

- You might say this is a single pane outliner. There is no contradiction. It can boot up as it does now as a single pane outliner. HOWEVER you should be able to change that in settings to boot as a dual pane outliner. MS Word, Photoshop and most other serious outliner software have many options most do not use. They are not visible but are there for those that need it. This can remain a single pane, but if some need it which in time will be over half the users, it should be there in settings to enable dual pane to see/edit node text data.

- The second pane, if enabled, would show in the middle between the left tree pane and the bucket list on the right.

- Multi Media data formats, images or tables etc, can be added gradually in time to the middle pane node inline data. Like Rightnote.

+ Verdict:

- Then as a dual pane which is easy to do considering the work he's already done, it would easily be worth this price, even if he just added a basic middle pane for node text data. He'd like it himself if he tried it.

- He has an adequate if not good taste in UI/UX design, so I wish him all the best.

washere: now that's a quality post. Thanks for doing all that legwork and offering well-considered opinions and advice.

Thanks tightbeam, if John Lennon was alive & into outlining his songs & ideas with apps, he may say regarding a dream global interchangeable tree data-format across apps:

Imagine...

washere wrote:

+ PRICE:
+ OPML

- It's the best Tree Outliner Structure file format there is. I've
tested nearly a thousand software in the last three years.

- My recommendation for devs is to:
- Use OPML Version 1, NOT Version 2
- Only use the two minimum tags, for node title/name and node text data.
- Tree Structure (nodes, sub node levels)? OPML is basically a
simple cut down version of html. Levels are basically nested node tags
inside each other. Nothing to do, no tags, just nesting.

Thanks for your detailed submissions. I consider implementing OPML 1 in CrossLine as an import/export file format. There only seem to be small OPML example files available. Do you have a decently large file having the features you recommend and which you could give away?

Rochus wrote:

washere wrote:

......................

Thanks for your detailed submissions. I consider implementing OPML 1 in
CrossLine as an import/export file format. There only seem to be small
OPML example files available. Do you have a decently large file having
the features you recommend and which you could give away?

Hi Rochus,

Thanks. I find your works intriguing and innovative.

OPML V1, with only the main 2 tags and nested structure is very simple and anyone here can learn it in 2 minutes, never mind expert coders like you.

The file size does not matter as long as the nesting does not break scope like other html nesting tags (li, url etc etd).

For example a simple 2 node tree code is below here, 1st node has a sub-node and a sub-sub-node, the 2nd node in the tree has only root node but is mulit-line. The Code would be:

##################################################################

Sample











##################################################################

That's it. I have given info on this to several devs publicly or by email. One I can remember is linked below.

I showed how one can stick to a few rules (of course also less work too fortunately), plus use some apps to generate or check sample OPML code.

The main things to remember:

1) Just use the 2 OMPL tags
2) Nest node levels properly, don't break nesting
3) Avoid temptation to add further OMPL v1 & v2 tag options

These few rules not only make the work a lot easier and a lot less in volume, but they will also ensure this mini-me version of OPML v1 will be read by almost any app that pretends to import OPML.

In my experience because so many OPML versions/varieties are out there, in reality just under half OPML import/exports across apps are successful as a result.

https://github.com/zadam/trilium/issues/78

As I suspected, the forum software attempted to embed the OPML code in my last post, probably as Markdown or similar. So:

############################################
https://ibb.co/mcDP70

or

https://pastebin.com/Vm1sntKi
############################################

washere wrote:

Thank you very much for your explications.

The file size does not matter as long as the nesting does not break
scope like other html nesting tags (li, url etc etd).

It's not about the file size; but if I have externally validated data of reasonable size I can use it to develop and test my parser/importer and can be sure that I have seen and corrected most of the issues.

Question: as you write the carriage returns are preserved; but what about the whitespace left of "Next line..." and "Write on.."?

1) Just use the 2 OMPL tags text="BLAH BLAH BLAH">

If the outline item is either a title or a text, I can create an outline tag with either a title or a text attribute, right?

3) Avoid temptation to add further OMPL v1 & v2 tag options

Ok; of course text formatting and embedded images get lost, only plain text is exported.

be read by almost any app that pretends to import OPML.

By the way: have you noticed that CrossLine can import HTML files and translates the title structure to outline levels? Here is an example: http://software.rochus-keller.info/WarAndPeace.cldb.zip I downloaded and imported the HTML version of War and Peace from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2600/2600-h/2600-h.htm as recommended in http://www.organizingcreativity.com/2018/02/what-makes-a-good-outliner .

Correction:
The forum software definitely seem to swallow text with similarities to HTML tags. Here (hopefully) the missing text:

left_outline_tag title="Name of My 2nd Root Node" text="Can be: Scene TWO, at root level.
Next line: notice just a carriage return, no coding or tags needed unlike HTML etc
Write on............... Can not be a simpler format.">
right_outline_tag

Question: as you write the carriage returns are preserved; but what
about the whitespace left of "Next line..." and "Write on.."?

1) Just use the 2 OMPL tags left_outline_tag title="Whatever Node Name" text="BLAH BLAH BLAH"> right_outline_tag

If the outline item is either a title or a text, I can create an outline
tag with either a title or a text attribute, right?

Washere wrote:

- NEEDS DUAL PANE, not just single. So each node can have INLINE DATA i.e. Node text data.

It could benefit from a place for notes, but why necessarily a second pane. Why not something like what the defunct NoteMap used. (Clickable attached notes.) That is closer to true inline notes because numerous notes can be open at the same time.

A second pane would diminish Visual Outliner's ability to distinguish itself from the plethora of two-pane outline organizers.

Rochus wrote:

washere wrote:

Thank you very much for your explications.

>The file size does not matter as long as the nesting does not break
>scope like other html nesting tags (li, url etc etd).

It's not about the file size; but if I have externally validated data of
reasonable size I can use it to develop and test my parser/importer and
can be sure that I have seen and corrected most of the issues.

>
>

Question: as you write the carriage returns are preserved; but what
about the whitespace left of "Next line..." and "Write on.."?

>1) Just use the 2 OMPL tags >text="BLAH BLAH BLAH">

If the outline item is either a title or a text, I can create an outline
tag with either a title or a text attribute, right?

>3) Avoid temptation to add further OMPL v1 & v2 tag options

Ok; of course text formatting and embedded images get lost, only plain
text is exported.

>be read by almost any app that pretends to import OPML.

By the way: have you noticed that CrossLine can import HTML files and
translates the title structure to outline levels? Here is an example:
http://software.rochus-keller.info/WarAndPeace.cldb.zip I downloaded
and imported the HTML version of War and Peace from
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2600/2600-h/2600-h.htm as recommended in
http://www.organizingcreativity.com/2018/02/what-makes-a-good-outliner .

* Some apps will trim white spaces at start or end of line on import.

* I would say might be best not to leave title blank, text att being blank should be ok for most if not all app imports.

* Same with data format, definitely needs title, I would include text too even if followed by a blank data holder ="" just in case some apps need it for import

* I have bookmarked CrossLine to play with later on. Interesting ideas on html outlining.
I always thought html outliner tags, ul ol li dl, could be packaged together in some nice app as a universal outlining format, with nice code folding. But most devs rather invent their own formats. Would be great if a minimum number of tags could be chosen to do that, sort of universal outlining gateway.

Stephen Diamond wrote:

Washere wrote:

> - NEEDS DUAL PANE, not just single. So each node can have INLINE DATA
i.e. Node text data.

It could benefit from a place for notes, but why necessarily a second
pane. Why not something like what the defunct NoteMap used. (Clickable
attached notes.) That is closer to true inline notes because numerous
notes can be open at the same time.

A second pane would diminish Visual Outliner's ability to distinguish
itself from the plethora of two-pane outline organizers.

Inline data as a single pane might be good for you but not for others. Outliner app on android does that.

vs. Halna also onAndroid which gives the option as dual pane (Change Style). The burger menu style of geological strata of inline layers compresses all into a jumble. And if expanding all needs a 6 foot tall screen in many cases.

Also the eye has to work hard and trace and make mental dual panes..

It is not easy to see at a glance the structural form and links as it is in dual pane.

But that is just personal preferences, however the plethora as you might say shows which is more natural and ergonomic on the eye and brain.
The dev asked for feedback. I gave mine. You criticize mine and give yours. I think yours is much worse as the masses have shown and expanded on mine only in response to your question.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Which brings us to the main elephant in the room:

That is why I said the dual pane could be an extra option.

That it could still load as a single paner as it is now.

That those who need it could enable dual pane only if they chose so.

etc etc.

Why did I emphasize so much about keeping it as a single pane default launch as is now?

Despite adding dual pane option for those idiots like me who want it hidden out of sight of those who hate it so much vehemently?

Because I knew despite all that emphasis someone would say why not a single paner?

Well it would still be a default single pane. Wouldn't it? I said enough times.

Which brings us to a much more interesting question. Why despite me saying so many times it should stay a single pane on launch and default, why would you say the option for dual pane should not even be buried away somewhere in the options?

How does it hurt you if the option for dual pane is somewhere out of your face, but still gets into your mind?

It is like the heterosexual fundamentalists who seek out gays and question what they do in their privacy and bedrooms and try to "correct and heal" them.

The answer as with most touching issues in my opinion is: human emotions.

It seems to me for some reason the single pane zeal comes from the emotional history of single pane users who lost the few good options on Windows which became abandonware. They saw how on the mac this was not the case and to make things worse, dual paners flourished everywhere.

One can see this not on this forum archives but elsewhere too.

This dev is trying to cash in on this nostalgic longing, like remembering fave foods mom used to make. He will get a good crop, at first, but to keep going he would need more than a few who reminisce to make his efforts worth his while.

As for a logical rational critical reasoning to this emotional want which desires to deny others whatever is hidden in options even if it fully gets what it longs for? I am not going to even try. But observing it is quite fascinating.

I promise not to buy this even if he adds the dual pane option buried somewhere deep in settings, well segregated from those righteous who might be offended if they knew it was literally there. I hope this makes the single-pane "base" happy and not lynch me or shove their pitchforks up my ... . :)

washere wrote:

How does it hurt you if the option for dual pane is somewhere out of
your face, but still gets into your mind?

It is like the heterosexual fundamentalists who seek out gays and
question what they do in their privacy and bedrooms and try to "correct
and heal" them.

WHAT?

Franz Grieser>>.....

Nosy!

washere wrote:

Thanks for your responses; I give it a try and come back when I have results.

Would be
great if a minimum number of tags could be chosen to do that, sort of
universal outlining gateway.

That's how it is done e.g. in the OMG ReqIF format; inline text formating is officially supported by a subset of XHTML; I already support the format in my DoorScope application and also intend to implement it in CrossLine (so people can import ReqIF specification documents into CrossLine too). OPML has some similarities to ReqIF but much less expressiveness.

Rochus wrote:

washere wrote:

Thanks for your responses; I give it a try and come back when I have
results.

>Would be
>great if a minimum number of tags could be chosen to do that, sort of
>universal outlining gateway.

That's how it is done e.g. in the OMG ReqIF format; inline text
formating is officially supported by a subset of XHTML; I already
support the format in my DoorScope application and also intend to
implement it in CrossLine (so people can import ReqIF specification
documents into CrossLine too). OPML has some similarities to ReqIF but
much less expressiveness.

Sounds good. If you document your datatype progress and findings on a blog, other devs might benefit. Maybe in time a consortium of devs can hook up and form a new minimal universal protocol based on it and incorporate the format as an import/export option in their apps. Good luck.

however the plethora as you might say shows which is more natural and ergonomic on the eye and brain.

Washere,

My understanding is that two-pane outliners predominate because Windows has built-in resources for the second pane, but not for inline text.

Stephen Diamond wrote:

however the plethora as you might say shows which is more natural and
ergonomic on the eye and brain.

Washere,

My understanding is that two-pane outliners predominate because Windows
has built-in resources for the second pane, but not for inline text.

Well Stephen I guess might be, and other things. I remember doing interface stuff and SGML projects for Sony then for Apple Newton etc on my first job. Back then the big dual pane thing was windows help files. Then a couple of guys made the tab based organizer based on filofax and sold the company to Lotus. We had dual pane since DOS boxes wares and then online BBS before HTML I guess. Who knows how far back it goes.

You can check 4 approaches on the following 2 android apps. OK lets break this down formally:

1) inline data in a Single Pane:
The problem here is if you got chunky data, more than one or a few paragraphs, expanding a few or even just one node takes up all screen acreage and you are a Zero pane outliner and just a text editor.
Conclusion: Good for short inline data: tagline/abstract/short blurb, not big data for nodes, kills it.
In fact a single pane purist should despise this as it easily kills the outliner.

2) Dual Pane Vertical:
Well we know this,it has taken over the world selling like hot cakes or you might call a rash or invasive weed
Conclusion: Good for big node data, hence book/report writers, Scrivener or Rightnote etc etc as examples

3) Dual Pane Horizontal:
Same as above except the data panel in underneath, the left tree becomes half the vertical size
Same thing as 2 but less overview of tree as halves in height

4) Single-Dual Pane or 1.5 Pane Hybrid:
This is like a mule or bastardized version of the two. Basically it is a single pane. But when you single/double click the node or however it is launched, the data is shown by:
- Replacing the screen into a text editor showing the node data or
- A windows pops up showing node data
- Launches the dual pane to show data
- Hover popup box
- etc

It is not a single pane, nor a dual pane really.

The 1st can be seen on the app outliner linked below as well as other software.

2 & 3 & 4 can be seen in Halna. To switch between the looks, click on "Change Style" in menu or icon at bottom (rotate sets).

Free ver links below. I suggest getting both Pro versions for about 5 bucks. Halna I have changed to look dark (dark grey text/lines etc on black background), does OPML etc and is by a Japanese dev, best outliner app on android by far. The dual pane border can easily move.

Both apps have tutorial file as example, can import your tree opml or bonsai etc file types too (Action in menu gives import etc submenu):
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=at.ff.outliner

Change to 3 modes by "Change Style". Also in settings toggle "Single Mode/Sequene Mode" which makes the 2nd pane not just show node data for 1 node but can shows data for all nodes and highlights the node on the left as you scroll down/up & vice versa if moving up/down nodes in 1st pane. I wish other tree apps did this, very useful:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.blogspot.halnablue.HalnaOutlinerLite

______________________________________________
Conclusion? What style from above 4 one chooses depends on:
- Personal taste +
- How one's eye works and roams best scanning data +
- Type of use: short bullet point type data or big chunks of text as in book writing with refs/notes etc.

So depends on the individual perfs and her needs depending on the project, I guess, no definitive answer.