DokuWiki has been mentioned a few times on this forum.

Those of you that have used it, would you think the following would work conveniently enough (as a reading notes database and as a workflow)?

I'm thinking of setting up DokuWiki as a self-hosted wiki on A2Hosting (subscription-based).

I'd like to be able to use it as a private, personal wiki for my reading notes.

I'd want to be able to create my notes via a web interface, add categories, links to PDF files, insert the occasional image (normally just a screenshot of a diagram), and of course create links between them.

The other use would be to browse the reading notes, annotate them further, and search them.

I may also want to import my existing reading notes database from ConnectedText.

My main motivation for the above is to free myself from my current setup which lockes me into a Windows laptop. My reading notes reside in CT, my references are in EndNote, with links from both CT and EndNote to PDFs of articles and books on the harddrive.

This setup often limits me, as my Windows laptop is heavy and so it's not always with me, and I prefer to use my Chromebooks whenever I can.

As I often do my reading on a Chromebook these days, I'd prefer to be able to directly type my reading notes into an online wiki (open in a Chrome tab), if the interface makes that easy enough.

Why DokuWiki? I compared several and that one appeals to me, as it looks the closest to CT, both in terms of being plain text-based and the syntax, and it sounds like it has a good search facility.

I still love CT, but not being able to have it with me constantly is frustrating, so I'd want to replicate it online (and the associated toolchain, i.e. my references database and my PDF library--finding online solutions for those is less problematic, as I could use Paperpile, and Google Drive).

I have DocuWiki installed on my NAS for use on my local network. I believe it would be useful for your note taking purposes. The interface is simple and effective, with all the basic tools you would need for notes, wiki linking, image uploading and inserting, etc. I have never exported from ConnectedText for import to other wikis, so I cannot comment on that piece.

Dokuwiki is the reason why i created Start & Doc, I use it for years, It's the simplest wiki i found, the easiest at use and your pages are stored in plain text (no database and a good way to reuse them in other apps). Wiki are in my opinion the best way to store many type of notes, you can includes links (internal or external), table, charts, annotation and references, also there is a lot of plugin or addon for everything and anything (PDF export, backup, latex, ...). To this, there is also versionning and teamwork.

The bad part is that you need to configure a local server for it, as a developer it's not a problem for me but for most people it's a tricky thing, and an other point is Dokuwiki does not use standard markdown but its own syntax.

If you search for a free hosting (without ads or premium features, really completely free), there is https://frama.site/ enjoy.

We've been moving our extranet over to DokuWiki since the demise of Kerio Workspace.

It's a good wiki system - relatively simple to set up, very fast, and with an outstanding search function (highlights everything instantly - you all know how happy this makes me!).

I think it's an excellent idea for a personal server. Otherwise I'd recommend one of the TiddlyWiki server-based variants, but I personally have found it quite difficult to make them 100% private.

Cheers,
Bill

Frama looks pretty cool - thanks for the reference, Eric.

I'll have to check it out, especially since I've now moved to France (Brexit? Don't talk to me about Brexit!)

Eric wrote:

The bad part is that you need to configure a local server for it, as a
developer it's not a problem for me but for most people it's a tricky
thing, and an other point is Dokuwiki does not use standard markdown but
its own syntax.

I'm not very technical, so this is why I'm thinking of going with A2 Hosting. It sounds like the software is more or less pre-installed there, and they keep it updated for you, and there seem to be all kinds of admin tools to make it easier to manage.

https://www.a2hosting.com/blog/self-hosted-wiki/

My other considerations are that I'd like this to be a long-term solution (hopefully for many years), so I want a hosting service that is experienced and is likely to stay in business for a while, and performs at the highest level (in terms of speed and quality of service).

The syntax is no problem, as it's quite similar to the one in ConnectedText.

MadaboutDana wrote:

I think it's an excellent idea for a personal server. Otherwise I'd
recommend one of the TiddlyWiki server-based variants, but I personally
have found it quite difficult to make them 100% private.

Thanks fo the suggestion. I have considered various TiddlyWiki options, but once I drilled down, I kept running into various problems each time, which then guided me back to DokuWiki.

Just to confirm what has been said already, Dokuwiki is an excellent alternative to ConnectedText. I made the move about two years ago to a local instance on my NAS for private documents and notes. However, I also have a web-based instance for all of my course notes (I'm a professor), student project details, presentation supplements, PDFs, and links to YouTube/Vimeo videos. I'm currently exploring the use of iframe embeds for H5P and Articulate interactive content. I'd love to get some self-study quizzes and activities implemented for students. One of the key features I was looking for was a multi-platform (i.e., Web-based) solution, as I'm both a Windows and Linux user. I can also use my Android tablet and smartphone to access everything anytime/anywhere.
With respect to shortcomings, my wishlist is for improved markdown-support. I still use markdown-based tools for quick note-taking and for updating websites, and Dokuwiki isn't great in this area (although there are some plugins). I also use other tools (e.g., Diigo) to annotate websites and PDFs, and to bookmark and tag sites. I don't use "categories" per se in Dokuwiki, but I organize content into namespaces and use extensive intra-linking. (Note-to-self: Explore the use of categories and tag clouds!)
Hope that helps,
Glen

Hi Glen and everyone,

Many thanks for the suggestions so far.

Glen Coulthard wrote:

I don't
use "categories" per se in Dokuwiki, but I organize content into
namespaces and use extensive intra-linking. (Note-to-self: Explore the
use of categories and tag clouds!)

I haven't got my head around it completely, but I thought "namespaces" were the DokuWiki alternative to a CT "category"?

Not quite sure how "tags" are different, but this is what I found when I searched for it:

https://www.dokuwiki.org/plugin:tag

There isn't really a ConnectedText equivalent to namespaces in DokuWiki. Tags are basically the same thing as ConnectedText's categories. Namespaces are closer to folders (a page can only be in one namespace) or keeping multiple ConnectedText files. For example, you can have "personal" and "work" namespaces, the same way you might maintain two ConnectedText files.

There's also a plugin for DokuWiki called SubjectIndex that's more oriented towards creating detailed indexes, like the type you'd find in a long book or encyclopedia. It can coexist with tags. Unfortunately it looks like the developer no longer wants to maintain it, which is a shame, because he used to be one of the more prolific DokuWiki developers.

-- Chris

Dr Andus wrote:

Hi Glen and everyone,

Many thanks for the suggestions so far.

Glen Coulthard wrote:
>I don't
>use "categories" per se in Dokuwiki, but I organize content into
>namespaces and use extensive intra-linking. (Note-to-self: Explore the
>use of categories and tag clouds!)

I haven't got my head around it completely, but I thought "namespaces"
were the DokuWiki alternative to a CT "category"?

Not quite sure how "tags" are different, but this is what I found when I
searched for it:

https://www.dokuwiki.org/plugin:tag

Thanks for stepping in Chris. Yes, I use separate namespaces for each course, which also allows me to assign user rights (ACL) based on their course enrollment. I haven't used the Tag plugin or Cloud/TagCloud plugins though, so not sure how these might be of benefit.
-- Glen

Chris and Glen,

Thanks for the clarification.

Namespaces sound interesting. I like the fact that they can be hierarchically organised.

I use Dokuwiki on my desktop computer to keep a story bible. It works great for that, and there's a zillion extensions to make it easy to customize. I've used it on and off for years, long before I discovered Markdown, so I don't chafe at its markup.

My only beef with it is that it seems difficult to lock it down to its own satisfaction… so I haven't really considered opening a router port to make it accessible outside the LAN (or set it up on a virtual server on AWS, which seems like overkill IMO). If the remote hosting site has it set up already, that sounds like the way to go.

Paul Korm wrote:
I have DocuWiki installed on my NAS for use on my local network.

Paul,

Is this set up to where you can access the wiki outside your home? If so, is it fairly responsive?

I have a Synology NAS that I use just for in-network backup and media serving, but I want to experiment with it as an application server.

I could, but, no, I haven't opened the NAS up to the Internet. The NAS is private data I don't need to access remotely. If I did want to expose DocuWiki I would install it on one of the domains I own and host at Dreamhost. I don't want to be in the self-hosting business when someone else can worry about the certificates, security, backup, operating system updates and patches, and so on.

nathanb wrote:

>Paul Korm wrote:
>I have DocuWiki installed on my NAS for use on my local network.
Paul,
Is this set up to where you can access the wiki outside your home? If
so, is it fairly responsive?
I have a Synology NAS that I use just for in-network backup and media
serving, but I want to experiment with it as an application server.

Paul Korm wrote:
I could, but, no, I haven't opened the NAS up to the Internet. The NAS
is private data I don't need to access remotely. If I did want to
expose DocuWiki I would install it on one of the domains I own and host
at Dreamhost. I don't want to be in the self-hosting business when
someone else can worry about the certificates, security, backup,
operating system updates and patches, and so on.

This is a good point and one I struggle with. Torn between wanting to 'control my own data' and having to learn security (and keep continuously up-to-date on it). Having it 'professionally' hosted is better for both security and reliability. Maybe this is one of those 80/20 things where very little of my data is 'top secret' and I don't care if it falls into the wrong hands. Therefore I should keep the sensitive info (~20% of files) on my internal system and keep the rest conveniently accessible on most screens in and out of the house.

A few months ago I also reached a point where DokuWiki seemed like the way to go for a personal wiki, so I spent some time trying to set it up to my satisfaction. (I used Bitnami, which for my purposes worked great.) Unfortunately, even with the various plugins available, I was unsuccessful in trying to fully implement some of the functionality I really like in ConnectedText (and to some extent WikidPad and Voodoopad), such as automatic linking, autocompletion of link names, listing of backlinks, and wiki-wide changing of link-name instances. Some of these features are available to certain degrees with plugins, but I found the experience frustrating in terms of what I was looking for, and as has been noted, plugins are often dropped by developers. True, DokuWiki probably is the best cross-platform solution for my needs as well, but for now I am holding out until some more features are added or something better comes along.

Thanks Lucas, that is helpful. Some of your specific issues are ones that are important to me. I'm looking for an agile personal wiki. If it's a lot of work to encode the notes with links and metadata then I'll end up not doing it consistently, therefore defeating the purpose.

Lucas wrote:

A few months ago I also reached a point where DokuWiki seemed like the
way to go for a personal wiki, so I spent some time trying to set it up
to my satisfaction. (I used Bitnami, which for my purposes worked
great.) Unfortunately, even with the various plugins available, I was
unsuccessful in trying to fully implement some of the functionality I
really like in ConnectedText (and to some extent WikidPad and
Voodoopad), such as automatic linking, autocompletion of link names,
listing of backlinks, and wiki-wide changing of link-name instances.
Some of these features are available to certain degrees with plugins,
but I found the experience frustrating in terms of what I was looking
for, and as has been noted, plugins are often dropped by developers.
True, DokuWiki probably is the best cross-platform solution for my needs
as well, but for now I am holding out until some more features are added
or something better comes along.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Personally I don't have any expectations of being able to replicate or even approximate CT's functionality.

I also realise that I'd need to change the overall conceptual design of the database (to take advantage of the namespace functionality) and develop a new naming convention for the page names (as currently my CT topic names have a date and time stamp of when the note was taken, then author name and publication year, followed by a long descriptive title).

It sounds like the way forward in Dokuwiki is to keep things simple, so that there are not too many complex issues one needs to deal with later (such as mass renaming of pages or links).

It would still be nice if I could import somehow my current CT content. But I imagine that I'd need to edit the CT content to change page names, category syntax etc. and then I'd need to manually re-establish any existing links between them.

Given your concerns, if you haven't tried it, you should give Notion.so a shot as an alternative to Dokuwiki. It has a similar basic concept (plain text files for pages, ability to download the whole shebang as a series of folders and text files and unmodified attachments), but they do the hosting and it's like a batteries included Dokuwiki, with a ton of built in functionality included. It also has an innovative sub-pages concept that is basically just like nested Dokuwiki namespaces. Also there are Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android apps.

--Chris

nathanb wrote:

Thanks Lucas, that is helpful. Some of your specific issues are ones
that are important to me. I'm looking for an agile personal wiki. If
it's a lot of work to encode the notes with links and metadata then I'll
end up not doing it consistently, therefore defeating the purpose.

Chris Thompson wrote:
Given your concerns, if you haven't tried it, you should give Notion.so
a shot as an alternative to Dokuwiki.

Thank you for mentioning this. I've recently discovered notion and have been poking around with it. It's part of a new breed of cloud-based-apps that seem to be trying to replace the classic file/document/spreadsheet concept with hybrid databases that can act like wiki's, web sites, share documents, to-do lists etc by mixing all those elements within pages. Others of this ilk (I think) would be quip, etherpad, dropbox paper, and nuclino. I think quip and nuclino look and act most like notion. Of course they all pretend to be revolutionary, and I guess they sort of are, but it's kind of funny to see how similar they appear and behave. I think of airtable as part of this new generation, since they are all free-form blank slates powered by an accessible database. Airtable obviously isn't built to wiki but is a fantastic database. I recently built a team project-management portal with airtable and was impressed at how easy it was to get even the most change-resistant coworkers to enjoy keeping it up to date and using it as our dashboard.

Notion is my favorite candidate of these 'next gen' cloud wiki/database things but I have some reservations. Unless I'm using it wrong, it's only a wiki in the sense that you can link TO all its elements from within any element. Like people say OneNote can be a personal wiki because you can link TO any particular paragraph. I think it is important to have an incoming-links, what-links-to-here, two-way link, etc for REAL knowledge management wikis. I really love how easy it is to shape a page with a visual grid layout (like OneNote) in notion, like you can make your own little kanban/trello boards and each item in a list/box can be just text or a whole page. But embedding links within elements TO other elements seems to the end of the depth. As far as I can tell, the elements themselves are lacking in a lot of metadata and associating them within other elements only seems to be useful within that particular page.

Hmmm, maybe I'm mistaken. Just played with my example of a 'dumb' kanban list, where you might have boxes for to-do, next, doing, done. If you move one task via drag and drop (which notion handles really well), there is no metadata within the task item that indicates the change in status or even lists the status at all since that relationship is specific to what that page is showing. Because I'd like the task to be also nested under a project element and be able to see what the status of all the tasks are per project, per day, whatever. However, notion just introduced airtable-like tables...so maybe I CAN get it to treat the various element arrangements as metadata.

Still, no 'what links to here'. ;-) A true CRIMPer is NEVER satisfied right?

You can link to sections in Notion (see here: https://www.notion.so/Link-directly-to-a-section-on-the-page-1bdf0ef9b8a04e9392cbce77184ec400 ) I don't think you can link to individual paragraphs within a section yet, but IIRC you can't do that in DokuWiki either. (For section links to be permanent/stable, you also need a plugin in DokuWiki.)

I'm not sure how often people other than very advanced/academic users want paragraph links, so I can understand why it's probably a lower priority feature. Tinderbox dropped this feature for three versions (it's back now, and more powerful) and there wasn't a huge outcry.

Agreed on the backlinks. That needs to be there, and DokuWiki does have that by default. It's a little bit less necessary in Notion because there is always a hierarchy where you could in theory find things, whereas a pure wiki can easily end up as a soup of orphan pages, but I'm sure this is on their radar. That team is very productive -- they implemented a huge chunk of the Airtable feature set in what was a pretty minor update by their standards.

--Chris

nathanb wrote:

Thank you for mentioning this. I've recently discovered notion and have
been poking around with it. It's part of a new breed of
cloud-based-apps that seem to be trying to replace the classic
file/document/spreadsheet concept with hybrid databases that can act
like wiki's, web sites, share documents, to-do lists etc by mixing all
those elements within pages. Others of this ilk (I think) would be
quip, etherpad, dropbox paper, and nuclino. I think quip and nuclino
look and act most like notion. Of course they all pretend to be
revolutionary, and I guess they sort of are, but it's kind of funny to
see how similar they appear and behave. I think of airtable as part of
this new generation, since they are all free-form blank slates powered
by an accessible database. Airtable obviously isn't built to wiki but
is a fantastic database. I recently built a team project-management
portal with airtable and was impressed at how easy it was to get even
the most change-resistant coworkers to enjoy keeping it up to date and
using it as our dashboard.

Notion is my favorite candidate of these 'next gen' cloud wiki/database
things but I have some reservations. Unless I'm using it wrong, it's
only a wiki in the sense that you can link TO all its elements from
within any element. Like people say OneNote can be a personal wiki
because you can link TO any particular paragraph. I think it is
important to have an incoming-links, what-links-to-here, two-way link,
etc for REAL knowledge management wikis. I really love how easy it is
to shape a page with a visual grid layout (like OneNote) in notion, like
you can make your own little kanban/trello boards and each item in a
list/box can be just text or a whole page. But embedding links within
elements TO other elements seems to the end of the depth. As far as I
can tell, the elements themselves are lacking in a lot of metadata and
associating them within other elements only seems to be useful within
that particular page.

Hmmm, maybe I'm mistaken. Just played with my example of a 'dumb'
kanban list, where you might have boxes for to-do, next, doing, done.
If you move one task via drag and drop (which notion handles really
well), there is no metadata within the task item that indicates the
change in status or even lists the status at all since that relationship
is specific to what that page is showing. Because I'd like the task to
be also nested under a project element and be able to see what the
status of all the tasks are per project, per day, whatever. However,
notion just introduced airtable-like tables...so maybe I CAN get it to
treat the various element arrangements as metadata.

Still, no 'what links to here'. ;-) A true CRIMPer is NEVER satisfied
right?

Chris Thompson wrote:

You can link to sections in Notion (see here:
https://www.notion.so/Link-directly-to-a-section-on-the-page-1bdf0ef9b8a04e9392cbce77184ec400
) I don't think you can link to individual paragraphs within a section
yet, but IIRC you can't do that in DokuWiki either. (For section links
to be permanent/stable, you also need a plugin in DokuWiki.)

I'm not sure how often people other than very advanced/academic users
want paragraph links, so I can understand why it's probably a lower
priority feature. Tinderbox dropped this feature for three versions
(it's back now, and more powerful) and there wasn't a huge outcry.

Agreed on the backlinks. That needs to be there, and DokuWiki does have
that by default. It's a little bit less necessary in Notion because
there is always a hierarchy where you could in theory find things,
whereas a pure wiki can easily end up as a soup of orphan pages, but I'm
sure this is on their radar.

Agreed that paragraph links aren't much more useful than links to the whole note/page. I was just playing around with it a bit more and it's more capable than I thought. I was able to 'clone' an item in a database, which in itself is a just a regular page (with all the rich editing and element-nesting capabilities of any 'normal' page) with the addition of the database metadata. I then copied it under a completely different tree and saw that it was a true clone (any change is reflected everywhere it appears), not a forked copy. One thing I was struggling with was trying to figure out where the real 'parent' of an element was after dropping it under trees and within other pages. Found a 'insert breadcrumb' command that shows the actual path with it's content. Pretty impressive that it can do what airtable does and let any single database entries make all sorts of cameo appearances outside of that table ANYWHERE within the rest of your content. They have a 'mention' command, which is just a in-text link to a page instead of embedding a page. You are right, they probably aren't far away from adding a 'mentions' element, which would be phenomenal.

Add to that a seemingly low 'data lock-in' risk, offline modes for all my screens (android finally!), and it's simple enough to share a 'workspace' with non-nerds so we can have decent project dashboarding for a change.... My wife and I have shared a set of OneNote notebooks for about 6 years now. At the very least, notion would be a major upgrade to that set of notes and lists.

Heck, I was just able to insert a partial screenshot (that I captured with the OneNote snipper) and plopped it inline in a notion page seemlessly...and that was the WEB version. The con list here is getting real short...