Gingko Desktop

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Posted by dan7000
Mar 28, 2018 at 09:40 PM

Actual Ginkgo user here.

Just chiming in in case Adrian is following the thread and looking for additional experiences with his site.

I love the web version. There is not much new under the sun these days wrt software - it’s incredibly unusual to see a new UI concept and this is one. In response to the comment saying we should not treat developers as always deserve praise:

1. Anybody developing and actually *releasing* software who does not have investment backing *does* deserve praise!! It’s damn hard and to do it without money coming in is worthy of praise if only for the effort. I spent over a decade in the commercial software industry and had teams of up to 20 people working for me at one point just get a new release out once a year. Anybody doing it by themselves at night after their day jobs and getting it released to the public is basically Rocky Balboa running up the steps of the Philadelphia Museum of Art in my book.

2. Still, I refrain from praising software on here that I don’t find useful. But I don’t tell them they suck, for the same reason I don’t boo local bands who I see in local bars even if they suck. They are putting themselves out there for next to no money and are puttiing in hard work to try to please ME. Booing them is totally classless whether in a club or on an online forum.

3. But in this case, Ginkgo is like a band I think is super innovative and has a really modern sound that I haven’t heard before. The web UI is very skillfully done but from what I hear the Desktop version is like the band decided to play a new song they haven’t quite learned yet. In that case, I’d give them a pass because I love their other music, and hope the new song is better when I see them next month.

4. The out of touch dad who comes over after the gig to give the lead singer some “business advice” is hilarious. There are so many other factors they have to consider before that even matters. I pay $2 a month for Ginkgo which is about what I’d pay for cover charges for my favorite local band. Yeah, somebody might steal their innovative sound - that’s a risk but there is literally no way to avoid it. Microsoft stole its way through the entire 1990s and nobody could ever call them on it. That’s another reason that anyone doing something unique is even more worthy of praise and gratitude—because they do it despite the fact they know some behemoth will probably steal their idea and drive them out of business—at best hopefully they’ll get a VP job out of it at the behemoth.

5. Finally, Stripe is 100% reputable and safe and if you want to buy things from small online web retailers you need to click “next” before determining their payment solution is only on their private domain. That’s just the way the web works these days - the payment processor is very often after you click “next.” If you just want to shop at Amazon that’s cool - enjoy the Kanye West stadium show. But if you want to go to the local bar you might have to pass by a sketchy bouncer before you hear the innovative sound. It makes 100% “business” sense to use whatever is the cheapest option both in direct costs and development costs, which is what it sounds like Adrian is doing.

Nevertheless and possibly contrary to everything above: some hopefully constructive criticism: $45 is too much. And single-license desktop software is dead. The subscription model is way more palatable for customers and way more profitable for developers; and something like Ginkgo on the desktop needs to sync with the web or very few will use it. I’m sure Adrian already knows all that. He’ll get the sync working and then charge $4.99 a month for the subscription regardless which clients are being used. At that point Ginkgo will be worth the higher cover charge :)

Posted by tightbeam
Mar 28, 2018 at 10:17 PM

> But I don’t tell them they suck, for the same reason I don’t boo local bands who I see in local bars even if they suck.

Has anyone done that? Point it out, and I’ll agree with you. Always giving praise, never giving criticism (or feedback, if you like), is the surest recipe for mediocrity.

If a developer is charging for software, his customers can most certainly offer feedback, and if it’s ignored, complain. Praise optional. Cash is the best praise.

I used to subscribe to online Gingko. Then I realized it lacks an essential feature for long-form writing: collapsible cards. Without collapsible cards, the software has minimal value to me, so I ended my subscription. If the desktop version had collapsible cards, I’d be the first in line to pay $45 for it, even without search and sync and the other things it lacks. This seems like pretty good feedback for the developer. I’d ever wager to say it would help him more than to say nothing and wait for the next song.

dan7000 wrote:
Actual Ginkgo user here.
> >Just chiming in in case Adrian is following the thread and looking for
>additional experiences with his site.
> >I love the web version. There is not much new under the sun these days
>wrt software - it’s incredibly unusual to see a new UI concept and this
>is one. In response to the comment saying we should not treat developers
>as always deserve praise:
> >1. Anybody developing and actually *releasing* software who does not
>have investment backing *does* deserve praise!! It’s damn hard and to do
>it without money coming in is worthy of praise if only for the effort. I
>spent over a decade in the commercial software industry and had teams of
>up to 20 people working for me at one point just get a new release out
>once a year. Anybody doing it by themselves at night after their day
>jobs and getting it released to the public is basically Rocky Balboa
>running up the steps of the Philadelphia Museum of Art in my book.
> >2. Still, I refrain from praising software on here that I don’t find
>useful. But I don’t tell them they suck, for the same reason I don’t boo
>local bands who I see in local bars even if they suck. They are putting
>themselves out there for next to no money and are puttiing in hard work
>to try to please ME. Booing them is totally classless whether in a club
>or on an online forum.
> >3. But in this case, Ginkgo is like a band I think is super innovative
>and has a really modern sound that I haven’t heard before. The web UI is
>very skillfully done but from what I hear the Desktop version is like
>the band decided to play a new song they haven’t quite learned yet. In
>that case, I’d give them a pass because I love their other music, and
>hope the new song is better when I see them next month.
> >4. The out of touch dad who comes over after the gig to give the lead
>singer some “business advice” is hilarious. There are so many other
>factors they have to consider before that even matters. I pay $2 a month
>for Ginkgo which is about what I’d pay for cover charges for my favorite
>local band. Yeah, somebody might steal their innovative sound - that’s a
>risk but there is literally no way to avoid it. Microsoft stole its way
>through the entire 1990s and nobody could ever call them on it. That’s
>another reason that anyone doing something unique is even more worthy of
>praise and gratitude—because they do it despite the fact they know
>some behemoth will probably steal their idea and drive them out of
>business—at best hopefully they’ll get a VP job out of it at the
>behemoth.
> >5. Finally, Stripe is 100% reputable and safe and if you want to buy
>things from small online web retailers you need to click “next” before
>determining their payment solution is only on their private domain.
>That’s just the way the web works these days - the payment processor is
>very often after you click “next.” If you just want to shop at Amazon
>that’s cool - enjoy the Kanye West stadium show. But if you want to go
>to the local bar you might have to pass by a sketchy bouncer before you
>hear the innovative sound. It makes 100% “business” sense to use
>whatever is the cheapest option both in direct costs and development
>costs, which is what it sounds like Adrian is doing.
> >Nevertheless and possibly contrary to everything above: some hopefully
>constructive criticism: $45 is too much. And single-license desktop
>software is dead. The subscription model is way more palatable for
>customers and way more profitable for developers; and something like
>Ginkgo on the desktop needs to sync with the web or very few will use
>it. I’m sure Adrian already knows all that. He’ll get the sync working
>and then charge $4.99 a month for the subscription regardless which
>clients are being used. At that point Ginkgo will be worth the higher
>cover charge :)

Posted by washere
Mar 28, 2018 at 10:46 PM

Well I would say someone who was over a decade in commercial software at some point tin the past and now is not, is probably is the definition of “out of touch dad”.

Not to mention making comparisons about following younger men in a band from bar to bar singing the “same old songs” and claiming to be a groupie. Which seems mighty weird to me, if not surreal. But each to his own fetishes and penchants.

Specific advice about payment options & forms, etc with links to facts & figures & surveys is different to general sycophantic praise blurb.

Plus detailed feedback about: software features settings etc again versus walls of text with nothing specific about the software, solutions, payments, facts figures etc.

However no more such detailed technical feedback will be forthcoming from me for sure.

Yet another confusion is about the competition.

Again this is not general waffle as we might read. It specifically was about:

* Novel new features, not general jive as generalized here, in a software in a niche area
* Secondly as brought up recently by me in another thread, this Miller Column design will not be unexplored for long
* It was not the initial invention of the wheel either as claimed
* Others are also entering the field as seen in that thread
* Once others join in with a proper outliner tree editor in this area, not chunky monkey white boxes in a web-app knock-off, that’s it, adieu
* There will be more Miller Column designs and it won’t matter who was moonlighting or which elderly gentleman fantasized how romantic the young singer was in a bar.
* As Ceausescu discovered on the balcony, the same praise singing sycophantic crowd will be the first rats leaving the sinking ship. This, history has shown again & again. Then it is too late to look back at technical specific advice that was ignored. Not to mention commercial ones, vs general blah blah blah as though Laurel giving advice to Hardy.

Finally, declaring most users want subscriptions based wares is yet another baseless generalization. As many have said here, they won’t use subs-ware apps & forums, etc. Each to his own.

Someone here said from the track-record looks like Gingko is going nowhere. Sums it up. If it is just an after-work side project, then I won’t be investing my long term time or data.

This post was fun to do.

Perfect pair:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnn-AVexPvQ

Posted by dan7000
Mar 28, 2018 at 11:22 PM

Have been posting here since 2006; it’s always been a very congenial, non-combatative forum where all contributors tried to share information about new software and support the developers of that software. In those 12 years, with the exception of one person who stopped posting here ages ago, I have never seen nasty personal attacks. But I guess the new generation is different. See ya.

Posted by tightbeam
Mar 28, 2018 at 11:44 PM

“...support the developers of that software…”

Well, that’s the crux of it. How best to support developers. Praise and acclaim; or feedback and criticism. A measured balance of both?

You’re right, there’s no place for personal attacks here, but your infamous “boy band” post, where you mischaracterized “feedback and criticism” for “boos and suck” was kinda asking for it, though.

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