Ecco like features for future SheetPlanner
Started by SheetPlanner
on 2/13/2018
SheetPlanner
2/13/2018 2:57 am
All,
While we are working hard to get SheetPlanner 1.0 out the door, I am curious to get input on features that people would like to see in a future version.
Specifically, what are the unique features Ecco users most liked.
One feature I am thinking about for a future SheetPlanner release is the ability to view columns and column choices as folders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgJLIYhSwmI&list=PL52B7716DE368314C&index=5
Any thoughts on this or on Ecco features you loved and would like to see us consider?
Thanks,
Peter
While we are working hard to get SheetPlanner 1.0 out the door, I am curious to get input on features that people would like to see in a future version.
Specifically, what are the unique features Ecco users most liked.
One feature I am thinking about for a future SheetPlanner release is the ability to view columns and column choices as folders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgJLIYhSwmI&list=PL52B7716DE368314C&index=5
Any thoughts on this or on Ecco features you loved and would like to see us consider?
Thanks,
Peter
rogbar
2/13/2018 6:52 am
Hi Peter,
I was deep into Ecco from version 1 to the end, and for years after, and I have to concede that the concept of Folders - as familiar as I was with them - is what confused most people for the longest time. The idea that a Column was a Folder, but a Folder could be - but didn't have to be - a Column, just drove a lot of people nuts. Seeing your screenshots, it's not altogether clear to me that you need Folders.
But the program was brilliantly and remarkably adaptable.
Ten years after it was discontinued, an article appeared in The Guardian by Andrew Brown, entitled "Bad ideas spread like wildfire, so why didn't a good one catch on?" Here is that article:
"There is a sadness when ideas are not rewarded. The inventor of the modern spreadsheet, Dan Bricklin, has to make money from lecturing nowadays, because he never patented his idea of laying out information on a grid, and his spreadsheet, Visicalc, was overtaken by later programs which ran on faster PCs, such as Lotus 123. Lotus 123, which ran on MS-Dos, was replaced by Microsoft Excel which ran on Microsoft Windows. But its makers, like Mitch Kapor, walked away with a huge pile of money, much of which he has devoted to good causes.
It is sadder still when good ideas are just forgotten. The spreadsheet transformed the world, I think, in ways we don't understand, and almost always for the worse. But you can lay out more information on a flexible grid than just numbers or words, and about 15 years ago a couple of ex-Apple Mac people decided to do just that. Bob Perez was a Harvard-trained lawyer who had worked as a programmer, and then as a salesman (the job title was "evangelist") for Apple in the 1980s; Pete Polash was a programmer who had sold an early Mac presentation graphics program to Aldus.
Between them, they came up with the idea of Ecco Pro, an organiser that would work like an outliner: you could put stuff in, then move the items around in a hierarchy. What sort of stuff? Anything you wanted. This was 1993, so there was a limited choice, but the program would take pictures, web pages and text: it came with a wonderful little tool, the "shooter", which let you clip things and send them to Ecco, or to other programs.
Ecco was not a tremendous outliner. The real originality lay in the area next to the outlined text, where there was normally a kind of spreadsheet grid. The rows were paragraphs of text - anything else in your outline - and the columns were, well anything you wanted them to be.
What we would now call "tags" were known in Ecco as "checkmark folders" - you just invented any category you wanted, and then decided how to apply it to the entries. Just as with any tagging system, you could apply lots of tags, and sort and filter the results.
I know you can do this with all sorts of other systems: it's just that the spreadsheet grid that Ecco used was more useful and intuitive than anything else I have ever found. The thing about tags, or thought categories generally, is that they come in contexts, and this is what a grid most effectively represents. If I am making a radio programme, for example, I will end up with 20 or 30 sound clips. Each of them will have some physical characteristics - who is talking, whether their voice is high or low, attractive or merely informative, what kind of accent they have. But they will also have their logical - or at least non-physical - characteristics: what is being talked about, what is being said. Only the spreadsheet layout lets me place the related tags on different axes, and then push everything around until it fits more or less right.
So what happened to the paragon of a program? The market killed it. First it was sold to a much larger company, Netmanage; presumably doing this made the original programmers a lot of money. Then Netmanage panicked when Microsoft Outlook came along as a "free" part of the Office suite, and killed development on the program. That was 10 years ago, and I still haven't found anything half as good for the organisation and storage of complex material. You can still get it, legitimately, and for free, for download (see compusol.org/ecco), and it still mostly works even under the most modern versions of Windows. But it has never been released to open source - the company wanted a rumoured $1m for the code - and the profound and brilliant insight that spreadsheet grids combined with outlining offers the best way to understand complex information has never been followed up.
This story doesn't really have any particular villains, except perhaps the people at Netmanage who drove the product into the ground. But it is puzzling that in an age when bad ideas spread round the world like wildfire, such a very good, unpatented idea should never have been picked up."
I was deep into Ecco from version 1 to the end, and for years after, and I have to concede that the concept of Folders - as familiar as I was with them - is what confused most people for the longest time. The idea that a Column was a Folder, but a Folder could be - but didn't have to be - a Column, just drove a lot of people nuts. Seeing your screenshots, it's not altogether clear to me that you need Folders.
But the program was brilliantly and remarkably adaptable.
Ten years after it was discontinued, an article appeared in The Guardian by Andrew Brown, entitled "Bad ideas spread like wildfire, so why didn't a good one catch on?" Here is that article:
"There is a sadness when ideas are not rewarded. The inventor of the modern spreadsheet, Dan Bricklin, has to make money from lecturing nowadays, because he never patented his idea of laying out information on a grid, and his spreadsheet, Visicalc, was overtaken by later programs which ran on faster PCs, such as Lotus 123. Lotus 123, which ran on MS-Dos, was replaced by Microsoft Excel which ran on Microsoft Windows. But its makers, like Mitch Kapor, walked away with a huge pile of money, much of which he has devoted to good causes.
It is sadder still when good ideas are just forgotten. The spreadsheet transformed the world, I think, in ways we don't understand, and almost always for the worse. But you can lay out more information on a flexible grid than just numbers or words, and about 15 years ago a couple of ex-Apple Mac people decided to do just that. Bob Perez was a Harvard-trained lawyer who had worked as a programmer, and then as a salesman (the job title was "evangelist") for Apple in the 1980s; Pete Polash was a programmer who had sold an early Mac presentation graphics program to Aldus.
Between them, they came up with the idea of Ecco Pro, an organiser that would work like an outliner: you could put stuff in, then move the items around in a hierarchy. What sort of stuff? Anything you wanted. This was 1993, so there was a limited choice, but the program would take pictures, web pages and text: it came with a wonderful little tool, the "shooter", which let you clip things and send them to Ecco, or to other programs.
Ecco was not a tremendous outliner. The real originality lay in the area next to the outlined text, where there was normally a kind of spreadsheet grid. The rows were paragraphs of text - anything else in your outline - and the columns were, well anything you wanted them to be.
What we would now call "tags" were known in Ecco as "checkmark folders" - you just invented any category you wanted, and then decided how to apply it to the entries. Just as with any tagging system, you could apply lots of tags, and sort and filter the results.
I know you can do this with all sorts of other systems: it's just that the spreadsheet grid that Ecco used was more useful and intuitive than anything else I have ever found. The thing about tags, or thought categories generally, is that they come in contexts, and this is what a grid most effectively represents. If I am making a radio programme, for example, I will end up with 20 or 30 sound clips. Each of them will have some physical characteristics - who is talking, whether their voice is high or low, attractive or merely informative, what kind of accent they have. But they will also have their logical - or at least non-physical - characteristics: what is being talked about, what is being said. Only the spreadsheet layout lets me place the related tags on different axes, and then push everything around until it fits more or less right.
So what happened to the paragon of a program? The market killed it. First it was sold to a much larger company, Netmanage; presumably doing this made the original programmers a lot of money. Then Netmanage panicked when Microsoft Outlook came along as a "free" part of the Office suite, and killed development on the program. That was 10 years ago, and I still haven't found anything half as good for the organisation and storage of complex material. You can still get it, legitimately, and for free, for download (see compusol.org/ecco), and it still mostly works even under the most modern versions of Windows. But it has never been released to open source - the company wanted a rumoured $1m for the code - and the profound and brilliant insight that spreadsheet grids combined with outlining offers the best way to understand complex information has never been followed up.
This story doesn't really have any particular villains, except perhaps the people at Netmanage who drove the product into the ground. But it is puzzling that in an age when bad ideas spread round the world like wildfire, such a very good, unpatented idea should never have been picked up."
Paul Korm
2/13/2018 11:08 am
Folders are tags, or tags are folders. (As also implied in the Guardian column @rogbar quoted). Not a bad idea. Tinderbox produces the same kind of view in its attribute browser. It's a popular feature. I see no reason why the feature would drive anyone nuts. Go fo it.
SheetPlanner wrote:
SheetPlanner wrote:
One feature I am thinking about for a future SheetPlanner release is the
ability to view columns and column choices as folders.
MadaboutDana
2/13/2018 1:46 pm
I think folders would be a great option, but not a vital option.
You would undoubtedly make many ageing Ecco Pro users happy, however!
Personally, I'm in favour of simplicity wherever possible. But simplicity can also involve having the ability to hide stuff away - and for this, folders can indeed be useful.
You would undoubtedly make many ageing Ecco Pro users happy, however!
Personally, I'm in favour of simplicity wherever possible. But simplicity can also involve having the ability to hide stuff away - and for this, folders can indeed be useful.
SheetPlanner
2/13/2018 3:26 pm
Rogbar,
Thanks for your response.
I really like the folders feature myself but it might take away from the simplicity for many users.
I may offer this as an in app upgrade down the road.
Peter
rogbar wrote:
Thanks for your response.
I really like the folders feature myself but it might take away from the simplicity for many users.
I may offer this as an in app upgrade down the road.
Peter
rogbar wrote:
Hi Peter,
I was deep into Ecco from version 1 to the end, and for years after, and
I have to concede that the concept of Folders - as familiar as I was
with them - is what confused most people for the longest time. The idea
that a Column was a Folder, but a Folder could be - but didn't have to
be - a Column, just drove a lot of people nuts. Seeing your screenshots,
it's not altogether clear to me that you need Folders.
But the program was brilliantly and remarkably adaptable.
Ten years after it was discontinued, an article appeared in The Guardian
by Andrew Brown, entitled "Bad ideas spread like wildfire, so why didn't
a good one catch on?" Here is that article:
"There is a sadness when ideas are not rewarded. The inventor of the
modern spreadsheet, Dan Bricklin, has to make money from lecturing
nowadays, because he never patented his idea of laying out information
on a grid, and his spreadsheet, Visicalc, was overtaken by later
programs which ran on faster PCs, such as Lotus 123. Lotus 123, which
ran on MS-Dos, was replaced by Microsoft Excel which ran on Microsoft
Windows. But its makers, like Mitch Kapor, walked away with a huge pile
of money, much of which he has devoted to good causes.
It is sadder still when good ideas are just forgotten. The spreadsheet
transformed the world, I think, in ways we don't understand, and almost
always for the worse. But you can lay out more information on a flexible
grid than just numbers or words, and about 15 years ago a couple of
ex-Apple Mac people decided to do just that. Bob Perez was a
Harvard-trained lawyer who had worked as a programmer, and then as a
salesman (the job title was "evangelist") for Apple in the 1980s; Pete
Polash was a programmer who had sold an early Mac presentation graphics
program to Aldus.
Between them, they came up with the idea of Ecco Pro, an organiser that
would work like an outliner: you could put stuff in, then move the items
around in a hierarchy. What sort of stuff? Anything you wanted. This was
1993, so there was a limited choice, but the program would take
pictures, web pages and text: it came with a wonderful little tool, the
"shooter", which let you clip things and send them to Ecco, or to other
programs.
Ecco was not a tremendous outliner. The real originality lay in the area
next to the outlined text, where there was normally a kind of
spreadsheet grid. The rows were paragraphs of text - anything else in
your outline - and the columns were, well anything you wanted them to
be.
What we would now call "tags" were known in Ecco as "checkmark folders"
- you just invented any category you wanted, and then decided how to
apply it to the entries. Just as with any tagging system, you could
apply lots of tags, and sort and filter the results.
I know you can do this with all sorts of other systems: it's just that
the spreadsheet grid that Ecco used was more useful and intuitive than
anything else I have ever found. The thing about tags, or thought
categories generally, is that they come in contexts, and this is what a
grid most effectively represents. If I am making a radio programme, for
example, I will end up with 20 or 30 sound clips. Each of them will have
some physical characteristics - who is talking, whether their voice is
high or low, attractive or merely informative, what kind of accent they
have. But they will also have their logical - or at least non-physical -
characteristics: what is being talked about, what is being said. Only
the spreadsheet layout lets me place the related tags on different axes,
and then push everything around until it fits more or less right.
So what happened to the paragon of a program? The market killed it.
First it was sold to a much larger company, Netmanage; presumably doing
this made the original programmers a lot of money. Then Netmanage
panicked when Microsoft Outlook came along as a "free" part of the
Office suite, and killed development on the program. That was 10 years
ago, and I still haven't found anything half as good for the
organisation and storage of complex material. You can still get it,
legitimately, and for free, for download (see compusol.org/ecco), and it
still mostly works even under the most modern versions of Windows. But
it has never been released to open source - the company wanted a
rumoured $1m for the code - and the profound and brilliant insight that
spreadsheet grids combined with outlining offers the best way to
understand complex information has never been followed up.
This story doesn't really have any particular villains, except perhaps
the people at Netmanage who drove the product into the ground. But it is
puzzling that in an age when bad ideas spread round the world like
wildfire, such a very good, unpatented idea should never have been
picked up."
Ken
2/13/2018 4:54 pm
A big thank you to rogbar for copying that article. It was a nice read, and a story that many of us loyal Ecco users found ourselves as minor characters. I also started using it in 1993 and finally had to abandon it a number of years ago when my office migrated to Win7 and would not allow me to keep the software on my machine.
While I would love a reincarnation of the original program since I was familiar with its workings and would need no learning curve, I realize that is not really an option in my life. While I am sure if I thought about it, I could probably come up with numerous things I loved about Ecco, I will try to highlight a few that come immediately to mind. First, I loved the easy integration between the calendar and any tabbed pages that were created. Most good programs offer some form of this today, but I really liked that Ecco had a calendar section and a task section with tasks that could carry forward. Again, not complex, but well laid out.
Another thing that I loved was the ability to add columns to tabs. This allowed me to look at data in a number of ways that worked for me. I know that Airtable (and probably many others) seems to do this somewhat well, but setting it up always required my brain to go into "database" mode and think how I can get the view to look the way I would like. My Life Organized also offers views and layout that work for me, but again, Ecco made it somewhat simple once you learned their "logic".
While Ecco did not really have tags in the current sense, I do appreciate a program that offers good control and use of tags. I think the biggest failure in using tags is Asana. They took a very powerful feature and totally screwed it up by not allowing a tags section on the left hand column where folders/projects normally reside to allow quick filtering. big mistake in my book. If I cannot see my tags, how am I supposed to be able to use them?
I know that PPL has poured his heart and soul into creating the modern version of Ecco with IQ, and I am not sure that a second Ecco "clone" would be all that helpful. What I might encourage is finding a copy of Ecco and using it for a bit to try and understand first hand why it was loved by many. Programs like Airtable, IQ, Hyperplan and MLO, to name just a few, give me hope more than programs like Asana. There seem to be a group of developers who understand what programs like Ecco offered, and then their are program and companies, like Asana and Trello, that are somewhat creative in their efforts, but seem to have a different focus (or lack of appreciation for past efforts). New may be good, but old is not always bad or obsolete, and the wheel does not always need to be reinvented.
I wish you luck,
--Ken
While I would love a reincarnation of the original program since I was familiar with its workings and would need no learning curve, I realize that is not really an option in my life. While I am sure if I thought about it, I could probably come up with numerous things I loved about Ecco, I will try to highlight a few that come immediately to mind. First, I loved the easy integration between the calendar and any tabbed pages that were created. Most good programs offer some form of this today, but I really liked that Ecco had a calendar section and a task section with tasks that could carry forward. Again, not complex, but well laid out.
Another thing that I loved was the ability to add columns to tabs. This allowed me to look at data in a number of ways that worked for me. I know that Airtable (and probably many others) seems to do this somewhat well, but setting it up always required my brain to go into "database" mode and think how I can get the view to look the way I would like. My Life Organized also offers views and layout that work for me, but again, Ecco made it somewhat simple once you learned their "logic".
While Ecco did not really have tags in the current sense, I do appreciate a program that offers good control and use of tags. I think the biggest failure in using tags is Asana. They took a very powerful feature and totally screwed it up by not allowing a tags section on the left hand column where folders/projects normally reside to allow quick filtering. big mistake in my book. If I cannot see my tags, how am I supposed to be able to use them?
I know that PPL has poured his heart and soul into creating the modern version of Ecco with IQ, and I am not sure that a second Ecco "clone" would be all that helpful. What I might encourage is finding a copy of Ecco and using it for a bit to try and understand first hand why it was loved by many. Programs like Airtable, IQ, Hyperplan and MLO, to name just a few, give me hope more than programs like Asana. There seem to be a group of developers who understand what programs like Ecco offered, and then their are program and companies, like Asana and Trello, that are somewhat creative in their efforts, but seem to have a different focus (or lack of appreciation for past efforts). New may be good, but old is not always bad or obsolete, and the wheel does not always need to be reinvented.
I wish you luck,
--Ken
Jon Polish
2/13/2018 6:00 pm
Agreed, and I am a huge Ecco fan. But for me InfoQube presents freedom and capability now lacking in Ecco. While SheetPlanner intrigues me, I will not be able to utilize it because it is Apple only.
Jon
Ken wrote:
Jon
Ken wrote:
New may be good, but
old is not always bad or obsolete, and the wheel does not always need to
be reinvented.
I wish you luck,
--Ken
rogbar
2/13/2018 7:36 pm
Hi Peter,
To answer your original question, here's an incomplete list:
1) the outliner be rock-solid, not prone to crashing (Ecco was bullet-proof, and I really pushed it. DevonThink is also crash-free.)
2) the ability to filter an outline based on values in one or more columns
3) the columns whose values are filterable would include text, numerical, date, drop-down, etc.
4) the drop-down columns should allow the user to select more than one choice. This was a hugely useful feature of Ecco, and it's amazing how few other apps have copied this.
5) if an item that satisfies the filter is not a top-level item, the filtered outline would show the selected item's parent items in place, but grayed-out. This would preserve the context of the filtered item, without making it look like the parent items satisfied the filter also.
6) the filtered item should also include the item's children. Currently, OmniOutliner doesn't allow this, so if you did, it would be a huge plus.
7) having tabbed views - as you're planning - is extremely important. In other words, the ability to keep different views of the same outline visible at all times, switching between them just by clicking on the appropriate tab.
8) each tabbed view can have its own column structure, different from the others.
9) the ability to save a tabbed view so that when I open a document for a particular project, all the different views that I want are automatically displayed before me, and I don't have to manually create the layout I created yesterday and need again today.
10) it's important to be able to name and save filters, so they can be easily re-applied
11) the ability to insert image files into items (or notes), and the ability to re-size them on the fly. Ecco could do that, OmniOutliner can't.
I'm sure more will occur to me ... but in the meantime, thanks for asking, and thanks so much for developing this. Can't wait to try it out.
roger
p.s.: Do you have an email address where I can send you a screenshot or two from different Ecco configurations?
To answer your original question, here's an incomplete list:
1) the outliner be rock-solid, not prone to crashing (Ecco was bullet-proof, and I really pushed it. DevonThink is also crash-free.)
2) the ability to filter an outline based on values in one or more columns
3) the columns whose values are filterable would include text, numerical, date, drop-down, etc.
4) the drop-down columns should allow the user to select more than one choice. This was a hugely useful feature of Ecco, and it's amazing how few other apps have copied this.
5) if an item that satisfies the filter is not a top-level item, the filtered outline would show the selected item's parent items in place, but grayed-out. This would preserve the context of the filtered item, without making it look like the parent items satisfied the filter also.
6) the filtered item should also include the item's children. Currently, OmniOutliner doesn't allow this, so if you did, it would be a huge plus.
7) having tabbed views - as you're planning - is extremely important. In other words, the ability to keep different views of the same outline visible at all times, switching between them just by clicking on the appropriate tab.
8) each tabbed view can have its own column structure, different from the others.
9) the ability to save a tabbed view so that when I open a document for a particular project, all the different views that I want are automatically displayed before me, and I don't have to manually create the layout I created yesterday and need again today.
10) it's important to be able to name and save filters, so they can be easily re-applied
11) the ability to insert image files into items (or notes), and the ability to re-size them on the fly. Ecco could do that, OmniOutliner can't.
I'm sure more will occur to me ... but in the meantime, thanks for asking, and thanks so much for developing this. Can't wait to try it out.
roger
p.s.: Do you have an email address where I can send you a screenshot or two from different Ecco configurations?
SheetPlanner
2/13/2018 9:36 pm
Paul,
Thanks. I am definitely thinking about it for v 1.5.
Peter
Paul Korm wrote:
Folders are tags, or tags are folders. (As also implied in the Guardian
column @rogbar quoted). Not a bad idea. Tinderbox produces the same
kind of view in its attribute browser. It's a popular feature. I see
no reason why the feature would drive anyone nuts. Go fo it.
SheetPlanner wrote:
>One feature I am thinking about for a future SheetPlanner release is
the
>ability to view columns and column choices as folders.
SheetPlanner
2/13/2018 9:37 pm
Ken,
Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.
Peter
Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.
Peter
SheetPlanner
2/13/2018 9:40 pm
Roger,
Great feedback.
Everything listed will be in 1.0 or if not mist likely 1.1.
The bulk of it is in 1.0.
Thanks
Peter
rogbar wrote:
Great feedback.
Everything listed will be in 1.0 or if not mist likely 1.1.
The bulk of it is in 1.0.
Thanks
Peter
rogbar wrote:
Hi Peter,
To answer your original question, here's an incomplete list:
1) the outliner be rock-solid, not prone to crashing (Ecco was
bullet-proof, and I really pushed it. DevonThink is also crash-free.)
2) the ability to filter an outline based on values in one or more
columns
3) the columns whose values are filterable would include text,
numerical, date, drop-down, etc.
4) the drop-down columns should allow the user to select more than one
choice. This was a hugely useful feature of Ecco, and it's amazing how
few other apps have copied this.
5) if an item that satisfies the filter is not a top-level item, the
filtered outline would show the selected item's parent items in place,
but grayed-out. This would preserve the context of the filtered item,
without making it look like the parent items satisfied the filter also.
6) the filtered item should also include the item's children. Currently,
OmniOutliner doesn't allow this, so if you did, it would be a huge plus.
7) having tabbed views - as you're planning - is extremely important. In
other words, the ability to keep different views of the same outline
visible at all times, switching between them just by clicking on the
appropriate tab.
8) each tabbed view can have its own column structure, different from
the others.
9) the ability to save a tabbed view so that when I open a document for
a particular project, all the different views that I want are
automatically displayed before me, and I don't have to manually create
the layout I created yesterday and need again today.
10) it's important to be able to name and save filters, so they can be
easily re-applied
11) the ability to insert image files into items (or notes), and the
ability to re-size them on the fly. Ecco could do that, OmniOutliner
can't.
I'm sure more will occur to me ... but in the meantime, thanks for
asking, and thanks so much for developing this. Can't wait to try it
out.
roger
p.s.: Do you have an email address where I can send you a screenshot or
two from different Ecco configurations?
SheetPlanner
2/13/2018 9:41 pm
Jon,
Thanks for the feedback. I am thinking of doing a web app in the long run (that syncs with the desktop). When we get there it might be an option for you.
Thanks
Peter
Jon Polish wrote:
Agreed, and I am a huge Ecco fan. But for me InfoQube presents freedom
and capability now lacking in Ecco. While SheetPlanner intrigues me, I
will not be able to utilize it because it is Apple only.
Jon
Ken wrote:
>New may be good, but
>old is not always bad or obsolete, and the wheel does not always need
to
>be reinvented.
>
>I wish you luck,
>
>--Ken
SheetPlanner
2/13/2018 9:42 pm
Roger,
peterdavey29@me.com
Thanks,
Peter
rogbar wrote:
peterdavey29@me.com
Thanks,
Peter
rogbar wrote:
Hi Peter,
To answer your original question, here's an incomplete list:
1) the outliner be rock-solid, not prone to crashing (Ecco was
bullet-proof, and I really pushed it. DevonThink is also crash-free.)
2) the ability to filter an outline based on values in one or more
columns
3) the columns whose values are filterable would include text,
numerical, date, drop-down, etc.
4) the drop-down columns should allow the user to select more than one
choice. This was a hugely useful feature of Ecco, and it's amazing how
few other apps have copied this.
5) if an item that satisfies the filter is not a top-level item, the
filtered outline would show the selected item's parent items in place,
but grayed-out. This would preserve the context of the filtered item,
without making it look like the parent items satisfied the filter also.
6) the filtered item should also include the item's children. Currently,
OmniOutliner doesn't allow this, so if you did, it would be a huge plus.
7) having tabbed views - as you're planning - is extremely important. In
other words, the ability to keep different views of the same outline
visible at all times, switching between them just by clicking on the
appropriate tab.
8) each tabbed view can have its own column structure, different from
the others.
9) the ability to save a tabbed view so that when I open a document for
a particular project, all the different views that I want are
automatically displayed before me, and I don't have to manually create
the layout I created yesterday and need again today.
10) it's important to be able to name and save filters, so they can be
easily re-applied
11) the ability to insert image files into items (or notes), and the
ability to re-size them on the fly. Ecco could do that, OmniOutliner
can't.
I'm sure more will occur to me ... but in the meantime, thanks for
asking, and thanks so much for developing this. Can't wait to try it
out.
roger
p.s.: Do you have an email address where I can send you a screenshot or
two from different Ecco configurations?
SheetPlanner
2/13/2018 10:01 pm
Ken,
I think you will love SheetPlanner.
We have rows that carry forward when not completed (can be turned on or off per row in the inspector). Integration between the outliner and calendar (month view now, week, day later). You can drag and drop items from the outline to the calendar to change start or finish dates with some pretty good logic that figures out what you are doing. You can move items around in the calendar and the outline updates.
We have custom columns also, links to files in your file system or the cloud, browse web links in a tab, filters that show up like a bookmark in Safari and a timeline view.
We have big plans for 1.1, 1.5 and 2.0.
Thanks
Peter
Ken wrote:
I think you will love SheetPlanner.
We have rows that carry forward when not completed (can be turned on or off per row in the inspector). Integration between the outliner and calendar (month view now, week, day later). You can drag and drop items from the outline to the calendar to change start or finish dates with some pretty good logic that figures out what you are doing. You can move items around in the calendar and the outline updates.
We have custom columns also, links to files in your file system or the cloud, browse web links in a tab, filters that show up like a bookmark in Safari and a timeline view.
We have big plans for 1.1, 1.5 and 2.0.
Thanks
Peter
Ken wrote:
A big thank you to rogbar for copying that article. It was a nice read,
and a story that many of us loyal Ecco users found ourselves as minor
characters. I also started using it in 1993 and finally had to abandon
it a number of years ago when my office migrated to Win7 and would not
allow me to keep the software on my machine.
While I would love a reincarnation of the original program since I was
familiar with its workings and would need no learning curve, I realize
that is not really an option in my life. While I am sure if I thought
about it, I could probably come up with numerous things I loved about
Ecco, I will try to highlight a few that come immediately to mind.
First, I loved the easy integration between the calendar and any tabbed
pages that were created. Most good programs offer some form of this
today, but I really liked that Ecco had a calendar section and a task
section with tasks that could carry forward. Again, not complex, but
well laid out.
Another thing that I loved was the ability to add columns to tabs. This
allowed me to look at data in a number of ways that worked for me. I
know that Airtable (and probably many others) seems to do this somewhat
well, but setting it up always required my brain to go into "database"
mode and think how I can get the view to look the way I would like. My
Life Organized also offers views and layout that work for me, but again,
Ecco made it somewhat simple once you learned their "logic".
While Ecco did not really have tags in the current sense, I do
appreciate a program that offers good control and use of tags. I think
the biggest failure in using tags is Asana. They took a very powerful
feature and totally screwed it up by not allowing a tags section on the
left hand column where folders/projects normally reside to allow quick
filtering. big mistake in my book. If I cannot see my tags, how am I
supposed to be able to use them?
I know that PPL has poured his heart and soul into creating the modern
version of Ecco with IQ, and I am not sure that a second Ecco "clone"
would be all that helpful. What I might encourage is finding a copy of
Ecco and using it for a bit to try and understand first hand why it was
loved by many. Programs like Airtable, IQ, Hyperplan and MLO, to name
just a few, give me hope more than programs like Asana. There seem to
be a group of developers who understand what programs like Ecco offered,
and then their are program and companies, like Asana and Trello, that
are somewhat creative in their efforts, but seem to have a different
focus (or lack of appreciation for past efforts). New may be good, but
old is not always bad or obsolete, and the wheel does not always need to
be reinvented.
I wish you luck,
--Ken
Ken
2/14/2018 3:57 pm
I'll need to watch developments "from afar" for the time being as I am in a Windows-based work environment, but am looking forward to seeing how things develop.
--Ken
--Ken
MadaboutDana
2/14/2018 10:22 pm
Hot damn! Well, I'm excited!