My manager has recently mentioned that she is wanting me to start working on documenting our polices, procedures and operations for our programs. While what ever I put together will eventually end up in MS Word as we are a MS-based local government, I hate attempting any form of outlining in Word. And, as I am more of a program person rather than a planner, I have to admit that writing up policies and procedures is not exactly my cup of tea. I thought that some type of outlining program might help me both organize the subject matter(s) and to break it up into more manageable pieces so it is not so overwhelming.

While I am familiar with a number of the usual suspects, I wanted something that was web-based and could allow me to easily export my work (mostly just text). I am not sure why, but Gingko initially popped into my head. I am normally not a fan of that style of outliner, but it seemed a possible candidate. Workflowy was off the table as I just never clicked with its minimal interface and lack of some type of tree or folder interface. But, I remembered that there were a number of posts about Dynalist, and that seemed like it could be up to the task. It seemed to address many of the things that I disliked about Workflowy.

Two questions. First, is the main high level difference really just a horizontal (Gingko) orientation vs. the more traditional vertical/nested layout (Dynalist), with preferences based heavily on preferred features? Second, is Dynalist, which is seeming to be my preferred choice at the moment, a very stable application? I know a number of folks are using it and have been happy, but just wanted to check in before I begin anything.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

--Ken

I write quite few process narratives for clients, which are generally done in Word and include embedded Visio flowcharts.

You didn't mention why you need a web-based editor -- is it for collaboration with other authors or reviewers?

I think either Gingko or Dynalist would be helpful -- but Dynalist does not "export to Word" -- it exports as plain text so you would need to reformat the exported text, which defeats the point. Gingko exports to Word, with a lot less reformatting needed.

Or you could consider Google docs, or even Office 365 in the cloud.

I love Dynalist, but I just had a harrowing experience with it. I had one long list disappear as if deleted. I had opened the list (which was a node of a parent list) in the browser of three different devices in the course of 24 hours. The next day, when I looked for it in Safari my MacBook, it was gone. It was also gone when I looked for it on my iPad. Luckily, when I got to work on Monday morning and opened Dynalist in Chrome on my Windows PC, the list appear. I immediately exported it as an OPML file, and, sure enough, when I went up to the higher level, the list disappeared. I was able to restore it by pasting the OPML text back into Dynalist. I sent an email to the Dynalist support people and have not gotten any kind of response.

The result? My confidence in Dynalist is shaken, and my respect for the developers has diminished. I may continue to use Dynalist, but I'll make frequent backups with OPML exports.

As for your project, if you're going to be writing a lot of material, I'd choose Gingko over Dynalist anyway. Dynalist isn't well made for crafting lots of body text, in my view. This also sounds like a great project for Scrivener, if you don't need access to it through the cloud.

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

The result? My confidence in Dynalist is shaken, and my respect for the
developers has diminished. I may continue to use Dynalist, but I'll make
frequent backups with OPML exports.

This is one thing I like about WorkFlowy. Nothing like that ever happened over the years that I've been using it, and the Pro version allows you to set up automatic daily backups of the entire file to Dropbox (which thankfully I haven't had the need to consult yet, but it gives me peace of mind).

In fairness, the Pro version of Dynalist does have a backup feature. You can backup to Dropbox or Google Drive (or both). It also does Version History (a recent addition), and I may have been able to restore the missing list that way, if I hadn't been able to fix it the way I did.

Steve Z.

Paul Korm wrote:

You didn't mention why you need a web-based editor -- is it for
collaboration with other authors or reviewers?

I think either Gingko or Dynalist would be helpful -- but Dynalist does
not "export to Word" -- it exports as plain text so you would need to
reformat the exported text, which defeats the point. Gingko exports to
Word, with a lot less reformatting needed.

Or you could consider Google docs, or even Office 365 in the cloud.

My preference for web-based is because I cannot install software on my desktop machine. I can run portable software, and have a few options there like Right Note and MLO. But, I was hoping to KISS if possible.

--Ken

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I sent an email to the Dynalist support people and have
not gotten any kind of response.

The result? My confidence in Dynalist is shaken, and my respect for the
developers has diminished. I may continue to use Dynalist, but I'll make
frequent backups with OPML exports.

As for your project, if you're going to be writing a lot of material,
I'd choose Gingko over Dynalist anyway. Dynalist isn't well made for
crafting lots of body text, in my view. This also sounds like a great
project for Scrivener, if you don't need access to it through the cloud.

Steve Z.

Not what I was hoping to hear, but glad I asked, and, as always, appreciate the candid reply. I'll give more consideration to Gingko. I am assuming that Gingko is free as I did not see any pricing information listed, but I could be mistaken.

--Ken

Ken wrote:

I
am assuming that Gingko is free as I did not see any pricing information
listed, but I could be mistaken.

That's a bit strange... But I think it's still the freemium model. Probably you'll be limited to 5 or 10 documents unless you subscribe.

Dr Andus wrote:

Ken wrote:
> I
>am assuming that Gingko is free as I did not see any pricing
information
>listed, but I could be mistaken.

That's a bit strange... But I think it's still the freemium model.
Probably you'll be limited to 5 or 10 documents unless you subscribe.

There site is a bit lacking on pricing and that is why I assumed free. I will look a bit further, but am now throwing Right Note in the mix as I own it and it is portable.

--Ken

If the final destination is Word documents:

* Word has the "Multilevel List" icon on default home view toolbar, variety of options of auto node/sub-nodes levels:
TAB moves in a level for each new line, deleting each TAB moves line back up a level

However if sharing online:

* Can Setup a free google gmail account (or more) + free google drive online storage (or more) for that email account(s)

* Share documents & passwords with your manager, or not. Or one gmail+storage just for you (Work in Progress) + one (or more) gmail+storage for Team sharing

* Google Docs has Outline views too + can import from any app/software into it with a little knowhow depending on the app or searching these forums:

https://www.google.com/search?q=google+docs+outline&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch

* Google Docs can be imported into MS Word too:

https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/7654/how-to-export-documents-from-google-docs-to-your-computer/

washere wrote:

If the final destination is Word documents:

* Word has the "Multilevel List" icon on default home view toolbar,
variety of options of auto node/sub-nodes levels:
TAB moves in a level for each new line, deleting each TAB moves line
back up a level

However if sharing online:

I'll give Word another look to see if I find it workable. Regarding sharing, I'll need to talk with with my manager, but I suspect that I am going to draft up an outline before I begin to share anything. And if we do share, it will then be a Word document as we have One Drive accounts, individual and corporate.

--Ken

* Files/folders can be set to shared (public) or private on most free cloud options incl. Google-Drive or MS 1drive.

* Also MS Word & Google Docs, and their outliners are TWO different beasts, though they can easily be imported/exported into each other for "most" files w/ structure intact.

* Many Tree/Outline apps/softwares can be imported into both MS Word or Google Docs straight with an export option or using other apps to convert (as noted often on this site).
Or in many cases just: Select All + Copy & Paste works.
If not straightforward, someone here will know how to import your final app choices (Win/Android/Mac) Outlines into MS Word or G-Doc.

-Good luck.

Ken wrote:

> My manager has recently mentioned that she is wanting me to start working on documenting our polices, procedures and operations for our programs. While what ever I put together will eventually end up in MS Word as we are a MS-based local government (...)
> I thought that some type of outlining program might help me both organize the subject matter(s) and to break it up into more manageable pieces so it is not so overwhelming.
> While I am familiar with a number of the usual suspects, I wanted something that was web-based and could allow me to easily export my work

(...)

> My preference for web-based is because I cannot install software on my desktop machine.

Hi Ken,

Have you considered InfoQube for this task ? It includes a 1-pane / 2-pane outliner. The first pane supports rich text. The second pane also, but also many other formats, including markdown, hand writing, web pages, pdf, etc
It can export a whole outline to HTML / Word.
If set-up on a LAN, it is multi-user ready

There are other available UIs to show your items / outline, such as the Gantt, Timeline, MapView, 2-D Surface and a Calendar (Google Calendar sync is the current dev focus), but you may not require these, from what your needs seem to be.

I know you had issues running IQ at work a couple of years ago, even the portable version, which is quite unusual, is it still the case ? I can help if you want.

BTW, Free personal license to the friendly crowd here at outlinersoftware !

Pierre Paul Landry
IQ Designer
http://www.infoqube.biz

Pierre Paul Landry wrote:

Ken wrote:

Hi Ken,

Have you considered InfoQube for this task ? It includes a 1-pane /
2-pane outliner. The first pane supports rich text. The second pane
also, but also many other formats, including markdown, hand writing, web
pages, pdf, etc
It can export a whole outline to HTML / Word.
If set-up on a LAN, it is multi-user ready

There are other available UIs to show your items / outline, such as the
Gantt, Timeline, MapView, 2-D Surface and a Calendar (Google Calendar
sync is the current dev focus), but you may not require these, from what
your needs seem to be.

I know you had issues running IQ at work a couple of years ago, even the
portable version, which is quite unusual, is it still the case ? I can
help if you want.

BTW, Free personal license to the friendly crowd here at
outlinersoftware !

Pierre Paul Landry
IQ Designer
http://www.infoqube.biz

Hi Pierre,

Thanks for the generous offer. As you know, I was a huge Ecco fan, and if I could bring it back to life easily, I probably would have, although I have been away from it now for a few years and have probably changed my work habits to suit the current environment at work and on the web. I really need to sit down when I am not under an overly heavy load to see if I can find some of that old Ecco love in IQ. I have probably had a new machine or two since I last tried the portable version of IQ at work, and again, could test it out when I am not backlogged. They are, however, quite particular about any software as we are tied into the city's network and security is a big issue for municipalities. For example, even though we are a MS shop, there are MS products that we are not allowed to use, like MS Teams. So, one starts to adopt the mindset of if all you have is a hammer, then everything starts to look like nails. That is one reason that web-based and portable applications have great appeal to me. Are there any good tutorial or introductory videos for IQ that I could watch during my bus commute?

--Ken

Ken wrote:

Are there any good tutorial or introductory videos for IQ that I could watch during my bus commute?

Videos would be great, and I do have a Youtube channel here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Pm-HHb8153_NMWB3FeU0Q

But have not had time to add much content yet... :-(

You can however export any section of the online manual to a local file:
http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=booktree

I did it for chapter 2, saved it as mht/mhtml and put it here for you:
http://public.sqlnotes.net/download/infoqube/InfoQubeUserInterface.mhtml

What you can do is save the downloaded file to dropbox and in your mobile device dropbox app, set it to offline access. Tap on it and Chrome should display it just fine. It does on my Android tablet

HTH !

Pierre

Pierre,

I spent several hours this summer going through the features, settings, examples, import/export, UI etc etc on IQ. You can tell a lot about someone by their manners in writing and how they address and treat people. You seem a very nice and decent fellow. Also your work is unique and very interesting with great potential. There are quite a few threads here mentioning IQ. Is there a specific thread for feedback and suggestions for your work here you can link or maybe create one if not already here? I might go through IQ again and write some feedback and suggestions this weekend if I have time. They are about various aspects, not just features. I do not want to write about it here in this thread.

If you are using the paid version of Dynalist, as someone said, it has backups and a powerful folder to inbox system and I've seen big Dynalists done on it.

https://dynalist.io/d/LtzYcZKdHpVyOk2og6gkuEw4

Gingko on the other hand is good for collaboration especially once the desktop app is launched but it has limited space and I find the horizontal orientation not as good for typing as it is for reading long texts.

I haven't used it since it's update but have you considered Quip? I don't know how stable it is but it seems to have the best of both worlds.

Another web app that might interest you is Moo.do with it's backup to Google Drive if you use the paid version.

Just for the record, I had mentioned sending a message to Dynalist about the problem I had and not getting a response. Since then, Erica from Dynalist has responded to my comment about losing a list.

Steve Z.

Foolness wrote:

If you are using the paid version of Dynalist, as someone said, it has
backups and a powerful folder to inbox system and I've seen big
Dynalists done on it.

https://dynalist.io/d/LtzYcZKdHpVyOk2og6gkuEw4

Gingko on the other hand is good for collaboration especially once the
desktop app is launched but it has limited space and I find the
horizontal orientation not as good for typing as it is for reading long
texts.

I haven't used it since it's update but have you considered Quip? I
don't know how stable it is but it seems to have the best of both
worlds.

Another web app that might interest you is Moo.do with it's backup to
Google Drive if you use the paid version.

I do use Quip, but mostly for spreadsheets. I'll take another look at it for outlining/writing.

--Ken

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

Just for the record, I had mentioned sending a message to Dynalist about
the problem I had and not getting a response. Since then, Erica from
Dynalist has responded to my comment about losing a list.

Steve Z.

A reasonable explanation for the loss?

--Ken

No. They are baffled by it too. They tried to reproduce it, and couldn't... not surprising, because I didn't give them a lot of detail about how it happened, since it took me by surprise... I wasn't keeping track of my steps over three devices and several hours.

I will let everyone know if it happens again.


Ken wrote:

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
Just for the record, I had mentioned sending a message to Dynalist about
>the problem I had and not getting a response. Since then, Erica from
>Dynalist has responded to my comment about losing a list.
>
>Steve Z.

A reasonable explanation for the loss?

--Ken