Reading Cassius's "From Jot+ to ???" got me thinking more generally about notetaking programs, so I thought I had better start a new thread. I'd like to jump in with some general comments about what, for better or worse, have become known as "two-pane outliners" - essentially note-taking programs the titles of which are displayed in the form of a hierarchical tree in one pane, with the corresponding notes in the other one.

There are so many of these programs - e.g., MyInfo, WhizFolders, Treepad, Jot+, etc., etc.,etc. - that it is difficult to differentiate between them - in part, no doubt, because they make use of many commonly-available "bolt-on" elements. When considered alongside free programs like KeyNote (http://www.tranglos.com/free/keynote.html or similarly free word-processors like RoughDraft (http://www.salsbury.f2s.com/rd.htm it is often hard to see (1) what value is being added by the commercial products; and (2) and how different they all really are from one another.

Last month I carried out another glum trawl through some of the better-known programs to see what was happening. The answer seems to be "not much". It's true that one can occasionally point to useful differences: MyInfo's .HEAD import feature is one example, and WhizFolders' upcoming "copy universal link feature" (see the thread on "Whizfolders and graphical front ends" back in July) promises to be very helpful, and may temporarily differentiate it from the other clones.

Overall, though, I have been rather disappointed with these programs. This is probably a bit unfair. After all, I already use Zoot, a free-form database program that covers many of the PIM or note-taking and note-organizing features that I need. If I weren't using Zoot I might be looking for one of the two-pane notetakers, although I'd probably plump for something more like MyBase or UltraRecall. As the main defect of Zoot is its lack of a rich text editor, the new Whizfolders, with its promised universal links is the only one that directly adds much value to what I already have.

Even so, the sector does look rather moribund. What is really wrong (IMO) with all these two-pane notetakers is the lack of a decent single-pane outlining facility within the notes pane of the software. Suggestions and calls for such an obvious feature fall upon deaf ears in software forums, and one has to conclude that this is mainly because there is no easy way of implementing it with available rich text editors. The only notes programs I know of that have such a feature are ndxCards, MS OneNote and InfoSelect. Given the drawbacks of two of them - InfoSelect (lack of a demo; high upgrading price) and ndxCards (oddly archaic interface, to my mind) - that leaves MS poised to sweep the general two-pane note-taking field with its new version, even though its outlining features so far are rudimentary.

What has gone wrong with this software sector? Or am I just experiencing one of those jaded plateaux that are to be expected when in the grip of longterm CRIMP...?

Derek

Derek

So why not use a decent one-pane outliner?

Derek,

I agree with your assessment. In my opinion, it is actually a misnomer to even call them two-pane outliners. They are hierarchical, free-form databases. In this task, many of them excel. UltraRecall, MyInfo, probably ADM would be among those that add useful features for managing this data beyond the simple hierarchy. I think these programs actually inhibit outlining as a creative tool because they are cumbersome to use and isolate each piece of work in a discrete box. The few single-pane outliners are definitely more deft at reorganizing your work and provide the holistic view that is crucial for smooth writing, but they lack an database functionality. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I still believe that GrandView was the only program that provided a powerful, single-pane outliner and powerful database functions. It baffles me that no one has yet to replicate GV in the Windows environment.

Steve Z.


Derek Cornish wrote:

Reading Cassius's "From Jot+ to ???" got me thinking more generally about notetaking
programs, so I thought I had better start a new thread. I'd like to jump in with some
general comments about what, for better or worse, have become known as "two-pane
outliners" - essentially note-taking programs the titles of which are displayed in
the form of a hierarchical tree in one pane, with the corresponding notes in the other
one.

There are so many of these programs - e.g., MyInfo, WhizFolders, Treepad,
Jot+, etc., etc.,etc. - that it is difficult to differentiate between them - in part,
no doubt, because they make use of many commonly-available "bolt-on" elements. When
considered alongside free programs like KeyNote
(http://www.tranglos.com/free/keynote.html or similarly free
word-processors like RoughDraft (http://www.salsbury.f2s.com/rd.htm it is
often hard to see (1) what value is being added by the commercial products; and (2) and
how different they all really are from one another.

Last month I carried out another
glum trawl through some of the better-known programs to see what was happening. The
answer seems to be "not much". It's true that one can occasionally point to useful
differences: MyInfo's .HEAD import feature is one example, and WhizFolders'
upcoming "copy universal link feature" (see the thread on "Whizfolders and
graphical front ends" back in July) promises to be very helpful, and may temporarily
differentiate it from the other clones.

Overall, though, I have been rather
disappointed with these programs. This is probably a bit unfair. After all, I already
use Zoot, a free-form database program that covers many of the PIM or note-taking and
note-organizing features that I need. If I weren't using Zoot I might be looking for
one of the two-pane notetakers, although I'd probably plump for something more like
MyBase or UltraRecall. As the main defect of Zoot is its lack of a rich text editor, the
new Whizfolders, with its promised universal links is the only one that directly adds
much value to what I already have.

Even so, the sector does look rather moribund.
What is really wrong (IMO) with all these two-pane notetakers is the lack of a decent
single-pane outlining facility within the notes pane of the software. Suggestions
and calls for such an obvious feature fall upon deaf ears in software forums, and one
has to conclude that this is mainly because there is no easy way of implementing it with
available rich text editors. The only notes programs I know of that have such a feature
are ndxCards, MS OneNote and InfoSelect. Given the drawbacks of two of them -
InfoSelect (lack of a demo; high upgrading price) and ndxCards (oddly archaic
interface, to my mind) - that leaves MS poised to sweep the general two-pane
note-taking field with its new version, even though its outlining features so far are
rudimentary.

What has gone wrong with this software sector? Or am I just
experiencing one of those jaded plateaux that are to be expected when in the grip of
longterm CRIMP...?

Derek

Derek

For windows, I would suggest Evernote for note taking and Ariadne for outlining.

However, I would agree that the Windows community is lagging behind Mac for me . . .

If I were using a Mac, I would have a lot more choices in this area.

Notebook, Notetaker, and DevonThink would be something I would use for everyday note-taking.

OmniOutliner and Tinderbox are also a capable outliner as well.

I do, actually, David. Like Steve Z. I'm a longtime Grandview user.

But I'd like some other options, too - e.g., ones that combine single-pane outlining within two (or more)-pane notetakers. In a rather vague way I thought OLE might be another answer - if one could, say, embed a Word outline within a notetaking program and edit it without opening up Word itself. But this does not seem feasible so far.

Also, as Kenneth points out, there just seems more on offer for writers who use MACs.

Derek

David Dunham wrote:

So why not use a decent one-pane outliner?

Steve -

The few single-pane outliners are definitely more deft at reorganizing your work and provide the holistic view that is crucial for smooth writing, but they lack an database functionality.

I couldn't agree more. I'm hoping that the long-awaited new version of Zoot will enable all sorts of goodies, including single-pane outlining to get linked with or embedded in the program. I'm not holding my breath on that one though. Meanwhile I am continually looking for ways to add value to Zoot. Hence the recent dabbling with WhizFolders - though not for outlining, of course :-), only for its rich text editing.

Derek

Kenneth -

For windows, I would suggest Evernote for note taking and Ariadne for outlining.

Although I admire the different tack that Evernote has taken, I'm still very much wed to Zoot for my text notes; and if it wasn't Zoot, it would probably be InfoHandler, since I am an old Agenda fan hard to teach new tricks to. The only thing that would lure me away from Zoot would be the sort of thing Steve mentioned - in my case, a sophisticated single-pane outliner with decent freeform database functions so that note-taking, note organizing, outlining and drafting could all be done in one program (preferably) - or, if not, in an integrated or interlinked suite. Not NotaBene, though, which has a very clunky outliner. Microsoft, of course, has all the tools to do this, but apparently not the will, expertise, or inclination (strike out those that don't apply).

I'll take a look at Ariadne, though. I've been meaning to for some time.

All the best,

Derek