Okay, I too have now joined those who have made the move to Mac. I just ordered a MacBook, and I am eagerly awaiting all the fresh CRIMPing I can do on the new machine.

I know there has been plenty of discussion of Mac software here in the recent past, but I wanted to throw out these questions to Mac users out there. What is the best word processor available for Mac? What is the best outliner? What is the best general all-purpose PIM?

(BTW, I remain a staunch Zooter, because I'll continue to use Zoot at work where it is indispensible to me.)

Thanks!

Steve Z.

Hi Stephen.

Okay, I too have now joined those who have made the move to Mac. I just ordered a MacBook,
and I am eagerly awaiting all the fresh CRIMPing I can do on the new machine.

Congrats.

What is the best word processor available for Mac?
What is the best outliner?
What is the best general all-purpose PIM?

I cannot tell you which is THE BEST word processor/outliner/PIM. I can only tell you what I use:

My writing tools:
- Scrivener for writing
- NeoOffice for exchanging files with my customers and publishers (and off course for calculations and presentations)

My outlining tools:
- Xmind for brainstorming and creating the first sketches of an outline
- Scrivener for expanding and modifying the outline while writing

My PIM tools:
- iCal, Mail and Address Book in combination with
- Taskpaper (though I am also just looking at Things)

(BTW, I remain a staunch Zooter, because I'll continue to use Zoot
at work where it is indispensible to me.)

You surely know you can use Parallels or VMware to install Windows and Zoot on your Mac. Dragging notes or text snippets from Zoot to a Mac application (or the other way round) works. I think there was a thread on using Zoot on the Mac on the Zoot mailing list.

Franz

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

What is the best word
processor available for Mac? What is the best outliner? What is the best general
all-purpose PIM?

You expect agreement on "best" from this forum?

I use Word when compatibility is important, Pages when formatting is important.

I naturally use Opal for outlining, and will give you a discount if you decide to buy it. (Do download the 30 day trial!)

I keep my contacts and appointments in Address Book and iCal so I can synchronize them with my iPhone. Is that a PIM?

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

Okay, I too have now joined those who have made the move to Mac. I just ordered a MacBook,
and I am eagerly awaiting all the fresh CRIMPing I can do on the new machine.

I know
there has been plenty of discussion of Mac software here in the recent past, but I
wanted to throw out these questions to Mac users out there. What is the best word
processor available for Mac?

The answers to all these questions depend to some extent on what you want to do, Stephen.

On word processors, are your requirements academic (in which case Mellel might be the best bet), short-form with layout (Pages, Nisus Writer Express or MS Word 2008), long-form (Nisus Writer Pro 3.0, now with comments), fiction (Jer's, StoryMill or Storyist), MS-avoiding (obvious answers) or drafting for all of the above (Scrivener, of course, still gaining adherents)? And others I know I've missed.

What is the best outliner? Again, for what purpose? OmniOutliner Pro or TAO are often regarded as the most comprehensively functional, but Tinderbox is also very clever (if expensive). And of course Opal is good.

What is the best general

all-purpose PIM? Yet again, it depends what you want it for. The Mac world doesn't work quite as the Windows world does. Because of the work the OS already does, both under the hood under Leopard, and above it with iCal, Mail and Address Book, Mac PIM software tends to focus on task applications; you'll have read praise here for Things, and discussion of OmniFocus. There are many many others. But if you want comprehensive-ish apps comparable to those for Windows, there are Daylite, Contactizer and of course MS Entourage. If you mean something slightly different - organizable datastores for example, along the lines of Zoot and its rivals - there are Eaglefiler, DevonThink Pro, Yojimbo, NoteTaker, Circus Ponies' Notebook and (I'm assuming your MacBook will be new, equipped with Leopard) Together. And others still! Welcome to a new world of CRIMPing...

(BTW, I remain a staunch Zooter, because I'll continue to use Zoot
at work where it is indispensible to me.)

Thanks!

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

Okay, I too have now joined those who have made the move to Mac. I just ordered a MacBook,
and I am eagerly awaiting all the fresh CRIMPing I can do on the new machine.

et tu, Steve? This is getting serious!

(BTW, I remain a staunch Zooter, because I'll continue to use Zoot
at work where it is indispensible to me.)

I'll be interested to know if you end up using a substitute for Zoot on the Mac, given its ongoing lack of rtf, and various other limitations (number of folders, size of items) - although, like you, I currently find it essential. I'd also be interested in your assessment of the much-praised scrivener, and the various outliners available on the Mac.

I'm also a bit confused about the relative merits of the different Mac models (let's assume all using Leopard). What models are people using, and why?

Derek

Hi.

I'm also a bit confused about the relative merits of
the different Mac models (let's assume all using Leopard). What models are people
using, and why?

- Mac Mini (Intel DualCore) - because I already had an excellent 20" display and wanted a (relatively) cheap and silent computer;
- iBook G4, 12" screen - because I wanted the smallest Mac portable as I only use it for writing when out of the office and do not need a huge display; the Macbook Air was not available when I got my iBook but I wouldn't have bought it as I wouldn't carry around such an expensive machine.

Franz

I appreciate the input from all. Here's what I'm leaning toward now:

- for composition: Scrivener
- for general all-purpose note taker: Circus Ponies Notebook (because I like OneNote in the PC world)
- for information collection and management: still thinking about this but top contender would be DevonThink

I also think I won't be able to resist OmniOutliner and Opal.

But keep the suggestions flowing. It is always fun to be starting from scratch!

The MacBook I'm getting was the top model from 2007 -- black, thank goodness.

Thanks!

Steve Z.

Franz Grieser wrote:

You surely know you can use Parallels or VMware to install Windows and Zoot on your Mac. Dragging notes or

text snippets from Zoot to a Mac application (or the other way round) works. I think there was a thread on using Zoot on the Mac on the Zoot mailing list.

Franz,

I am aware of this, but one thing I'm unsure of is, do I also have to buy a copy of Windows to do this or is it enough just to get Parallels or VMware?

Thanks!

Steve Z.

David Dunham wrote:

I naturally use Opal for outlining, and will
give you a discount if you decide to buy it. (Do download the 30 day trial!)

BTW, David, I am not entirely new to the Mac world. I owned a Mac II back in the day and was an ACTA customer. I'm looking forward to trying Opal.

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I appreciate the input from all. Here's what I'm leaning toward now:

- for
composition: Scrivener
- for general all-purpose note taker: Circus Ponies
Notebook (because I like OneNote in the PC world)
- for information collection and
management: still thinking about this but top contender would be DevonThink

I also
think I won't be able to resist OmniOutliner and Opal.

But keep the suggestions
flowing. It is always fun to be starting from scratch!

The MacBook I'm getting was
the top model from 2007 -- black, thank goodness.

Thanks!

Steve Z.

A couple of points:

- you may not be aware that a few of the best new Mac apps (e.g. Together) only work on Leopard - and obviously not all 2007 MacBooks come pre-loaded with it

- OmniOutliner basic flavour comes with the OS (as distinct from the Pro flavour, which is the one I referrred to above)

- before settling on a data collector and manager it's worth reading Ted Goranson's columns about outliners and datastores in About This Particular Macintosh, since say 2005, and Melodie Neal's six parter on "litter collectors" in her Deep Litter blog starting 5th March 2007 (http://melodien.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00%2B11%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00%2B11%3A00&max-results=29 - both aged sets of reviews, but many of the points they both make about individual apps are not out-of-date

- DevonThink is now regarded as long in the tooth and somewhat clunky, as we await Version 2.0; but some of us keep the faith because we think that the development team who came up with the then-innovatory Version 1 can't fail to turn up something good and clever for 2.0 (a bit like Zoot's development, I suppose). BTW, I think for serious use DT Pro is the minimum version to get.

H

Stephen

>You surely know you can use Parallels or VMware to install
>Windows and Zoot on your Mac.

I am aware of this, but one thing I'm unsure of is, do I also have to
buy a copy of Windows to do this or is it enough just to get
Parallels or VMware?

You need a copy of Windows as neither Parallels nor VMware include a licence. But you may install the Windows XP or Vista from your existing system on the Mac and register it with Microsoft - you will probably have to call Microsoft registration agent (or whatever it is called in the USA) and give them your Windows serial number. At least, over here in Germany you are allowed to install Windows XP (don't know about Vista) on a desktop and a mobile computer.

Franz

OmG !

With all the choices of Mac software, I don't dare switch from Windows! Self-Control! Self-Control! ...

-c

BTW. If you think about using Tinderbox, check out the screencast on http://www.eastgate.com/download/TinderboxNovel.mov It shows how TB may be used for planning a novel - the procedures described, however, can be adapted to non-fiction works, too.

Franz

Thanks for that video... very interesting. I should give Tinderbox another look when I have time. I've always found its interface a little archaic, but it is definitely powerful. There's room for an enterprising programmer to come along and develop a competitor with a rethought UI.

-- Chris

Franz Grieser wrote:

BTW. If you think about using Tinderbox, check out the screencast on
http://www.eastgate.com/download/TinderboxNovel.mov It shows how TB may be
used for planning a novel - the procedures described, however, can be adapted to
non-fiction works, too.

Franz

Two additional Mac PIM-like apps cropped up from the references you all supplied me:

1. Curio (http://www.zengobi.com/products/curio/
2. SOHO Notes (http://www.chronosnet.com/Products/sohonotes.html

Anyone have any experience with these? If so, what do you think? (Should I infer from the fact that no one mentioned them yet that they fail to make the grade?)

Thanks!

Steve Z.

Curio is actually quite good. Curio is probably the closest to OneNote in the sense that it's designed for arbitrary content placement on a page. (In terms of actual use, though, I think Circus Ponies Notebook is closer, but it uses a structured outline metaphor for all content.)

SOHO Notes isn't really all that good. There are better options out there (Together, Yojimbo, Journler, Eaglefiler, etc.).

-- Chris

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

Two additional Mac PIM-like apps cropped up from the references you all supplied
me:

1. Curio (http://www.zengobi.com/products/curio/
2. SOHO Notes
(http://www.chronosnet.com/Products/sohonotes.html

Anyone have any
experience with these? If so, what do you think? (Should I infer from the fact that no
one mentioned them yet that they fail to make the grade?)

Thanks!

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

Two additional Mac PIM-like apps cropped up from the references you all supplied
me:

1. Curio (http://www.zengobi.com/products/curio/
2. SOHO Notes
(http://www.chronosnet.com/Products/sohonotes.html

Anyone have any
experience with these? If so, what do you think? (Should I infer from the fact that no
one mentioned them yet that they fail to make the grade?)

Thanks!

Steve Z.

SOHO Notes is in theory one of, if not the, most feature-rich of the "note-taker-type" Mac apps. In practice, unfortunately, the review boards contain numerous complaints about the alleged instability of the software and the unresponsiveness of the developers to requests for technical support. To be fair, there are also some users who say it's stable, it works and it's very good. I think many of the complaints seem to date from one upgrade that corrupted pre-existing data. But possibly not all. I downloaded a trial and deleted it but still have bits hanging round my MacBook.

Curio, by contrast, is a stable and excellent but sometimes overlooked programme, for which I have a licence. I don't know of a direct Windows equivalent. The best description of it that I can think of is that it is a hugely-extensible virtual whiteboard, on which you can place files, text-boxes, images, simple mind-maps, freehand witing and drawing, all graphically linked and supported by a database and a web browser dedicated to searching image-banks. I use it for brainstorming, when you throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I wouldn't use it for outlining factual composition, where the logic of the material often tends to impose its own form on it, and there are other requirements as well. But for anything freeform, it's pretty useful.

H

One other suggestion (which you may have followed already) is to spend some time reading the Scrivener forum (http://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/ which is a crimper's box of delights...

Of course there's a great deal on Scrivener itself. There's also an entire board on "Other People's Software" where many of the applications already mentioned here, such as DT, Curio and Tinderbox are discussed in detail, plus some others including utilities. And there's even a thread currently running discussing what software to put on a "writing" Mac laptop.

Franz Grieser wrote:

- Mac
Mini (Intel DualCore) - because I already had an excellent 20" display and wanted a
(relatively) cheap and silent computer;
- iBook G4, 12" screen - because I wanted the
smallest Mac portable as I only use it for writing when out of the office and do not need a
huge display; the Macbook Air was not available when I got my iBook but I wouldn't have
bought it as I wouldn't carry around such an expensive machine.

Thanks, Franz. That's helpful to know.

Derek

Stephen,

I am crimping away, having just made the switch. So far Eaglefiler, Curio, Circus Ponies Notebook, OmniOutliner Pro, and Scrivener have all seemed potentially valuable enough for me to license.

There are a wealth of sources for information. Some people feel that Mac users are much more likely to upgrade their operating systems and stay on the cutting edge than Windows users. (In my case I was unwilling to move to Vista, having heard so many unfavorable reports.) And since OS X Leopard offers software developers some nifty possibilities, new software and updated versions are rampant.

One interesting site is http://tagamac.com/ Ian Beck has interesting insights into tagging practices, and recommends programs that he feels offer exceptionally good tagging capabilities. He is, for example, an Eaglefiler fan, but he also recommends Together and Leap (both of which I am considering). MailTags is a program he recommends for helping sort your e-mail, and some programs that you can use for long-term e-mail storage will import the tags as well.

As others have suggested, some of the newest programs require Leopard to operate, and I think one way to gauge how up to date the software development process is in a given company is to check whether or not their program has been updated to Leopard. And if you notice that a program requires Leopard to operate, that may well be a sign that the program takes particular advantage of the new OS capabilities.

One last mention. MacSpeech Dictate http://www.macspeech.com/ apparently brings the Dragon Speech engine to the Mac world, so that Macs can now equal Windows in speech recognition software if that interests you.

Randall

I have really appreciated all the great suggestions. I've learned of some new, interesting applications.

BTW, though I'm getting a 2007 model, it is coming with the Leopard OS... I made sure of that.

Because this is a new start for me, I really do hope to limit my CRIMPing, and keep the number of programs I'm working with to a reasonable group. So, upon further review and based upon the recommendations here, I think the leading contenders are as follows:

Composition: Scrivener
Organization: OmniOutliner
Notetaking: Circus Ponies Notebook
And, because it is cool: Curio

I will also get Opal, to support our friend David and because I'm an old fan of ACTA.

Thanks again for all the wonderful feedback... keep them coming if you have any more suggestions.

Steve Z.

Derek Cornish wrote:

I'm also a bit confused about the relative merits of
the different Mac models (let's assume all using Leopard). What models are people
using, and why?

Derek

A mid-scale white MacBook purchased mid-2007, but now running Leopard. Sorry, I don't have the exact specs (Core 2 Duo?) because it's not with me at the moment, but I use it on a daily basis mostly for planning, writing and numerical analysis, for which it is perfectly suited, usually with a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse and an external 22-inch screen, which it drives happily.

I wouldn't use it for gaming or video editing; for those I think a MacBook Pro or a top-end desktop would probably be required. But from the Scrivener forum I understand people have successfully run writing software such as Scrivener and similarly demanding apps on previous-generation, pre-MacBook laptops - probably more smoothly under Tiger rather than Leopard.

Hugh wrote:

A mid-scale white MacBook purchased mid-2007, but now
running Leopard. Sorry, I don't have the exact specs (Core 2 Duo?) because it's not
with me at the moment, but I use it on a daily basis mostly for planning, writing and
numerical analysis, for which it is perfectly suited, usually with a Bluetooth
keyboard and mouse and an external 22-inch screen, which it drives happily.
I
wouldn't use it for gaming or video editing; for those I think a MacBook Pro or a top-end
desktop would probably be required. But from the Scrivener forum I understand people
have successfully run writing software such as Scrivener and similarly demanding
apps on previous-generation, pre-MacBook laptops - probably more smoothly under
Tiger rather than Leopard.

Thanks, Hugh. It is writing that I mostly have in mind. It was Scrivener - and the general abundance of outlining and notetaking/organizing software - that made me think about the possible benefits of switching to a Mac in the first place - that is, once my Thinkpad (A31) pegs out.

In the meantime, you've got me curious about the pre-MacBook generation laptops. This might be a relatively inexpensive way of getting my feet wet until I have to trade up from the A31. Does anyone have suggestions about which Mac models might be worth looking out for?

Derek

Derek wrote:

In the meantime, you've got me
curious about the pre-MacBook generation laptops. This might be a relatively
inexpensive way of getting my feet wet until I have to trade up from the A31. Does anyone
have suggestions about which Mac models might be worth looking out for?

There are 2 families of notebooks: iBooks and Powerbooks, the pre-Macbook generations have a G3 or a G4 CPU. I suggest taking a G4 notebook (I had a G3 iBook running at 800 MHz and 640 MByte RAM - Scrivener ran fine on that machine, NeoOffice was really sluggish; and some G3 models had motherboard problems).

The iBook family is cheaper but less robust than the Powerbooks; moreover, the iBooks only support 1.024x768 pixel (even on an external display). There are 12" and 14" display iBooks and 12", 15" and 17" display Powerbooks - so it depends on you what you need and are ready to carry around.

What is important: Put as much RAM into the machine as possible, Tiger (and Leopard) and the applications will run noticeably faster.

If you have more questions: Feel free to ask.

Franz

Kind of surprised no one mentioned tau, which I've heard is the most feature-rich Mac outliner.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I have really appreciated all the great suggestions. I've learned of some new,
interesting applications.

BTW, though I'm getting a 2007 model, it is coming with
the Leopard OS... I made sure of that.

Because this is a new start for me, I really do
hope to limit my CRIMPing, and keep the number of programs I'm working with to a
reasonable group. So, upon further review and based upon the recommendations here, I
think the leading contenders are as follows:

Composition:
Scrivener
Organization: OmniOutliner
Notetaking: Circus Ponies Notebook
And,
because it is cool: Curio

I will also get Opal, to support our friend David and
because I'm an old fan of ACTA.

Thanks again for all the wonderful feedback... keep
them coming if you have any more suggestions.

Steve Z.