Remember the Milk Gets a Total Overhaul with New Apps, New Design, and New Features

http://lifehacker.com/remember-the-milk-gets-a-total-overhaul-with-new-apps-1757330773

Most of the features require an annual subscription. I don't think I'll use it, but I'm hoping that the fact that it has start dates will give Todoist the push it needs to implement the same.

Luhmann wrote:

Remember the Milk Gets a Total Overhaul with New Apps, New Design, and
New Features

http://lifehacker.com/remember-the-milk-gets-a-total-overhaul-with-new-apps-1757330773

Most of the features require an annual subscription. I don't think I'll
use it, but I'm hoping that the fact that it has start dates will give
Todoist the push it needs to implement the same.

I applaud them for trying to remain current, or revive themselves from "almost dead" (which is not the same as mostly dead according to Miracle Max). But, I just do not see what they are offering for the price they are asking. I realize that the days of $30/yr. for services are probably numbered, but you usually offer something special before you raise rates. I wish them well.

--Ken

Interesting. Well, the new version looks pretty cool. A kind of combo of all the best bits from e.g. Wunderlist, DoItIm, TickTick and various others.

It's a huge improvement over the previous version of RTM - in particular the web interface (and offline web app) is a vast improvement; it now looks serious, and is easy to use, unlike the previous kitchen-table ghastliness. Also, it's harmonised with the mobile apps so they all look the same.

RTM's big strengths have always been: good note-taking ability (no, no rich-text support, but good support for URLs, and you can make multiple separate notes, which helps structure projects if you need to.

The new subtasks support (only available in the Pro version) is also a major forward step; not dissimilar to Wunderlist, but each subtask is a separate task in itself (similar to ToDo Cloud by Appigo).

Another excellent feature (which the cumbersome OmniFocus could benefit from) is the selection of task fields: you can fix the default fields you want in each task in the overall Settings, but also add extra fields (such as start dates) to individual tasks on an ad-hoc basis. This is an excellent approach, streamlining general task management without foregoing the really powerful functions we all need sometimes (e.g. start dates!)

No, this is a complete reinvention of RTM, and instantly brings it into line with all the other major task managers (2Do, Things, OmniFocus etc.) (like the latter, it also has labels/categories/tags, depending on what you like to call them). I think the subscription price is very reasonable. Please note that the basic (free) version still has a lot of features - the main limitations are (a) no subtasks, (b) limited sharing (with two other people), and (c) no offline web app (RTM has a separate desktop app now, but it's essentially an encapsulated web app, like TickTick's. Fast and good-looking, however).

I think this is great - I've always loved RTM's mobile apps, but grieved over the seriously dreadful web app. Now that's all changed! It's a serious contender, and I'm actually evaluating it for teamwork; it's that good (so far! I'll let you know if I find something seriously awful).

The only thing that's still, well, "idiosyncratic", is the way you can't directly "tick" task checkboxes. They essentially serve to select tasks, not to complete them; you actually tick/check the checkboxes by selecting a menu bar option. But that's always been a feature, and you soon get used to it.

Cheers,
Bill

Hi Bill,

Well, your comments inspired me to have a look at the new UI. On first glance it looks nice, and seems easy to navigate (something I wish Toodledo would seriously consider). It may be worth the price (although that is a person decision), but it does seem that they aimed towards the top of the pack among their competition, but this may be the new price point for these apps. I do like the notes feature as it is clean and easy to read. Asana's notes get caught up in their never ending stream of reporting any and every action, and it is quite hard to just read the comments. I am not sure that I will upgrade, but I might use it for a few special projects where I need to keep notes.

--Ken

Having shelled out GBP 27 or so for the Pro version, I continue to be impressed by RTM, although it does have a couple of weaknesses.

First, subtasks are very cool. They are infinitely hierarchisable (if that's a word); i.e. you can have subtasks of subtasks of subtasks. Not that I'm saying that's necessarily a good way to organise yourself, but what I like about this is that each subtask has all the same features as a main task (i.e. notes, settings, alarms etc.). This means you can organise very large projects relatively easily, something that most task managers don't handle well. It contrasts with apps like Wunderlist (and others), where subtasks are basically just a checklist (i.e. useless). I don't know many/any task managers that offer multiple layers of subtasks (actually, I lie: OmniFocus does, but is so convoluted that I've really gone off it. Oh, and so does Todoist, but again, makes too much of a meal of very basic things, like entering notes).

The lack of rich-text support is a pity. But you can add multiple notes to each task (including subtasks). What could be improved is the sorting of notes: currently there's no way of changing the default "by date modified" order; drag-and-drop sorting would be good.

Note that with a Pro account, you can sort tasks (as opposed to notes) in a wide variety of ways (including drag-and-drop, if you prefer); there are also advanced sort options.

Currently there's no calendar subscription feature. One of the very powerful features of TickTick (one of the closest equivalents to RTM in terms of model, albeit without subtasks) is its calendar support (as well as its fast sync and sharing).

RTM syncs pretty fast, in my experience; the occasional hesitation is no worse than many others.

RTM does have one minor bug: sometimes subtasks don't immediately appear in the list, even though they're clearly there (sensibly, each parent task shows the number of subtasks, so you can see they're being totted up). This is a bit disconcerting, but the desktop client has a refresh option in the View menu, so clearly the developers are aware of this particular foible.

The search function is interesting. There's a basic search that focuses solely on task names, but a drop-down box gives you access to advanced features, including search within notes and the ability to add multiple search criteria. This is quite nicely done, and certainly works well. The "Smart List" feature complements this admirably - you can create any number of lists with very specific criteria such as "tasks NOT due today or tomorrow", "tasks with no due date" and so on.

Finally, with a Pro account, you can differentiate tags by colour. I find this a useful feature, myself. Simple example, I use a specific colour for all "client" tags, so I can see at a glance which tasks are related to projects for clients vs. internal admin (etc. etc.). Of course tasks/subtasks can be assigned multiple tags. Worth noting that subtasks aren't automatically assigned their parent task's tags. On the other hand, in Today/TomorrowThis Week views, the fact that they're subtasks is clearly indicated by a helpful upward pointing arrow in the margin, and it's very easy to move directly to the parent task from a subtask (some task managers make this much more complicated than it should be).

So: still a bit of development work to do, but a very promising start for this brand-new version of RTM. Raising an interesting tangential question: with task managers becoming really quite sophisticated information managers, why doesn't some bright spark bring this functionality to outliners/knowledge management apps? I have been toying with the idea of using Todoist not as a task manager, but as an information manager/outliner, but I haven't got around to playing with that yet.

Stimulated by my last thought, I've just had a quick sniff at Todoist again (must get back to work, really!), and yes, it could indeed by used as a fairly powerful outliner.

The only downside is exporting data - not easy from Todoist (you can print pages, which means you can output PDFs if you prefer, and it automatically takes backups, but there's no other output option as far as I can tell).

On the plus side: the quick search automatically searches notes; you can set up sophisticated filters, and it uses tags ("Labels" in Todoist-speak). In short, a very useful info management app, with basic support for Markdown, although I'm not sure I'd want to use it for handling huge amounts of data (having said which, I've happily copied pages of minutes into comments in the past).

Definitely worth a closer look!

Stimulated by my last thought, I've just had a quick sniff at Todoist again (must get back to work, really!), and yes, it could indeed by used as a fairly powerful outliner.

The only downside is exporting data - not easy from Todoist (you can print pages, which means you can output PDFs if you prefer, and it automatically takes backups, but there's no other output option as far as I can tell).

On the plus side: the quick search automatically searches notes; you can set up sophisticated filters, and it uses tags ("Labels" in Todoist-speak). In short, a very useful info management app, with basic support for Markdown, although I'm not sure I'd want to use it for handling huge amounts of data (having said which, I've happily copied pages of minutes into comments in the past).

Definitely worth a closer look!

MadaboutDana wrote:

Having shelled out GBP 27 or so for the Pro version, I continue to be
impressed by RTM, although it does have a couple of weaknesses.

First, subtasks are very cool. They are infinitely hierarchisable (if
that's a word); i.e. you can have subtasks of subtasks of subtasks. Not
that I'm saying that's necessarily a good way to organise yourself, but
what I like about this is that each subtask has all the same features as
a main task (i.e. notes, settings, alarms etc.). This means you can
organise very large projects relatively easily, something that most task
managers don't handle well. It contrasts with apps like Wunderlist (and
others), where subtasks are basically just a checklist (i.e. useless). I
don't know many/any task managers that offer multiple layers of subtasks
(actually, I lie: OmniFocus does, but is so convoluted that I've really
gone off it. Oh, and so does Todoist, but again, makes too much of a
meal of very basic things, like entering notes).

The lack of rich-text support is a pity. But you can add multiple notes
to each task (including subtasks). What could be improved is the sorting
of notes: currently there's no way of changing the default "by date
modified" order; drag-and-drop sorting would be good.

Note that with a Pro account, you can sort tasks (as opposed to notes)
in a wide variety of ways (including drag-and-drop, if you prefer);
there are also advanced sort options.

Currently there's no calendar subscription feature. One of the very
powerful features of TickTick (one of the closest equivalents to RTM in
terms of model, albeit without subtasks) is its calendar support (as
well as its fast sync and sharing).

RTM syncs pretty fast, in my experience; the occasional hesitation is no
worse than many others.

RTM does have one minor bug: sometimes subtasks don't immediately appear
in the list, even though they're clearly there (sensibly, each parent
task shows the number of subtasks, so you can see they're being totted
up). This is a bit disconcerting, but the desktop client has a refresh
option in the View menu, so clearly the developers are aware of this
particular foible.

The search function is interesting. There's a basic search that focuses
solely on task names, but a drop-down box gives you access to advanced
features, including search within notes and the ability to add multiple
search criteria. This is quite nicely done, and certainly works well.
The "Smart List" feature complements this admirably - you can create any
number of lists with very specific criteria such as "tasks NOT due today
or tomorrow", "tasks with no due date" and so on.

Finally, with a Pro account, you can differentiate tags by colour. I
find this a useful feature, myself. Simple example, I use a specific
colour for all "client" tags, so I can see at a glance which tasks are
related to projects for clients vs. internal admin (etc. etc.). Of
course tasks/subtasks can be assigned multiple tags. Worth noting that
subtasks aren't automatically assigned their parent task's tags. On the
other hand, in Today/TomorrowThis Week views, the fact that they're
subtasks is clearly indicated by a helpful upward pointing arrow in the
margin, and it's very easy to move directly to the parent task from a
subtask (some task managers make this much more complicated than it
should be).

So: still a bit of development work to do, but a very promising start
for this brand-new version of RTM. Raising an interesting tangential
question: with task managers becoming really quite sophisticated
information managers, why doesn't some bright spark bring this
functionality to outliners/knowledge management apps? I have been toying
with the idea of using Todoist not as a task manager, but as an
information manager/outliner, but I haven't got around to playing with
that yet.

Reviving an old thread as I have been giving RTM another look. Not too happy about the lack of folders to manage lists, but still interested in the program as the Pro version seems to do well with notes and tags. @Bill - Are you still using RTM? And if not, what are you using instead? I am using Todoist for personal work, but not happy with how it handles notes, and I prefer a three column layout if possible.

--Ken

Hey Ken,

No, I stopped using RTM a little while ago after discussing task management concerns with my colleagues. We've gone back to using the ever-evolving TickTick, which remains a very convenient low-cost way of sharing tasks between multiple coworkers.

It's not ideal - I'd really prefer rich text in notes, but they don't have that in their current roadmap. But the range of options is very well thought-out (yes, they also offer start dates under "duration"), it's very quick (also very quick to sync), works on multiple platforms, integrates with Calendar etc. etc. From my point of view, it's a bit of a compromise, but then so are most task management apps.

What I also do, however, is keep a mini-todo list just for today's key tasks, either in Unclutter (which lives at the top of my Mac screen) or in Bear. I suppose I should really use TickTick's tagging facility and create a "today" tag, but sometimes it's just better to have stuff in a simple, separate list - especially if it's a project subtask. I then update my notes in TickTick once I've completed today's task. Again, it's a compromise, but actually works better than struggling to create increasingly complex outlines, kanban charts, complex catalogues with priorities etc. etc. And my coworkers can also see what I'm doing!

I've come to the conclusion that task management is just very difficult, period! And increasingly feel that a central repository of tasks with notes accompanied by a personal side list of stuff you've got to get done NOW is probably the closest thing to an efficient task management system. Otherwise the whole thing just becomes overwhelming.

Cheers!
Bill

I've come to the conclusion that task management is just very difficult,
period! And increasingly feel that a central repository of tasks with
notes accompanied by a personal side list of stuff you've got to get
done NOW is probably the closest thing to an efficient task management
system. Otherwise the whole thing just becomes overwhelming.

Same. I go through that cycle of my brain telling me I need more complexity to get a good handle on my tasks, then my habits prove otherwise as the complexity just becomes another unmanageable project. Looking back, it's been the most simple tools that I've used more effectively for longer periods than the powerful ones. Wunderlist is probably the best example of that. I've been with ToDoist for over a year now but I keep abusing the nesting and struggle with keeping the right simple/complex balance.

Because of the desktop outlook integration, I've started using Microsoft To-Do for work tasks and I'm really digging that 'my-day' feature. In theory, it's no different than just putting a date on a task to ear-mark it for today. But in practice it works much better for me. Manually dating tasks to force them to be on my 'now' list always created the extra task of re-scheduling the uncompleted ones at the end of the day. This was annoying to keep up with. I also generally have a separate 'now' list to dump all the random work stuff that comes up every. Stuff that's generally too small and quick to bother with putting on a master list. Dumping into 'my-day' is a pretty solid fusion of combining these two flows.

So now I'm trying to decide if I want to use it for personal tasks too. Generally, I try to be on one platform to minimize the friction of the little interface differences. I'm starting to think that's a bad reason since most tools these days so learning or forgetting an interface isn't much of a thing anymore. I deal just fine with personal gmail and work Outlook. I don't think I want the two worlds showing up in the same 'today' views anymore. So with To-Do, I think I'd have to switch between work/personal accounts to make that happen. That doesn't work when wanting a 'quick capture' option for both worlds at all times. I'll likely roll with To-Doist for personal, and To-Do for work and see how that goes.

The irony about that is because my home task situation is MUCH simpler than work. Work is a constant stream of new inputs (tens per day), home is a trickle (tens per week). Work projects are more numerous and complex. So if I try to flow work through a complex task system (like todoist can become), it quickly becomes just too much to manage. I can only manage fast and simple and can't take the time to define and categorize every next step or I'll just drive myself insane. This works out because I'm able to have longer times to focus on these projects. Personal tasks aren't as numerous, but they are more disjointed where I have 15 minutes at a time a few times a week to deal with them instead of a whole day of work dedicated to that list. Like a medical bill where I keep asking for and forwarding dumb info over the course of a few weeks. That's a good application for defining the next steps and putting in contexts because it's not an overwhelming thing to manage and it's actually an efficient workflow.

So yeah, feature-rich task managers for low frequency work, simple and dumb for an overwhelming task situation. Makes total sense. I'll probably change my mind in six months.

MadaboutDana wrote:

I've come to the conclusion that task management is just very difficult,
period! And increasingly feel that a central repository of tasks with
notes accompanied by a personal side list of stuff you've got to get
done NOW is probably the closest thing to an efficient task management
system. Otherwise the whole thing just becomes overwhelming.

Cheers!
Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the reply. I almost went with TickTick, but their handling of subtasks was a bit of a deal breaker for me. I live in subtasks and just having a list didn't work for me, especially since I could not tag the sub task. OTOH, RTM does not have folders and that is a bit annoying. Sometimes I want to view a group of projects (lists in RTM) and that is not really possible. It is in Todoist, but their notes are not visible and they do not employ a three-column layout. So, this is why I have stuck with MLO for the past year or so. It has almost everything that I want, but the UI needs work, and it is not cloud-based.

And yes, task management is difficult. It is one reason that in spite of all of the software that I have at my disposal, there are pads of paper around my desk that I sometimes use when I just need to concentrate.

--Ken

nathanb wrote:

Same. I go through that cycle of my brain telling me I need more
complexity to get a good handle on my tasks, then my habits prove
otherwise as the complexity just becomes another unmanageable project.
Looking back, it's been the most simple tools that I've used more
effectively for longer periods than the powerful ones. Wunderlist is
probably the best example of that. I've been with ToDoist for over a
year now but I keep abusing the nesting and struggle with keeping the
right simple/complex balance.

Because of the desktop outlook integration, I've started using Microsoft
To-Do for work tasks and I'm really digging that 'my-day' feature. In
theory, it's no different than just putting a date on a task to ear-mark
it for today. But in practice it works much better for me. Manually
dating tasks to force them to be on my 'now' list always created the
extra task of re-scheduling the uncompleted ones at the end of the day.
This was annoying to keep up with. I also generally have a separate
'now' list to dump all the random work stuff that comes up every. Stuff
that's generally too small and quick to bother with putting on a master
list. Dumping into 'my-day' is a pretty solid fusion of combining these
two flows.

So now I'm trying to decide if I want to use it for personal tasks too.
Generally, I try to be on one platform to minimize the friction of the
little interface differences. I'm starting to think that's a bad reason
since most tools these days so learning or forgetting an interface isn't
much of a thing anymore. I deal just fine with personal gmail and work
Outlook. I don't think I want the two worlds showing up in the same
'today' views anymore. So with To-Do, I think I'd have to switch
between work/personal accounts to make that happen. That doesn't work
when wanting a 'quick capture' option for both worlds at all times.
I'll likely roll with To-Doist for personal, and To-Do for work and see
how that goes.

The irony about that is because my home task situation is MUCH simpler
than work. Work is a constant stream of new inputs (tens per day), home
is a trickle (tens per week). Work projects are more numerous and
complex. So if I try to flow work through a complex task system (like
todoist can become), it quickly becomes just too much to manage. I can
only manage fast and simple and can't take the time to define and
categorize every next step or I'll just drive myself insane. This works
out because I'm able to have longer times to focus on these projects.
Personal tasks aren't as numerous, but they are more disjointed where I
have 15 minutes at a time a few times a week to deal with them instead
of a whole day of work dedicated to that list. Like a medical bill
where I keep asking for and forwarding dumb info over the course of a
few weeks. That's a good application for defining the next steps and
putting in contexts because it's not an overwhelming thing to manage and
it's actually an efficient workflow.

So yeah, feature-rich task managers for low frequency work, simple and
dumb for an overwhelming task situation. Makes total sense. I'll
probably change my mind in six months.

Well said, and I concur. I am not sure my level of new tasks and subtasks is as bad as yours, but I would agree that anything too complicated can get in the way. That was one reason that I wanted to see about switching from MLO to RTM. I really like MLO, but the UI is a bit clunky and it creates just enough "friction" that I do not want to use it. I was hoping that RTM might be a bit more conducive to quick entry, but as I said above, all of the usual suspects seem to have a fatal flaw or two for task management the way that I like.

--Ken

For your purposes, Ken, it sounds as if you should take another look at 2Do. It's been evolving at amazing speed, and the latest version is a cunning blend of simplicity and complexity. You can read all about it here: https://www.2doapp.com but I'd suggest bashing the tyres a bit and seeing what it feels like.

I like 2Do, I must say, but don't have quite the same needs as you do.

Cheers,
Bill

MadaboutDana wrote:

For your purposes, Ken, it sounds as if you should take another look at
2Do. It's been evolving at amazing speed, and the latest version is a
cunning blend of simplicity and complexity. You can read all about it
here: https://www.2doapp.com but I'd suggest bashing the tyres a bit
and seeing what it feels like.

I like 2Do, I must say, but don't have quite the same needs as you do.

Cheers,
Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the recommendation. I remember the early versions of 2Do when I was using Toodledo. Unfortunately, there is no web-based version that I can use at work.

--Ken

MadaboutDana wrote:

Ken, it sounds as if you should take another look at
2Do. It's been evolving at amazing speed, and the latest version is a
cunning blend of simplicity and complexity.

I'm grandfathered in to a pro subscription to 2Do but I have had a hard time getting to grips with it. The app does not really do subtasks. In HOME I created a list called Movies, and then realized I couldn't create sublists (Comedies, Thrillers, etc) each with their own checklist.